Tami: [00:00:00] hi, Michelle. It’s lovely to see your face. Hi Tammy. It’s so good to see you. So we are, I’m feeling very sad. We are coming to the end of our grief road.
Michelle: [00:00:11] We’re having some grief about the ending of our
Tami: [00:00:14] grief series. A true story. I think we might have to do like a redo at some point, maybe a seasonal tune-up because I have very much enjoyed.
This podcast series and I’ve gotten so much feedback that people are like, wow, thank you for doing this. Like, this is really like a lot of people, like, I never thought of it like this and the other people are like, I haven’t had anybody to really talk to about grief. I didn’t know. That was a thing.
And other people are just like, thank God. Somebody’s finally having the conversation about don’t be a Dick when other people are grieving, because it’s terrible.
Michelle: [00:00:55] And just to remind her that none of this. Has been, or is meant to make you feel badly about yourself for things that you have done in the past when you didn’t know.
Otherwise, like I have heard from a few people who have said now, I just know what an asshole I’ve been, but you know, we’re all doing the best. We all have this intention. Of course, we don’t want other people to. Be hurting and in pain. So we, none of us have been taught really great skills. So if you haven’t been taught, you don’t know you’re doing your best, and now we can just practice doing a little bit better every
Tami: [00:01:28] time, a hundred percent.
And also, I will just say, I fully plan, maybe not plan, but I fully expect I will be a Dick to somebody in their grief in the future. Absolutely because I don’t know about you. I’m not perfect. Even though I have a giant stack of resources sitting on my desk, as I know you do too. So one of the things that I wanted to do.
Is, I want you to share your favorite grief resources with me because hello, I am that person. That’s like, oh, what are you reading? Let me get it. I’ll do it. What are you listening to? And I will do the same for you. And then of course, firstname.lastname@example.org slash podcast.
You can find any of the, get better at grief series. And you can leave your favorite grief resources there so that we can, this is like a, when you go out on a date with somebody that somebody, knows it’s like a pre it’s, like a pre-approved credit card slash a date. We’re pre-approving these books and resources of like, these things worked for me at one time, they might work for you.
You might get it and be like your resources. Suck. But, I doubt it. And of course I’m like I have some nonspecific grief resources that help with grief also, which I’m going to include too. So Michelle, why don’t you get us started? What are your things that you’re like, these are my go tos.
Michelle: [00:03:07] I know that we’re going to have a lot of crossover.
So before I found. The book it’s okay. That you’re not okay. Which is probably one of my favorite resource resources. Now I, I know that we both love it so much, and that is such a great book because she just talks about it in like our language and has a lot of great tips, a lot of great stories. It’s all very relatable, very real.
Love it. Love everything about it. Before that, Some of my favorites were,
Tami: [00:03:43] Broken
Michelle: [00:03:43] open by Elizabeth lesser. And I read that so many years ago and it’s not real, right. It’s not really a grief book per se. But that’s, it’s a wonderful book. The wild edge of sorrow by Francis anything actually by Francis Weller.
He is incredible including like interviews and whatever you can find with him. I think he was on our favorite Bernie brown podcast. So, yeah, he’s great. The other side of sadness, which I know is one of yours as well. The dance of anger by Harriet Lerner. Love me some Harriet Lerner. She was also on our gals
Tami: [00:04:29] podcast.
We just got to bring Bernie up straight away, but Bernay and Harriet Lerner are like buds and whenever they talk, I’m like, oh, Oh, hello friends. And we get
Michelle: [00:04:40] to live smart friends. Oh yes. Amazing. And yeah, I, I love everything of Harriet’s. I love the dance of anger related to grief because it really does allow us to access this much shamed emotion.
Tami: [00:04:57] So
Michelle: [00:04:58] for, there are a lot of books, we’re not talking really specific. Types of loss. There are books for death by suicide, accidents, crime. So of course my sort of specific area is pregnancy loss. And one of the books that helped me so much is called a silent sorrow. And I’ve really.
I really like held on to that book for some time. So I’d say those are the books and yeah, I, there are also some other resources I’ll just like kind of quickly go through. There are a few good websites. What’s your grief, which I know we both love refuge and grief, which is Megan Divine’s.
Website, and then compassionate friends that is for family, family loss, and then the creative grief studio, which is where I did my creative grief training. And they have a website with just resources. They have like support resources as well as. Resources for people who are in grief. So, that’s a great place to check out.
