EP 71: Finding Our Own Leadership with Naomi Hattaway

EP 71: Finding Our Own Leadership with Naomi Hattaway


Tami: Good morning. 

Naomi: Good morning. 

Tami: Oh, glad that you’re here. So for my friends who have not yet had the pleasure of meeting you yet, Naomi, can you tell us who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Naomi: That’s such a good question. There was that thing that went around a while ago. And I think it was a, from a poem where it was I am of, or I am from, did you ever see that where people, and I have always loved that because I think that part of who we are is such a patchwork of where we came from.

I am. In my mid forties, I am post-menopausal. I’m the mom of three. they are twenty-five 17 and 14. I’ve been married to my husband for going on 18 years and I am a problem solver. I’m an avid book reader. I used to be a wonderful gardener, turned. Subpar in Gardner recently. and the work that I do in the world, intersects between being a bridge for gaps that I see and.

Also a Firestarter to bring others in the community along to carry on the work. I used to, when I was younger in my career, always looked at it as a bad thing that I would jump into a project, get something started, and then I would leave it. and then recently I’ve been able to reframe that as, being a Firestarter that I bring along others to carry on the work, in the way that the community needs it in the future.

So. That’s a short answer. 

Tami: I absolutely love the idea of reframing how you talk about yourself. Cause I used to talk about myself as being like a professional procrastinator or somebody who didn’t finish. Yeah. And I’ve had to reframe that my procrastination isn’t that I’m waiting until the last minute, because I’m lazy or useless it’s because I am sleeping it, dreaming it, bathing with it.

I am chewing it up. I’m digesting it. I’m coming around to it. And by the time I opened my mouth or put my fingers to my keyboard, what I produce is pretty much a first and final draft 

Naomi: of the most things. I love it. 

Tami: but boy was that really hard to come to terms with. And also I’m not a huge finisher, so you don’t want deal.

I hire part of my family success team as a finisher work with a professional organizer. She’s the one that takes the stuff to the thrift shop. Or my husband does, I just want to play to our own strengths. So tell me. How does this play out in your professional life? This being a Firestarter and a, I see a problem and I want to help fix that.

Naomi: I think so. In the last five years I’ve done primarily nonprofit work. before that I was a full-time volunteer when we lived overseas, because I couldn’t work because of work visa situations. And then I also run and own my own real estate company. So I think in all those instances, I just started to realize.

The beauty of true collaboration and not just collaboration as a buzzword, but really finding folks that have different skillsets, different strengths, even when they’re uncomfortable for me. because we really do go farther together. And so with my non-profit work, I’ve learned to be very clear with my future bosses or future board of directors in saying these are the things that you’ll want to find someone else to do similar to what you were talking about, Tammy, Here are the things that I am not great at. And so if you ask me to put those on my job duties list, you will be disappointed. and being able to clearly state that at the beginning has been enabled me to sit very firmly in the things I’m great at. And to your point about finishing, making sure that there’s someone on the team or at a Beck and call to be able to have them come in.

and the other thing too, about not being a finisher for me, I have had to learn to sit on my hands. I’ve always been a hand raiser. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. And someone told me very wise suggestion that the more I sit on my hands, the more it enables someone else to fill that space by raising their hand.

And I think about that a lot too. if I am silent just a little bit longer, someone else will volunteer. Or if I don’t jump in. And it’s not that I’m trying to pass the buck it’s that someone else has a better skillset to finish or to pull things together or to professionalize a project than I do.

I think it’s also a part of how I work in that, I guess seeing a gap sometimes can be looked at as complaining or a negative Nelly or, Squeaky wheel. But I think part of what I bring to the table is also a diverse set of options for solving the problem so that it’s not just, Hey, here’s this big hole in the road that we’re coming up to.

It’s, we could go around it, we could build a bridge over it. We could turn around and go a different way. and I think that’s something that I’ve learned how to hone is being able to present options to people. So then as a collective, then we decide what’s best for the group. 

