We’re going to talk about something that is going to be sensitive for some people. We’re going to talk about grief and what do you do if you’re not part of an established religion.

Or don’t have a strong faith-based belief system. In case you’re wondering, I fall into this category and I want to help others who fall into this group because so much of the grief literature and the grief resources like support resources are faith-based.

Show links:



Tami: [00:00:00] Hi, Michelle. Hey Tammy. I’m so glad you’re back. Okay. We’re going to talk today. Last week we talked about the myth of the Griff, the myth of the Griff than the myth and the ground, the grief, the timeline. That was way harder to say. Wow. So just to refresh or there isn’t one. And if you want some tips on how to set some.

Everybody’s favorite word, excellent boundaries around that. Check out our episode from last week today, I gave a little teaser at the end of the episode. Last time. We’re going to talk about something that is, is going to be maybe sensitive for some people. We’re going to talk about grief and what do you do if you’re not part of an established religious.

Community or don’t have a strong faith based belief system in case you’re wondering, I fall into this category and I was like help other people who fall into this category. Can you help me? Because so much of the grief literature and the grief resources like support resources are faith-based. And I was like, okay.

I’m just going to go out on a limb and say, the last thing I need when I’m in this particular state is to be like, you’re trying to push Jesus on me. I’m not interested. And I don’t have really good manners right now. So what’s your experience with this? What do you say to people who are like, how 

Michelle: [00:01:36] well, this can also go into this can go into the category of what not to say.

Oh, the whole, like, it was God’s plan. 

Tami: [00:01:45] Okay. Really? That, I mean that I’m shaking my head in, like don’t ever say that to anyone don’t under any circumstance, unless they go to church with you then y’all have out each other that’s between to use. But unless you’re sitting in a Pew, when you say that Nick said shit.


Michelle: [00:02:05] Right. Yeah, this is, there are kind of camps here, aren’t there. And I think there is a lot more, I think it’s one way that people find last episode, we were talking a little bit about me, meaning but I think it’s how some people find solace and they find. It’s not quite meaning, but like reason or it just makes them feel better.

Right. And there’s a harm in that 

Tami: [00:02:34] also ritual. I mean, I’ve been to several funerals where. Like, if you haven’t been to a Catholic funeral lately, like then that’s a to do. And I got it intellectually because I, it wasn’t my primary loss. I was an attendee and I thought, Oh, I get this.

There’s like, everybody knows what they’re supposed to say. And they know where they’re supposed to Sant stand and what to wear and what to say to the family. And. The songs and the prayers and all of that, I was like, Ooh, this is orderly. And so I get like, I get it. And apparently in other faiths, there are other very solid traditions.

Like, this is what you wear. These are the kinds of foods that you eat. Like I get it. 

Michelle: [00:03:22] Yes. Yes. And it can provide a lot of grounding, especially if that’s something that the person has been raised in some kind of doctrine. That’s very familiar that can also feel like a little bit of control, which we’ve talked about.

And yes, it can be also really beautiful and ceremonial and be a part of our process. Absolutely. But what if that’s not you then where do we go? That is the question. 

Tami: [00:03:58] That is the question. And one of the things I did was cause I, you know, I’ve experienced this was I wrote a little blog post guide called the agnostic.

Girl sat the sassy agnostic girl’s guide to grief. Cause I was like, I have to like give people some resources because I reached out after my mom died and was like, Oh, to all my non-religious friends and like help me. I can’t sort through the Jesus books right now, please help me. And Anna guest jelly was like, I got you girl.

And she just sent some great books to my house. And I was like, I’ve never felt so loved because books are my love language. So, so if you if a listener is experience or in saying great loss and they do not have a religious tradition to lean into what are some resources that you would point people to?

Michelle: [00:04:54] It’s coming to mind. It’s really interesting. The chiropractor that I see a couple of weeks ago I had gone. I think I hadn’t I hadn’t seen him since my surgery. And so it was my first appointment back and we were just chatting and casually just casually. He mentioned.

Yeah you know, my mom died and so we’re making some changes or whatever he was saying about it. And I didn’t know if he meant, you know, recent or. Years ago. So I inquired and I just said, so, so you’ve mentioned that your mom died, you know, when did she pass away? And he said, Oh yeah, it’s been two weeks now.

And I was like, Oh my God, boy, 

Tami: [00:05:38] in case you’re wondering, see the last episode where the most helpful thing you can say in this situation as well, that just happened. That just happened. Just happened. Yeah. And I mean, I remember that’s two weeks, two years. Whatever it just happened. 