And then actually I have a few articles written that are on the yoga, anytime blog, and we’ll link to those because that’s where the unexpected symptoms of grief is surviving the holidays and the Christmas and Bush. When, when grief hijacks, you.
Tami: [00:06:37] I love that we have a bunch of crossover. So when I read the subtitles of Elizabeth lesser and Megan Divine’s books, because it’s like, it’s like, it’s like the perfect painting. And then you’re like, I made it more perfect. So broken open subtitle is how difficult times can help us grow because a lot of people don’t don’t know that there can be tremendous growth after loss also.
There does not have to be a silver lining on your, this fucking sucks situation. Just so we’re clear, but there can be that being said, I loved broken open. It’s okay. That you’re not OK. Meeting grief and loss and a culture that doesn’t understand. And I have to tell you, I tried to read this book before tests died and I was like, Oh, there’s so many words or so many things.
And then the moment that I was in acute grief, again, I savored every single syllable, another book. I love modern loss and it’s just it’s essays by people who have lost. Significant others family. I was like, again, I feel seen bombed people here. A book I absolutely love because I’m like Enneagram.
Like I like me some categories. Like, how do I fit in? So a book that Anna sent me and I guess jelly is the five ways we grieve finding your personal path to healing after the loss of a loved one. So when this really helped me, because then I could see how, when I lost my mom, how my brother was grieving, what kind of griever was he?
I could see how other people were grieving and I could be like, ah, ha. I see what you’re doing over there. You’re not wrong because you’re doing it differently than me. There are apparently a number of ways to grieve and the author is Susan a burger, and it really helped me be way more compassionate with people in how they do things.
Allen D Wolfelt PhD, this guy, he is. What is he? He has a center for loss and life transition in Colorado. He’s got a whole series of books and this guy was recommended to me because I was specifically looking for resources to help my kid grieve. Because she was very close to tests. And now she’s at an age, like when we lost my mom, she was still a very literal thinker.
And now she’s getting into the more abstract because, oh my God, when you kids don’t get it, they don’t get death and tell eight, nine, 10, before that questions come at you, like here’s a favorite. Your mom’s still dead. She’s that? That was like literally for years. And I’d be like, yeah. Are you still sad about your dead mom?
I’m like, yeah, I am honey. She ever coming? No, she’s not. She cause you know, it’s like your brain can’t handle that cause it’s not ready. So this was the first significant. Loss of somebody that she had a very close relationship with. And so this guy, Allen D Wolfelt has books for like how to grieve with kids, how to grieve the loss of a sibling or a spouse or suicide or whatever.
And so, and they’re kind of formulaic, there’s like very little text on the page, a quote, an action. Oh, my God. I was like, why is this guy in Colorado? My new best friend. It was so comforting to get these books to be like, oh, okay. I only had to take a little bit of action today. I only have 3% reading comprehension and how can I help my kid?
How can I help myself? So another book that we got Because I of course asked the internet and the internet. It’s very like, let me tell you what help my kid. And that is the healing book facing death and celebrating the life of somebody that you love by Ellen Sabin. And so it’s a book where you’re, there’s writing prompts.
And so it’s all about feelings. And then there are remembering things and pictures and. It’s it’s super helpful because it’s like an activity book for kids.
Michelle: [00:11:17] Yeah. So just to punctuate, it’s a kid’s book.
Tami: [00:11:21] Yes. This is a kids book, but I have to say, I don’t think it would be terrible even as a grownup to get this because a in acute grief let’s be real.
I’m not smart. I don’t know about other people, but I’m like, no, nobody’s a real adult, but also if you’re somebody who’s like.
Not doesn’t have a PhD in feelings like myself. Like you might need some prompting to be like, okay, what does this all mean? How do I feel? How is this affecting me? So this, this book has been very helpful for our family. And then our friend Holly Holt dropped off the, the grief forest, a book about what we don’t talk about.
And. It’s it’s a picture book. And it’s for kids. I just air quoted for kids. I got it. And I sobbed my eyes out. It was so, the simplest thing can make a really deep impact. Yeah. I feel like it’s one of those, one of those books. It’s very sweet. And then not specific. To grief. I loved Megan.