Tami: Okay. I have so many things to say about this one is by chance.

This is a question I haven’t already presented to you. Have you taken the strengths finder? I have. Okay, because I feel like we might have some intersecting strengths because I’m like, girl, you are speaking my language on so many levels. 

Naomi: Well, I can tell you my top five, but I don’t 

Tami: ever remember 

Naomi: the rest.

Tami: Oh. And the rest are irrelevant to me as far as I, I only tell me your top five, 

Naomi: my top five are futuristic input. Yep. Arranger. Okay. Individualization and connectedness. 

Tami: Interesting. Mine are input. Hi. We like to read, learner and the strategic and activator. So I like to say mine are, I like to read, I like to collect things for you to read.

I feel your feels. I have solutions to all of the problems and all of the world, and I won’t take it personally. If you just choose one, like I’m not married to the answer. The answer. I am married to an answer. Like I don’t see a problem without a solution. 

Naomi: Because there’s multiples, right? Oh my God. 

Tami: One of the things I loved about being a teacher, as I was always like, okay, here’s a multiplication problem.

Solve it in any way that comes to your mind, but you have to be able to explain it. And this drove other teachers crazy. They’re like, why don’t you just teach them how I’m like, cause these fools teach me stuff all the time. And this one kid who had such an. Different way of looking at how to solve a problem.

I was always like, okay, dude, stand up, teach us how you did that. Take us through your thinking. And I would poke at it and poke at it. I was like, okay, well, what if you try it with these numbers instead, he’s it’s still works. And it was such an interesting dialogue to have with a nine year old for them to be able to really get into their thinking.

I was like, shut up. You totally taught me something. I’m not a hundred percent certain that it works in all situations. However, if I had never asked the question, I would not know that there was different ways to think about this. 

Naomi: Well, and think of that. Think of that exact same thing that you just said in a team environment with other adults.

I am. If I let myself be surprised, if I let myself sit. In the space and the quiet or the stillness, or to your point, ask someone else to step up and show their work. Yeah, always I’m like, Oh, that’s a better way to do it. plus it enables their own growth too, as a person, I think that we in work. so often that hierarchy stunts.

Our own growth and to be able to do what you did with that. Nine-year-old and some of the ways I work with my team, I mean, talk about showing others that they have something to add to the solution also. It’s great. 

Tami: Also you, I mean, if you, Hey guys, if you don’t know this yet, if you ask people for their opinion on how to get things done, boy, let me tell you get a lot more, buy-in on actually getting the thing done.

Cause I even wedded to how it’s done. I’m just wedded to that. It’s done. 

Naomi: Yep. I think I would agree with that and add that sometimes you don’t even have to take any of the solutions that were offered to have the buy-in. So I think a lot of times people get scared of asking for. 20 people’s opinions, but it’s the process of the dialogue and yeah, the engagement.

Tami: Well, it’s the whole sheer fact of being asked. 

Naomi: Yes, 

Tami: absolutely. So it’s funny. Cause I did a listener survey of the podcast last year and I asked people for feedback. And one of the feedbacks I got was I love hearing about all these entrepreneurs, blah, blah, blah. But what about people? I call them civilians.

Civilians are people who work for other people who bring other people’s dreams to life who work for the state or work for an association or do nonprofit work. so that brings me to you do a little bit of all of that, right? 

Naomi: Yeah. what crossed my mind as you were saying, the difference between that?

I think that, I have, yes. What is Jean of the civilian work is that you are asked to be creative and bring your best self inside someone else’s construct, where as an entrepreneur, you get to redefine your box every day. If you want to, And so the current work that I’m doing in nonprofit and part of the reason I decided to run for office was because I started getting frustrated with the policies that I was being asked to work underneath.

In non-profit, especially in the housing space, in the youth and talent retention space, there was just a lot of moments where I was like, Oh, if only we could do this way, then I was like, Oh, but that’s a policy issue. And then the more I sat with myself, the more I realized that my next iteration is the responsibility to rewrite some of that, through legislation.