Michelle: [00:05:54] So we had a very real moment, which I actually just super appreciated and he was really grateful for like, thanks for being someone.

I can just say that to, and we had a whole conversation, but here’s the point that relates to what we’re talking about. He said, Yeah, the first week I just couldn’t stop crying. And then I started watching videos and reading about near-death experiences. And it’s been really comforting because I feel like not only is it possible.

But I feel like my mom actually is still here. She’s in this very lovely place. And I said, Oh, have you watched this series on Netflix? And I’m trying to come up with a name. And he says, yeah, surviving death. And I said, yeah, that’s it. And the first episode on that series is about near-death experiences and there are some really just absolutely.

Fantastic stories from people who have gone through near-death experiences. And so, you know, that was a way for him to connect with something. We might call it science. We might call it psychology. We might call it kind of, I don’t know, some people might call it new agey or something like that, but yeah.

That’s what he went to that didn’t feel limiting. It felt more expansive. It felt like it did give him some basis and some kind of understanding and possibility for what happens and where his mom is. And he said, now I just really, like, I feel her clothes. I I just know that she’s in this really lovely place.

It was so interesting to hear him talk about it. 

Tami: [00:07:44] It’s is it because I feel like these conversations come at an, with unexpected frequency and with unexpected people in unexpected places, right? You’re like, I’m just there for an adjustment and he’s like, Oh no, you mean like five minutes ago, your mom died.


Michelle: [00:08:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that’s I just think that story came to mind really quickly, but I think also science and psychology are both great places to go. And we’re not the psychology that talks about the stages, not the type of psychology that talks about a timeline, but the books that we’ve recommended.

Those are great resources to start with. And then what I might call like more heart-centered grief resources. There are classes on art or You know, maybe a retreat or a workshop on nature and grief or things like that are just more, heart-centered more from a feeling place more from the acknowledgement of seasons and cycles of life.

Tami: [00:09:02] Yeah. It’s because it’s. So one of the things I found to be really helpful was in-person grief support group. Okay. And it was right. And so it was like a bereavement group offered through hospice. And if you don’t know about hospice yet there’s a lot of misconceptions about hospice. And one of them being is like, Oh, those are the deaf people.

They’re the people that help people die. It’s like, not really what they do is they perform, they provide support for the person who is transitioning through that part of the life cycle. And then they offer support to the family. During the process and then after their person has passed. And so if you are somebody that is like, Oh my God, I don’t know what to do.

I need to talk to people that know what they’re talking about. If you grieve, if you grief, if you Google hospice and the name of your city there, there’s usually some sort of. Support group and they’re because they’re through hospice. They’re not usually religiously affiliated, so it can be super helpful.

Bereavement I’m in one right now through my through Kaiser, which is the nonprofit healthcare system that I’m with. And we are we’re. I love it because it’s a 10 week closed group. We’re meeting on zoom. And what I love is that I call it my grief book club because there’s two facilitators, one who was actually a minister and I love him.

His name is James. Hey James. Because he’s the chill minister. He’s not trying. He’s like, this is he’s like, if you’re a person of Christian faith, this is some of the things that might happen, but he’s not trying to like convert anybody while we’re there. And he’s not saying there’s no absolutism to how James presents himself in this group.

And then there’s another Laura. Hi they’re facilitators. And so we’re going through the book understanding your grief, 10 essential touchstones for finding hope and healing your heart. Do you know this book, Michelle? I don’t know that book. It’s Alan Wolfelt. Oh yeah. This guy is a prolific writer who He is an author educator and grief counselor.

And he listened to this guy, he’s the recipient of the association of death education. And counseling’s deaf educator award. Wow. I know that kind of stuff. I’m like, if you guys don’t know about like death, doulas and stuff, there are people who like, help. Much like a birth doula helps the people. We need help doing these things.

It’s like, it’s rough on the person who’s dying and the people around them. And then, so there’s comfort with people and there’s like some death doulas offer like mental health support and some deaf doulas offer like legal cause there’s lot of paperwork after people die. Right. So they helped shepherd you through that process.

Yeah. So this guy, this author, Alan Wolfelt is the director of the center for loss and life transition. And he’s based in Colorado, but I’ve read several of his books. Like he’s got one for kids. He’s got one for that. He’s like this grieving heart series. And it’s like, if you lost your sibling, there’s.