Morgan’s the end of me because she’s had three near death experiences. And so one of the things I think that comes up for people, especially when they’re losing someone that they love from death is their own mortality. Yeah. And you’re like, what is even happening? So I have had, in my experience, these giant moments of clarity about like, why I’m never doing XYZ thing again, but like it’s as clear as day, like this will never happen again because you see there’s brief glimmers of.
Your person died in parentheses. You’re going to die too someday. So make use of the time that you have stop messing about. And I feel like that’s a really good book and Megan’s a great author and you can hear her voice in it. She’s she’s lovely. And a friend of ours it’s fabulous. Radical acceptance, embracing life with the heart of a Buddha.
I mean, there’s nothing more. Humbling than being like, I can do nothing. I there’s nothing I do. It’s doesn’t matter how good I am, how well I grieve how much I love it doesn’t matter. The fact of the matter is, is when you’re a person has gone, they’re gone. Now, of course, this is, from the agnostic perspective of like, We’re starting to see orange butterflies, which I’m like, I think that might be test because she’s hanging around when we’re like having a meal and stuff, but like, there’s no amount of like, she’s not going to walk through my front door.
Right. And that really bums me out. But again, as this practice of like, God, there really are only. There. Well, there’s only two guarantees birth and death. I mean, people say death and taxes, but I’m like conceivably, you actually could, commit tax fraud, but you can’t cheat death. Right. And so radical acceptance.
And then another one that people are going to be like, what, why grief? Why, why are you talking about this and the grief resources. And that is the power of receiving a revolutionary approach to giving yourself the life you want deserve by Amanda Owen. Nice. And the reason I bring this up is as culture, we’re very individualistic, right?
Like where the, the lone cowboy who’s going to ride into town and save everyone on our own. Like the American motto myths is what that’s called. Right. But the I, but the thing is, is like, yeah, I have not yet gone through grief alone because I’m too busy needing people to feed me care for my child helped me with paperwork or whatever, the like logistical things.
And so unless you have a recognized practice of reciprocation between. Friends and intimates. Yeah.
Michelle: [00:15:43] If those parts of the podcasts have been hard for you or made your little prickles stand up, then that would be a great
Tami: [00:15:51] resource, a great resource. And towards the end, it does get a little wooo not going to lie to you.
So take, take all of these resources with a grain of salt, take what serves you, leave the rest, and then maybe later other things will come, but this book helped me. Stop feeling like I have to do everything on my own and be some sort of expert about everything. Which is hilarious because I’m like, let me eat all of the information I can about grief.
So you mentioned what’s your grief, it’s a website and it’s highly searchable. So you’re like grief for blah, blah, blah. There’s probably an article or a podcast and it’s a podcast and it’s a podcast. So if you’re, if you’re not reading with your eyes, as a lot of people did not do increase, they would like to read with their ears instead.
That’s a great resource. There is a documentary about grief that now I can’t remember what it’s called, but if you go to The refuge and grief website, there is a documentary, I think it’s like, so we’re talking about grief or something. And after test died, I sent it to a bunch of friends who were also experiencing the same loss and they all watched it and they were like, wow.
Yes. It’s, it’s like an hour long documentary, kind of what we’re doing here with moodier lighting. Very professional. What’s your grief also, what’s your grief? And I don’t know if it’s specific. I don’t know if it’s going on this year, but one of the things that helped me is they actually had a free grief in COVID class because grieving during a pandemic, when you can not be around, anyone was its own special bucket up.
Flame and poop. And so it was a great class. It was on like one of the online platforms. And so, but it was also interesting because it was a collaboration between the grief professionals yeah. Of what your grief. And I think like the funeral directors association or something like that. So they had put together this online class rice, and of course I’m always going to sing the praises of bereavement support groups.
Through your local hospice or health system. Both drop-in groups, as well as close, closed groups, which are for a specific amount of time with a specific facilitator where your people are the same. And I know I said this before. Just because you try it and you hate the people in the group doesn’t mean that that’s not for you.
It means that particular group is not for you. You may find solace in a different group or a different facilitator. So don’t give up if you’re like, okay. It turns out I hate these people because
Michelle: [00:18:46] I also want to mention the Douggie center because that’s, they do amazing work again around lost within families.
And they have a podcast called grief out loud.
Tami: [00:19:00] Yeah. And the Douggie center is for it’s or adolescent grief like kids and adolescents, but there’s tons of stuff for families and they’re in Portland. But again, the pod, the podcast is really well done and they have tons of resources. Another one is the national Alliance for grieving children has a lot of resources and Sesame street.