So. Yeah, I guess the answer to that question in a way that wasn’t really what you were asking is that yes, I’m I work in all of those spaces, so 

Tami: this is probably a good time to let our audience know the reason that Naomi and I, our paths have crossed is because we are part of a community of women over 35.

And one of us is running for public 

Naomi: office. 

Tami: It’s not me. Can you tell us, can you tell our listeners what you’re running for and how did you come to this? You’re like, I see a problem and I think I’m the one that needs to help try to fix it. So what are you want for in 

Naomi: my past those problems that I’ve seen have been things like.

Starting a school tour for kids that arrive in a foreign country over the summer and need to see their school grounds. And now my problem that I see fixed is like on a city level, but, I’m running for Omaha city council. Omaha is a Metro of about a million people in the middle of Nebraska. And the city council has seven seats and they are all up for reelection in 2021.

And I would like my name to be on district sixes, representation. So, yeah. and you and I connected because you, offered to just spend some time talking through some early strategy, and I saw appreciate it, and I’m so glad we’re connected 

Tami: you and I have chills every time a woman says. I think I’m going to run for office.

I mean, I kind of feel a little bit like Jimmy Stewart 

Naomi: and it’s 

Tami: a wonderful life. Every time the bell rings, it’s not an angel, get their wings. It’s a woman, signs up to run for office. And I am the lucky recipient of hearing that bell, I think more often now than ever. And people whisper to me. I think it’s part of my job as a coach.

People love telling me their secrets and one of the secrets that. More and more women are saying as I think I’m going to run for office. 

Naomi: Yeah. Which is amazing. 

Tami: yeah, it is. 

Naomi: I think interesting. It gives me chills. I think that we are on a press pissed. Praecipe why can’t I ever say the right word precipice of praecipe as a legal document.

Precipice is the edge of the cliff. I think we’re on the edge of also it being a little bit more. Transparent to know what it’s like to run for office. I think that I have gathered so much information from other women who have run and it’s kind of like childbirth, it’s hard and there’s some pain and it’s amazing.

And then yet when you talk to people who’ve been through it, they’re like, Oh yeah, you should do it. And then period. End of sentence. And then you find yourself in the middle of it and you’re like, Holy hell, this is something, 

Tami: I never, I did not become a mother through a birth, but I imagine it’s like being in labor in your life.

I was just kidding. I don’t know if I want to do this and they’re like too late. You’re already. Yep. 

Naomi: Well, it’s the same as, I mean, you can assign it physical pain to the process of childbirth. but it’s anything, it’s the act of parenting. It’s the act of, showing up for your community. It’s deciding to protest anything that takes you through a wild range of emotions in a short amount of time.

I think you can liken to running for office, except that you bared your entire soul to a lot of people who you don’t know. I decided to run for office, for a couple of reasons. One, because I know in my heart and with all every piece of intuition that I have that 2021 for our city for Omaha needs leadership that is accessible, that is connected and engaged with the actual humans that our elected officials are supposed to serve.

And going back to that collaboration and that commitment to. Community excellence. we don’t have that in our city council right now. And I know that I can bring that to them. if you look at it on a surface level, being black and white, biracial, I checked the box for a physical representation of diversity that we also need on our city council, but I’m also, I also identify as a disabled person, due to a chronic illness and an accident that I had, that needs to be represented on the city council.

and. This is the thing that excites me the most. I know how to speak the language of multiple folks, not actual languages, but the way that we speak and the way that we get things done and the way that we connect with each other. And that’s also sorely missing. So there’s not a whole lot wrong with the dude that’s currently in office.

and so I’m excited about that actually, to just run a race of who is the better leader, Instead of it becoming a nasty thing. So that was a lot of words, Tammy, 

Tami: but, and they’re, but they’re such good words. And here’s the thing I want to, I feel like part of my mission in life is to demystify people taking.

Risks and specifically people, demystifying, people being involved civically. what’s been interesting over the last four years. I mean, I have a degree in political science. I worked in politics for a decade. I did everything from lobbying to fundraising, to grassroots, organizing to constituent services and the capital.