Grief exercises for people who are grieving their siblings. If you lost your spouse, if you lost your child, if you’re helping a child through grief, if you’re parenting through, if you lose your mom or dad, and it’s like, it’s one of those things where you’re really happy. And by the way, I’ve read most of them.

So there’s a lot of overlap, but if you’re somebody who has lost your sibling, when you read a book about grieving a sibling, the way that they do the exercises and phrase, the exercises is like, you don’t have to substitute your own relationship. You’re like, he’ll say your brother or sister, or your sibling in there.

And you’re like, this person is really speaking to my heart. Yeah. Now this is this I, and I didn’t know about this series or this author and tell another grief friend. Hi, Sharon. . She sent me it’s okay. That you’re not at okay. Yeah. Which I’m like, I need to recommend that book to everyone in every instance, all day long for everything.

And if you want to follow that’s her name is Megan and she’s on Instagram at refuge and grief. And I spent a lot of time commenting on her stuff. It’s so, so good. 

Michelle: [00:13:59] I think a lot of this could be like reference back to harken back to episode. Was it 80? Three, what to do when you’ve lost something or someone.

So there’s some crossover here that might be a good episode to go back to and relisten. 

Tami: [00:14:19] Okay. Yeah. It’s like, get your get your, here’s your checklist for all the things that usually the people that you call. Absolutely. Yeah. 

Michelle: [00:14:28] Yeah. But if, you know, if we’re talking really just instead of.

Religion. I mean, some people, it’s interesting to think about some people categorize spirituality, like I’m spiritual, but I’m not religious. So you might already have some built in. Spiritual practices that you don’t necessarily call that, but that are available to you, like making an altar and alter doesn’t have to be a religious thing.

It can just be my definition of an alter is any intentional collection of any number of objects. And so you can make an alter to your person or your thing, your situation You might meditate. I mean, we could call meditation kind of a spiritual practice. It can, it doesn’t have to be called that, but like, you know, that crossover of spiritual and religious 

Tami: [00:15:21] and you know, I’ve had like lots of existential conversations with friends, family, the mailman therapist about this, because I have some, I have baggage around organized religion.

And so it took me a very long time to be able to swallow the words, spiritual, but not religious because I am so not religious. And yet I think I am pretty spiritual. Yeah. And so if you’re in that place to where you’re like, okay, this doesn’t, or you’re somebody who’s like this stuff doesn’t come up in my regular life, but now that.

I have lost something significant. I mean, cause there’s, there is this thing where a lot of people go in search of something in search of an answer in search of comfort. Yes. In search of connection in search of community. And as I will say, when I lost my first friend, Carla, when I was 19, I did go to church a few times.

Yeah. And I will say it was so very unsatisfying that I had to do it several times to be like, maybe I was in a bad mood. Maybe that sermon just rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe I, okay. It turns out that wasn’t for me. I mean, I could write it income, tired dissertation about why it wasn’t for me, but I was still drawn to maybe that’s where I’ll find answers to this anguish.

I feel. Yeah. 

Michelle: [00:16:48] Yeah. And I think sometimes just that the process of searching. The searching itself becomes a part of our grief and part of our larger process of integration. And so it doesn’t need to be also, you know, Oh, I wasted that time or, Oh I, you know, went the wrong road. It’s just, that just becomes a part of what we’re exploring and the sense that we’re trying to make of things.

Tami: [00:17:19] Yeah. And also, you know, some people do find solace in established traditions at particular moments in time because they make sense for that thing. Absolutely. Like, you know, maybe the person that they. Our grieving was very religious. And so it’s like, we’ll maybe that’s where I’ll find peace, because that connects me to my person.

Michelle: [00:17:50] Yeah. You might find yourself going to church or back to church for a short period of time or for a long period of time. I was raised many things, but ultimately Catholic and I love mass. Like I love you. Sit you stand, you say the thing like you described, and there’s just something really reassuring about it.

And there have been times where I just might go to the cathedral, not even during a mass, but just to be there. And there is a different sense of. Of time and space and the felt experience of being in a church it’s like, yeah, time does change the air changes. And I don’t consider myself a religious person.

So that doesn’t mean that you have to cut it all out. It just, you know, what’s your relationship with it. And what, where do you feel drawn? What feels like it might be supportive and. Follow that there, it doesn’t have to be forever. It doesn’t even have to fit. It can just be something that you try out like Tammy and then that wasn’t it.