If you have really little kids, if you Google like death and Sesame street or grief and Sesame street, of course the people at Sesame street and have handled this well kind of like how back in the day, Mr. Rogers handled big issues, like grief, divorce, war, assassinations, all of that. Well, right. So there’s resources for whatever stage of life you’re in or.
Or whatever stage of life, the people around you are in and how we grieve at eight is going to be different than how we grieve at 18 or 28 or 38 or 88, whatever. So your grief needs and resources will probably change over time.
Michelle: [00:20:09] Yes. And I just want to throw out as well, like we’re. Giving all kinds of ideas of really fabulous pre-approved resources that we have loved, or that have helped us.
And also like you can’t read your way out of grief, like if that’s kind of your process, if a part of your process is being really engaged in that way and, learning and relating and getting information. And if that’s a part of your process, great, but I’m, I’m also a fan of like pick a book.
Just throw darts at a wall of all the ones that we’ve outlined and just pick one and let that be kind of your guide post. And for me at this point, I would say it’s okay, that you’re not okay. Is probably that book that I would recommend for that purpose. But you know, it could be any of these.
And so. You might be the person who tries to, have a little library or you might be the person who’s just like, I’m going to try one of these books and if it works, it works. And that’s what I’m going with. Also, if podcasts are your thing Our friend and everyone’s best grandmother, Pema, Chodron, like pretty much anything by her also speaks to grief because well, she’s Buddhist and they just do it so well with the suffering and whatnot
Tami: [00:21:43] detachment.
So, oh, I forgot one. And that’s one. I specifically listen to that. I was like, boy, I could have used this, like. In my late teens in that is anxiety, colon the missing stage of grief, a revolutionary approach to understanding and healing, the impact of loss. And the author is Claire Bidwell Smith. And I thought, I read it.
Then I was like, no, really this could have come in handy. And you’re like, but you guys said the stages aren’t for it. Well, the good news is that Claire reels you in with the stage of grief and then says that’s for the dying and just spoiler alert. The stages are still not a thing. And I was, cause I was like, don’t ruin this book for me by being wrong about that.
And then she was like, just so we’re clear, I’m clear that that’s for the dying. I just like to pull people in with the title, right. Well, the stages
Michelle: [00:22:46] aren’t real, but anxiety is,
Tami: [00:22:48] oh my God. Anxiety can really wreak havoc when you were in loss. Yeah. And show up
Michelle: [00:23:00] as so many
Tami: [00:23:00] things as we’ve talked about. Yeah.
Yes, it can. Yeah. I’m laughing because I’m like, I call it Well, my anxiety button gets stuck. I’m like somebody can somebody unstick this, please resign peanut butter around my anxiety button. And why is it so sticky now? Yeah. Can you think of other other resources for folks? I think,
Michelle: [00:23:32] I don’t want to overwhelm you with too many options.
I feel like we’ve given some really good things. And in addition to just this whole series, if you go back and listen to any of the prior episodes, sort of, like, oh, well, right now I need this one in this situation, or, oh my God, I need to hear about the symptoms again. Any of them are going to sound different.
You’re going to get different things out of them. Each time you listen to them, just because of how much our brains can take in and how much it kind of blocks. So I think this is an amazing resource for
Tami: [00:24:05] people and know, thanks for saying that. And again, for tons of feedback that other people that are not on the microphone right now, also think that but one other general.
Guiding principle for just not feeling like shit is the book self-compassion by Kristin Neff. Yeah. And Chris or also has a bunch of self-compassion books. And again, it’s that idea of like, you’re practicing mindfulness, you’re paying attention to like, like where, where you’re losing your shit. And perhaps you’re not.
Talking in hyper hyperbolic language. When you’re talking about yourself, like you’re the worst person in the world, and maybe you’re not also thinking that everyone, except you has their shit together. Perhaps other people. On the inside. Look as messy as you are on the inside. And that we’re kind of all bumbling through this together, and sometimes we’re better at it and sometimes we’re worse at it and we’re making repairs and amends and we’re kind of trying our best.
Michelle: [00:25:19] Yeah. Just the fact that we’re human and we don’t like to think about being human as being really, really messy and often extremely uncomfortable and full of polarity and contradiction. And so just know that however it is right now is you are doing it right.