Like I did a little bit of everything looking for my slot in that world. I did not find it, but I feel like it, that my slot in the political world is being created for me because people are there. I think of their politics, curious, but they’re afraid of it. And I’m like, Oh, I can totally help you demystify things.

And when I am in the teacher, demystifier mentor, let me hold your hand and give you some tips. everyone shines. Yeah. And it’s super duper exciting for all of us. 

Naomi: It’s also what I think that I’ve watched you do through your social media, through your podcast and through, like you mentioned, with the, community of women over 35.

Is redefine what civic engagement looks like. It doesn’t have to be running for office. It can be writing postcards. It can be learning by watching a script of how to call your representative to say, I don’t think I agree with this, or would you consider this it for some people it’s protesting, for some people it’s voting, so I think that’s politics and civic engagement feels scary until you and you do a great job of it.

Break it down. So it’s quite sizable for people where it can meet them, where they’re at. so I, I appreciate that from you. 

Tami: Thank you. That is definitely what I’m trying to do. And it feels like exciting work in it because it’s a way, that makes it accessible for people who feel like, Oh, that’s for old, that’s for them over there because they know more.

And I’m like, Oh no, your mom. plenty. Oh no, you’re a teacher. I’m gonna tell you what, way enough, like also we don’t have to be experts in everything too. Shouldn’t be 

Naomi: actually 

Tami: exactly to be, to affect change. Like we are able to come together. 

Naomi: Well, and I think that’s something that I also, I would add to the why I’m a better candidate than our current representative.

I hear so many times, and sometimes it’s typically a male dominated response. like everyone, I did not know everything and we need leadership. That’s willing to say, I do not know the answer to that question. And then either open the door to say, can someone else help me understand? Or even just say, I mean, this would be amazing.

Give me a couple of days and I’ll come back to it. 

Tami: because feel like that’s a parenting one Oh one lesson, 

Naomi: right. Well, 

Tami: I mean parenting teaching, I mean, kids, when I was a teacher, kids would come up to me and they’d say, I want to do, yeah. They would say, Oh, do you know XYZ about blah, blah, blah, dinosaur?

And I was like, you know what? This has never come up in my life. And this is, I realized what I’m going to say might sound rude to grown up ears, but hang with me. I would say I’ve never cared about that. So I didn’t take the time to look it up. But 

Naomi: I’m saying it 

Tami: right, but you who has the natural curiosity about that, you might become our classroom expert in that thing.

And they’re like what I’m like. Yeah. Why don’t you become the classwork classroom expert in that thing that maybe only you are interested in. And, then let us know how it goes, because also through you sharing your expertise on that thing, I might become excited and maybe I will want to learn about the thing, but that hasn’t struck my fancy yet.

So please go forth and become the expert. And they were like, you’re weird. Okay. I’m like their libraries over there. I don’t care about trains or dinosaurs, but bless your little heart, the blush a little hearts there. 

Naomi: So I think that’s fantastic. One of the, state senators, when I was doing gun violence prevention work said to me, cause I was like really hard on him for not understanding the knowledge that I knew.

And he’s I can’t know. It all literally physically cannot. So I would love, and he did what you just said. I would love for you to bring me back a three page no more, please. Just three pages on the things that most, you know, that where we could have the most impact. And that was when I first started realizing, we hold our leaders to a really unattainable pillar of knowing the right thing to say immediately rapid response and knowing everything and it’s not tenable.

and so I want to, through my campaign starts to normalize letting a leader, ask questions back. 

Tami: Absolutely. Well, the other thing that has come up is that people feel like that they can’t have an opinion on something. Unless they are an expert, but here’s the thing. I just want to take this veil down.

People who run for office and people who win, they are human beings and I’ve seen, cause I’ve been on both sides of the proverbial table. I’ve been a lobbyist where I go and I educate legislators about stuff. Or their staff. And a lot of times they’re like shut up. I didn’t know that. And you’re like, I know, right?