Okay. I, because I’m not religious, I didn’t do a lot of church stuff around the loss of the baby, but I did have a ceremony and. It was like developing the ceremony. I wrote it all out that in itself was just gave me like a sense of purpose. It gave me somewhere to really express all the things that I wanted to express.

And we had you know, a bowl of water. We had pedals we planted a fig tree. Buried. I buried some ultrasound pictures. So, you know, I had my own thing that I would call like extremely, it was a very spiritual experience and the ceremony itself was exquisite. It was so beautiful. There was poetry.

I mean, it was exactly what I wanted it to be. And. So that’s the beauty of creating our own stuff. Is it gets to be what you want it to be not defined by this is how we do it in the church, or this is how the funeral goes and, you know, yes. If you have to have a funeral, you have a funeral, but that doesn’t mean you can’t also have your own thing and your own touches that are meaningful and 

Tami: [00:20:17] personal to you.

I know it’s funny because I. I, you know, I’ve been to lots of funerals, I would say. And every time I go to a funeral, I think I need to write that in my book of me about like, how I want this to go. Like, I want to orchestrate mine. Cause it’s very, I’m like, Oh, that’s a no, that’s a, yes. That’s a no, that’s a yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So when we talk about what’s the science, we have a note that says science. 

Michelle: [00:20:48] Science. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would call that in line with my chiropractor friend, you know, what you might get interested in, what happens when you die. You might get interested in just. Life in general, you might get interested in the scientific part of grieving.

So like we talked about in our symptoms episode, you know, what happens biologically to us or what can happen. So some people just lean more toward that kind of what they might call more fact-based data-based and then psychology might. Have a little bit of a different slant. 

Tami: [00:21:35] How would that look different?

You think? 

Michelle: [00:21:37] I think there are many more approaches psychologically where, you know, like in any of the books that we’ve referenced, everybody kind of has their own take or their own approach or their own thoughts on, and. So reading a breadth of things, or if you find something that you like, you know, really going into one kind of idea or not necessarily a system, but just letting yourself be guided by one particular theory.

If that’s what works for you. Like the it’s not okay if you’re it’s okay. If you’re not okay. You know, she kind of has her way of talking about it and. Whereas somebody else this male author that you’ve mentioned, he might have a slightly different approach. 

Tami: [00:22:29] Yeah, it’s funny because it turns out that I definitely gravitate towards the people who are like, you know, you should do a ton of self-care and like, let it bubble up.

You know, it’s like all this very permission based and compassion based. Stuff. And the idea that like, you get to create your own experience, it’s like, choose your own adventure kind of, and by choose, I mean, let’s see what comes up and then be kind to ourselves about what comes up and how it presents and how we deal.

Yes. Instead of it being, you know, scripted, timed and judged, right. 

Michelle: [00:23:14] And for many people, I know we, I, we keep talking about nature, but for many people, you know, nature is their cathedral. And that can really be a soothing place to go where things do make more sense where there is a certain order to life.

So, you know, for those who aren’t into religion what. You know, what is your practice or your philosophy. And can you move deeper in that if it’s supportive? 

Tami: [00:23:46] Like how would you say that has looked for yield? Because like my place, there’s an intersection because we’re in a very specific part of Northern California and that’s the intersection of the ocean.

And thousand year old Sequoia Redwood trees. And that’s like heaven on earth for me. I like the smell of the Pacific ocean with a particular grit of sand. And those S like ancient trees. It makes me feel insignificant in the most humbling, comforting, possible way. Yeah. And so I’d like, I’m that person that, so just in case we ever meet on a trail, I’ll be verklempt and maybe crying because I know that ocean and those trees are going to be, they’ve been here for generations before me, and they will be here for generations after me.

Yep. And that shit that’s my church right there. That shit’s deep for me. Yeah. Other people just are like, it’s cold, it’s windy. And it kind of smells like rotting trees. Like I don’t get it. Right, 

Michelle: [00:24:59] right. Yeah. I’m the same way. And I actually just remembered that right after the baby died. I, it was again January and my dad and his wife actually winter.

Down South in Arizona. So they, weren’t where I grew up in their home. And, but that’s where I wanted to be. I just wanted to go home, which is a very rural mountainous. Country land. Like it’s very small town, nobody around. And so that I went there for, I don’t know, several days and it was really nice actually because they weren’t there.