Tami: [00:25:44] Michelle says you’re doing it right. And I will, I will let you know that, how we say that in my house. And I know I’ve said it a million times on the podcast and that is, we’re all doing our best. And sometimes even your best sucks, but that’s what you got right this second. So just roll with your best.
You’re like I’m doing my best and. So is everyone around us. So maybe somebody is doing their best when they’re starving. They’re like, I’m so hungry. Now I’m hungry in that moment of hanger, you’re doing your best, right? You’ll probably do better after you have a sandwich, right. Or sleep or whatever it is that you’re currently not up to what you need.
Right. If you’re doing it consistently, you’ll probably feel a lot better.
Michelle: [00:26:32] The compassion piece is huge, starting with self and then extending. It’s just, it’s like a basic life skill that should be in elementary
Tami: [00:26:43] school. Yeah. It’s it’s pretty funny. Cause then I was like, but then teachers would actually have to have that skill too.
It’s like, cause you can only teach what you know. Right. And so it’s like, well this would be a revolution if we had it and somebody was teaching it and then we could all, but you know, we could all practice it and then imagine how different the world would be. If it was more passionate.
Michelle: [00:27:12] I was just thinking that like, can you imagine the revolution that would
Tami: [00:27:15] happen?
Yeah. I just want to say one thing and it’s both patting me on the back and Michelle on the back, and I do want to take this opportunity to say, Hey, Michelle, thanks for doing this with me. Hi friend, would you like to come on my podcast and times or row? That’s like kind of a big ask and she, of course was like, yes, cause I’m here, but we have rescheduled recording this particular show.
Are we up to like six times?
Michelle: [00:27:47] Yeah. And I, I’m not even sure.
Tami: [00:27:51] I, I honestly am like, it might be conservative to say we’ve rescheduled at six times and the last one. Michelle thought I was dead in a ditch. Cause I just didn’t show up. Which I don’t know if you guys don’t know this I’m super reliable. So Michelle was like, no, really?
Are you okay?
Michelle: [00:28:10] Like, are you, are you okay? Is everything
Tami: [00:28:13] okay? Turns out. It’s like, I completely erased my mind and left the house. And for the first time in my life did not bring my phone somewhere.
Michelle: [00:28:26] I mean, it was hot. You had to go
Tami: [00:28:27] swimming. It did, it was hot. I had to go swimming. Yes. But I also had rescheduled this thing like three times in a week.
So I guess I was like, we’re never going to record it, but, and here’s the good part. I felt really bad because I was like, I worried my friend and crap. Now we don’t have this show, but then my daughter said the Sage you’re going to just have to forgive yourself. It’s okay. That you made a mistake. And I was like, who is raising you down there dearly
Michelle: [00:29:01] clearly?
Tami: [00:29:02] Yes. And where did that come from? And can I get a little bit of that?
Michelle: [00:29:06] She is, she is a little Sage.
Tami: [00:29:09] I mean, she is indeed. She touched them. They’re a big stinker, but sometimes she busts out some good stuff. So the children’s. They are, they are wise. They are wise sometimes. Any parting words before we go.
Michelle: [00:29:28] I, just for people to reach out, if they want to reach out to us, follow us on the IgG or, reach out, leave a review on the podcast of course. And
Tami: [00:29:40] share it with your friends and family share it.
Michelle: [00:29:43] Absolutely. And, and yeah, I, I don’t really have any parting words just other than thank you.
Thank you for the courage. To the people who have listened to this. Thank you so much to you. Obviously my grief bestie for being surreal and making this happen and letting it be in the world.
Tami: [00:30:02] Thank you. So where can people find you online? You mentioned Instagram. I met Tami Hackbarth and you are
Michelle: [00:30:09] Michelle Marla
Tami: [00:30:10] Han.
We’re so close for, with our naming. And if you guys want the show notes for the show, or just want to learn more about the work that I do in the world, you can find email@example.com and where can we find you? Michelle?
Michelle: [00:30:23] Golly, try Michelle Marla
Tami: [00:30:25] han.com. So, again, we’re super clever with our naming. So Michelle has tons of grief resources on her website.
She does do a creative grief work with people. So if you would like to explore more grief work specifically with Michelle, go to our website, check out our offerings, follow us on Instagram, reach out. And like we said, we would love to hear from you. We would love to hear about your grief resources.
And if you have questions hit us up on the gram or you can check us out on our websites and until next week, remember that you matter too.