And they’re like, Oh, my person who I work for will be very interested in that. And they usually say, do you know anyone who this is directly affecting? And then you’re like, I could parade 15 families that this is going to harm, or this is good. I can parade 15 families that this is going to help. So the thing that changes the minds of people who are in office.

Is education. 

Naomi: Yeah. 

Tami: and education coming from real people. Oh, my, it is the most effective, 

Naomi: well that too. That’s another example of a civic engagement moment. Being the advocate to help connect those 20 families with the elected official is a beautiful form of civic engagement. so I think that’s the other piece for people that are listening, who maybe don’t want to run for office, or don’t want to go testify at a city council meeting.

If you know of something that’s about to go down in your community and, have people that will be adversely or positively impacted, You can just be the convener of those voices in those stories. 

Tami: Yes. And you can write letters. I am a public, I’m a public comment or like nobody’s business. I don’t want to talk in a microphone.

The irony of me is saying that whilst I’m on a microphone, right. The second, however, I am in my house and no one is looking at me. but I love leaving public comment because those things that get counted, so, okay. So can you speak a little bit about. cause I’m just going to say it. I know there has to be a doubt of no way here.

I’m going to tell you guys I’m real. Well-versed in the subject of imposter syndrome. I like to wear my imposter syndrome Cape, like. How do you, how did you, I’m going to go out on a limb and say you probably suffer from it because most people do, but, so how did you tango with that notion of, I don’t know enough in order to make this step.

Naomi: So, it’s timely for you to ask that question. I just had a piece that I wrote published in darling magazine, about this very thing. And when I started, so I’ll back up just a little bit. I broke my leg in an accident in December, and so I’ve been, quarantining before the quarantine and started to write my memoir.

Mostly for myself. but I started to realize that the through line of my imposter syndrome was not knowing enough. I was homeschooled as a child before it was legal to do so in the state of Nebraska, the board of education would not award me a diploma. So I got my GED when I was 30 and pregnant in a room full of incarcerated folks, all handcuffed to their tables.

And I think that’s part of that input with my strengths. I am, I’m so hungry for knowledge, and it’s only been recently that I started using my own quotes and my own statements as valid things to share instead of other people’s words. And so my imposter syndrome does look like not knowing enough, what I’ve been battling with and will probably continue battling with is removing it as a day-to-day piece of my life.

And I visually put it in a corner. I put a chair literally in the corner of my office so that my fear and my imposter syndrome can just sit there. I. Want to be able to keep my eye on it, look at it, acknowledge that it’s there. another candidate told me recently that she reminds herself I belong here and there’s no better time for me to be than right here and right now.

And that has also resonated with me. imposter syndrome is a real thing and it can be debilitating. But so far what’s worked is that visualization of yeah, I see you over there in the corner where it’s not going to impact my work. 

Tami: I love that. So many people feel like they have to beat back their fear with a stick.

And I’m like, well, that does make your fear. Want to fight you 

Naomi: a lot of energy though. 

Tami: That’s a lot energy. Exactly. And so one of my, practices. That I learned from one of my great teachers, Rosie Molinari if 

Naomi: you don’t know yet, 

Tami: Rosie, she is an excellent teacher about, body positivity and just basically awesome living.

She has a book called beautiful. You love it. but anyway, Or one of her things is one of the exercises in her book. Beautiful. You is to name your critic. And so my inner critic’s name is blanche. Oh, she has a filthy mouth and that girl she wants to keep me so safe. She doesn’t want me to do things like cross the street or speak up at about anything.

And so I kind of have to hug her like, Like of mouse and men style. Like I’m gonna squeeze you and love you and hold ya. And it’s the 22nd hug. If I hug her for 20 seconds, she’ll relax a little bit and maybe listen, right. It’s it’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay. she’s constantly screaming, but what’s the worst thing that can happen.