I got the whole place to myself. I went on hikes every day. I found bear poop one day. So then my hikes got shorter. But I went to places, you know, from my childhood and I got outside a lot. And. It really was. I, that was just my medicine. And then my other kind of nature medicine is that I almost always on anniversaries want to be around water.

And I think we’ve talked about that, but that’s, there’s just something about it. That’s, especially those early days. It’s all I wanted. I’m like, I just have to go, I’ll find a puddle. I have to go find a body of water of some kind and. Yeah. Being an and again, it’s that kind of perspective that we can get when we’re outside, but especially like you’re talking about, and these really sacred old generations eons old thousands of years, old places, rock formations, forests, waterways, oceans, and.

And, you know, just go there and let yourself be held. You can whale, you can scream. You can stomp. You can be by yourself. You can go with a friend it’s just really, it can be quite magical.

Tami: [00:27:04] So what we’re saying is that not all pieces found in prescriptive ritual. And that we can create our own ritual. That is, it provides that same, it scratches that itch. Like if you got an itch for ritual, you can create that for yourself. And. And you’re not weird. I just, you know, I think I, it just in case anyone’s wondering about my inner dialogue, it’s like, you’re doing it wrong and your weird comes up a lot. And I find comfort in hearing that I am not the only person that’s like, but that thing that seems to work for lots of people doesn’t work for me.

So how can I create something that does work for me? So that I can experience the benefits of having done a thing, but make it my own. Yes, 

Michelle: [00:28:03] absolutely. Absolutely. And for some people, words like spiritual or sacred or ceremony or ritual or alters are fine. And for some people, you know, that doesn’t work either.

And so you don’t have to call it anything. Just what suits you? What makes sense? What helps you make sense? What gives you solace? And you don’t need to explain that to anybody. You don’t even need to understand it. You don’t have to understand why just go with it. Like 

Tami: [00:28:39] let it be there for you. Can I ask you a question please?

Okay, good. I don’t know why I said that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna try that again, Michelle, I’m gonna ask you a question. Great. Because this is something so I, so in case you guys don’t know Michelle, and I’ve been friends for. I don’t know, 13, 14 years. How long have we been runs? No, I think it’s 

Michelle: [00:29:01] been longer, but 


Tami: [00:29:04] that.

Okay. Maybe 15 years. Would you say that I have changed over that time, Michelle? Oh my God. I wish we could bring former me back. 

Michelle: [00:29:13] That was pretty old Tammy. Back on the podcast. 

Tami: [00:29:16] I know she is a hoot. That bitch is funny, but I was less open to say, I don’t know anything. And I also lived in exactly one place and that was in my head.

So we may have lost people like a half an hour ago. And for those of you that are still here, Bravo, if you’re still here to like, what the fuck are you talking about? I w maybe we should have started with this. And that is. Like, we’re like, let’s Intuit this like, feel what you feel, blah, blah. But what if you’re somebody who like really lives in your head?

And so you’re like, girlfriend, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, how do you know what you need? Like, how do you if somebody is a head liver, how do we get them into there? Body and into that space where then they can feel what feels right. Because the reason I say that is sometimes if you’re like do it feels right.

People might go to a numbing behavior because they don’t know that it’s numbing. It feels comforting because the pain is muffled, but there’s a difference between. Comfort and numbing, there’s a difference between, do you know what I mean? You know what I’m getting at? Yeah, I do. Yeah. 

Michelle: [00:30:44] And I, in some ways this might sound kind of weird.

This during grief is kind of a hard time to just all of a sudden start a practice like that. Because if you are in your head a lot, not that your head, isn’t part of your body, but you know, to be in the felt experience of yourself to be more in touch with the entirety of you and your feelings.

Then I think a decent place to start is just either a book and, or. Talking to someone getting a therapist which we’ve covered, but then at least that person is going to coax you a little more into how you feel, which when we talk about how we feel, we’re automatically a little more in touch with our bodies because our bodies are, we’re interpreting the emotion through our bodies.

So, you know, that’s kind of a little gateway And then, you know, advanced practice might be taking some kind of or doing some kind of physical activity, be that a hike or, you know, could even be no, probably not a CrossFit class, but some kind of extra, some form of exercise movement that has you feeling your physical self.

And I think those two kind of being a little bit on different ends of the spectrum might help a person just remember like, Oh right, okay. I have a body and I’m moving my parts around and my parts are having sensations and I’m having feelings, but that’s it. That is not an overnight thing. You know, that is a practice and a process in and of itself.