And I’m like, I now plant thanks for always reminding me to look for the terrible things. Thank you. I think I, I’ve never had a day in my life where I didn’t think the absolute worst. Right. So in the last few years, since I have stopped trying to fight her, I have been asking her in counter to that.

And that is, yeah, but what’s the best thing. And so when I think of you running for office, like some people would say, Oh, the worst thing that could happen is that you lose. And I’m like, Oh, friends, Oh my God, you are so shortsighted. So not the worst thing. However, the best thing that could happen is that you could actually help the people in your community.

Right. You could do that. That would be the best part. Right? Well, there’s that, 

Naomi: there’s actually a beautiful thread of things that can all be woven together just in the act of running that can, hold up the mirror to our elected officials in a sense of what is your responsibility? And are you.

Measuring up to what you said you would do, reminding others that it’s possible. I got a message last night from a gal who wants to run for something and she just gave me some encouragement and I have never been so empowered and encouraged. By watching the way that you’re running for office. And I think that’s what it’s about too, for my daughter and for my friends, and for those in my community.

that’s what, that’s the best thing that could happen. 

Tami: Absolutely. So I do have a question. Did you, or did you go through a, I’m a first-time candidate, I’m a female candidate training. 

Naomi: okay. So we have, there’s a couple of things I would recommend, Tanya Geisler, is a fabulous coach. And I have to just give her a little bit of a shout out.

She has done some work with me around, the imposter complex and establishing, what it is that I’m here to do. So I she’s amazing. She’s got. Some stuff all over, Facebook and Instagram and on some free things. there’s also a local group of women called women who run Nebraska and they have an incredible, set of support that they offer women in Nebraska.

And then also the run for something, I’m too old to be a candidate for the run for something group, but they also have 

Tami: stellar, 

Naomi: Tools and trips, tips, and webinars and workshops and such. But I will say that it got a little bit to that, like input learner overload, where I was like, wait, this is I okay.

I’ve absorbed too much. Now I just need to step out in faith and know who my inner circle. You’re one of them. And I’ve got some people here locally where I can just throw things off of and throw spaghetti on the wall. So, yes, I guess as a first time candidate, I would say it is important. To do some workshops in some learning.

And it’s also really important to trust yourself and figure out who you’re, who’s gone on the ride with you. 

Tami: Absolutely. And also know that, being nervous about something feels like fear feels like anxiety, but just to reminder your body feels exactly the same way when you’re excited about something.

Yeah. If I tell that myself a lot at 4:00 AM excited about a project. I’m like, why can I not sleep? And I’m like, Oh, my body is like, Hey. So anyway, we were thinking about this great thing also, when I’m super anxious about thing, my body likes to wake me up at four o’clock in the morning to worry about things.

So, but it feels exactly the same. So you can also reframe the idea of I’m scared to death to do this. And, or it could be, Oh my God, this is the most exciting thing ever, 

Naomi: I think. Yes. And I also thinking, as you were talking, one of the things that has helped me is identifying two or three really bad-ass.

Female candidates, not necessarily elected because I think there’s, bad-ass Surrey in the folks that run and don’t win, to just follow, become so obsessed that you are on their mailing list. You’re following their socials. what have you, cause there’s something to be said about gleaning wisdom and advice and courage by just kind of sidling up next to folks.

And that’s been helpful for me too, is identifying some key folks that I’m like, I want to do it like them. that’s something I would suggest also. 

Tami: I love that. So Naomi, 

Naomi: Tammy, 

Tami: I have a question and because by podcast is all about self care. you ha you wear a lot of hats. You have the mom hat, you have the non-profit hat.

You have the entrepreneur hat, you have the I’m a candidate hat, How does self care affect your work in all these arenas?

Naomi: So I will say as maybe a necessary caveat or maybe it’s unnecessary. I don’t know. My children are of the age where they are super self-sufficient. So I will answer this question as a mom of a 14, 17 and 25 year old. I’m able to carve out time in my morning and carve out time in my evening that is not filled with active parenting.