Tami: [00:32:31] Right. It’s funny that you say that because one of the things, so the reason that Michelle and I met is because here’s a big surprise. Somebody significant in my life died my stepdad. And at that time I was getting like weekly massage every other week massage. Sometimes it was weekly and my massage therapist was like, okay, this I’m S I love you so much.

I cannot. Squeeze you into, I cannot squeeze yo grief out your body lady. You’re going to have to help me out here. And I was like, just tell me what to do. And she’s like, There’s this place called it’s all yoga to which I said, what did I say, Michelle? That’s the dumbest name of overheard and now I get it, but I didn’t get it.

Cause you remember, this is like, this is judgey asshole, Tammy, that, by the way, it’s super funny. See how she laughed. She said there’s basically this angel straight. From heaven named Michelle Marley Han go to it’s all yoga and take a class with Michelle. And I was like, how is this woman going to help me?

And she was like, she’s basically going to squeeze all of the ugly Burghley’s out of you. She’s like, because your grief is stuck in your body. It’s like, there’s not enough massage for it to get out. And I was like, okay, I’ll pretty much do anything at this point. Cause I need help. And so I did start.

Going to classes with Michelle and the combination of getting frequent massage and doing yoga. And it wasn’t just so we’re clear. Michelle yoga is not endless sun salutations and like her personal home practice. She has, you do some weird shit with like, can you move your ankle one quarter of an inch?

And you’re like, what’s happening, but it does get you in your body when you’re super focused on doing one particular thing. And she asks. It’s almost like a coaching session in that she’s asking you to be right there in that moment and experience the sensations from the inside out. And it was mind blowing.

And I was like, what is even happening here? Because I was experiencing my body in a different way. And through, like I said, Massage and therapy and yoga. I was like, Oh, I’ve had some things stuck in here for awhile. And once it got moving, I was like, Oh, 

Michelle: [00:35:03] okay. Like that combo 

Tami: [00:35:05] approach. Yeah. It was a big one.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, just to be clear. Did I cry when I went to yoga? I did. Did I cry when I got a massage? I did. It’s like they squeeze the tears out of me in a good way. And it wasn’t embarrassing after a while. I mean, cause I was like, I can’t believe I’m crying and both my, you know, Michelle and tests.

We’re not my friend who died, but my massage therapist tests, we’re both like, Oh thank God. The dam is broken. Like just, you don’t have to be ashamed of your tears. You’re processing your body’s helping you. Can we went from Jesus to like, Michelle’s helping me squeeze the grief out of my body, but you know, that’s how we roll around grief, podcasts, episode stories here.

Like we’re giving you lots of tools. And one of those is to get into your body because you know, when we talked about symptoms, like, I don’t know about you, but when I. Was grieving. My mom, I felt like I had a wet wool blanket inside my skin. And I was like, is it kind of hot and humid and really heavy in here?

And, you know, I don’t feel that way anymore. Right. And with each lawsuits, I have felt physical differences.

I don’t know why, but I did. And I have 

Michelle: [00:36:44] no, I mean, after each last year at different persons, so it makes sense. 

Tami: [00:36:50] Yeah. That whole thing 

Michelle: [00:36:51] you’re different. 

Tami: [00:36:54] The order of the universe. And now you’re in this sway this time. Yep. Yeah, totally. Do we have anything that we want to else we want to talk to our friends about?

Michelle: [00:37:08] I think that’s pretty thorough. I can’t think of anything else. 

Tami: [00:37:15] Okay. Cool. All right. So 

Michelle: [00:37:18] I mean, I’m sure we’ve missed something, but I think that’s, it’s a good starter 

Tami: [00:37:22] plate. I like that. That’s an appetizer. Yeah. An appetizer for if Jesus ain’t your homie, this is other things that you can do or any other, I don’t know, but other people call their person.

But next week we’re going to tack tackle how to be with people who are suffering and in pain, how to get comfortable in the discomfort of holding space for others. It is. I’ll just give you a preview. Michelle’s hella good at it. And I learned from her some really good stuff. And so next week you will hear from her as well.

And we’ll give you some actions and actual things to do. Because some people are really much more suited for tangible action. And so we will help spread that. Goodness, next week. So you 

Michelle: [00:38:17] want to send to your 

Tami: [00:38:18] friends? Oh, a hundred percent. Like, like star it and hold onto it and maybe send it out in your newsletter.

If you’ve got one, maybe in your Christmas letter we’ll give you some tips on how to be helpful. So until next week, remember that you matter. Okay.