So I will say that I feel extremely thrilled about that piece of my self care. I go upstairs, which is where my bedroom is, at eight o’clock every night. I do my part to shut down the house, the rest of it’s on the kids, their responsibility. And then I’ll just, I mean, it sounds silly, but I have a heating pad.

I got a really amazing heating pad. I. Usually have a pot of tea. and I sit in silence an awful lot these days. I love music, but unless I can be intentional about the purpose of it, I prefer silence. and so for me, silence is self-care, I also do a lot of writing. sometimes it is gibberish.

Sometimes it makes zero sense and sometimes it’s very intentional. and so I do a lot of my writing at night. 


and then little things like I sleep with my window open as much as I can because I sleep better that way. I. Make sure that I’ve got my space in the morning set up so that I don’t have to, again, that energy spending business, I’ve pared down my closet so that I wear often the same thing several days in a row.

It’s easier during quarantine of course, but, just removing some of the things that society or our past tells us has to be part of our routine has been an incredible piece of self-care for me. so simplifying, I guess, I’m 

Tami: over here, shaking my head. Like I’m a bobblehead. Yes. I mean, for real on the, what shall I wear?

I’m like, well, I have 10 dresses, so it’s going to be one of those things like which lipstick made aware. Well, I have two. So go ahead and pick one. Well, and 

Naomi: I’ve gotten to be like, I love earrings are my thing. And I realized, I was like, Oh, I could wear the same dress every day. I can spritz it with refresher and throw it in the dryer.

I’m not like out sweating. That’s not part of my job so I can wear it every day and just throw in different earrings, feel, put together, feel camera ready and feel, capable to do my job. and be really simple about it. no one cares. I also haven’t worn a bra since December 28th, so I guess that’s good for something too.

Yeah, that’s funny. Self-care 

Tami: I have to tell you, there are so many of those memes that like home is where the bra isn’t and I’m like, I would wear my bra 24 hours a day. I love them wearing one right now. but ask me the last time I put shoes on that. Weren’t for exercise. 

Naomi: You know what I did today, Tammy?

My daughter forgot something and I had to take it to her to school and I. Winton my slippers and I was very proud of it. I was like, this actually feels great. No bra slippers. I don’t know if that’s appropriate for a candidate, but, I thought it was just fine. 

Tami: yes, I have to say I’m a fan of the conversations I’m seeing online about people talking about What will we do with the high heels?

Will we have a high heels museum because no, one’s going to be wearing heels after COVID. They’re like, I’m sorry, my feet have expanded back to their natural size and I don’t do that anymore. 

Naomi: Amen to that. 

Tami: Right. I’m like, . 

Naomi: There might be some relationships museums that need to happen too. 

Tami: Oh, I keep whispering about, so you might get a new spouse and people are like, I know, right.

Naomi: It’s so it’s, so that’s a form of self-care too. Is pairing garden of like weed out, weed, out, weed out. 

Tami: yes. Okay. So, we are gen X gals. So what you’re gen X, right? 

Naomi: Yes, I am. Okay. I don’t know why I was disappointed. 

Tami: I’m like, wait a second. I was doing the math. I’m like, no, your genetics too. Yeah.

so what did you learn about self care growing up? 

Naomi: I know 

Tami: exactly where like nothing. 

Naomi: So it’s an interesting, and so mom, if you’re listening to this is all set in love. my mom was the poster child for minimalism. no makeup, never. our clothes were either handmade or passed down or what have you.

And that kind of, resonated through everything. And so she actually was a great example of self-care. It just took me all these years to realize it, lots of time outside, healthy foods in our body. we were a slow household, slow lifestyle, slow living. part of that was because we were homeschooled and we had the opportunity to do it.

And part of it was because my grandfather and that family, one of the pillars and values of the home was do it slow. Remember, create good memories. And so I had actually a great self care. Routine modeled for me, but I rebelled against it because it wasn’t fast. It didn’t feel innovative or fun or adventurous.

and now that I’m 44, I’m like, Oh, she was really smart. So 

Tami: Emma was a straight up OJI hippie who was a way ahead of her time without paying cash money to be like, how can I get back to what you had growing up? 

Naomi: So, yeah. Yeah. And then she left, and moved to Africa to be a missionary. And she has been this, like all of us children watch her and we’re like, how does she create the boundaries?

Literally every day around. I don’t want to talk to people right now. And she’ll, she doesn’t, as a child that doesn’t feel great, but to look at it now, I’m like, Oh, she’s protecting her energy, in a way that is quite lovely. 

Tami: I’m. I’m stunned because when we started, when I said, ha we’re in gen X and then you’re like, wait a second.

No, I mean, I learned it all. And again, you rebelled against it. Do you think that you rebelled against it because it’s also super counter-cultural for having a slow life? 

Naomi: I do. I also think that, when we’re children, we think that’s what everyone does. Whatever that is, divorced kids of divorced families think everyone’s got a divorced family, and so I think I put all of the, my childhood into a box. And then when I started to realize, Oh, there’s other options, I craved something else. and then it just, it took the physical manifestation of it was to rebel against it and to kind of have a little fast life, replacement, but, Yeah, I think it is counter-culture.

And then who is it that deems that is that slow living is wrong. And I think that’s, that’s been a beautiful thing through quarantine for those that aren’t, I know there’s so much suffering that is attached to COVID and so I don’t want to minimize that, but, it has brought people back to the remembrance of what slowing down does for a body and does for a relationship and does for self.

Tami: Absolutely. And it’s one of the conversations that we’ve had in our house. Is that not much about our life changed in COVID? because. I am. My, one of my friends calls me a super hippie with a great haircut. She’s you don’t look like a hippie, but you’re a hell of a hippie. I was like, I know. and you can feel a bit like an outcast when you are not doing the soccer runs or the sporting teams or the, this or that.

But I’m gonna tell you what you want to come over and make some mud pies you want to build with some Lego. You want to be excited about your one hour of TV a day, come on over. I’ll make you some homemade granola and we can use some oat milk this, soak it in, and we’ll all feel better when we go to bed on time.

Naomi: Yeah. Well, good morning. 

Tami: We 

Naomi: were talking offline a little bit about this before, but, we spend so much time assuming things about others and. If we would just talk, stop a little bit longer and realize Oh, that person’s so lifestyle or that person’s waste lists choices or whatever. there’s some meaningful stuff that we can glean from each other.

if we would, again, slow down to realize how beautiful it is to go to bed on time or to let the sun wake us up in the morning. If we have that luxury, I don’t know. 

Tami: Yeah, well, and also I’m like, Oh, you could get a Dawn simulate, an alarm clock, and you can be woken up by the sun 365 days a year.

which I do that I do like to manipulate the light. However, again, I feel like the way that I’m living my life, is to give other people permission. Cause a lot of people feel like, but you have to do all the things I’m like. You really don’t 

Naomi: right. 

Tami: It seems like you have to cause people a lot of times you get pushback when you’re like, no, thank you.

Why don’t you want to do that thing? I don’t want to. 

Naomi: Yeah, well, and that’s a piece of it. We need to also normalize, not only normalize leaders, not knowing everything, but also normalizing no, as a complete sentence. No thanks. 

Tami: And usually it’s no, thank you. Okay. And nothing stops somebody in their tracks faster when you, when pushed back and they say, why not?

You’re like, but I don’t want to, and I don’t want to such a great answer. I feel like it’s the best answer, 

Naomi: but it really is 

Tami: because you’re like, well, I have visions of, so Rosie Molinari and Bernay Brown both talk about, being asked to do things for the bake sale. And Rosie tells a story about how she got asked to do something for a bake sale.

She’s I don’t even baking. I don’t even think it’s that, but she couldn’t figure out how to say no. So she said yes. And then she’s I baked some resentment right into those cupcakes. Can you imagine stirring resentment into your baked goods? I don’t want your resentment company. Can you just get cupcakes from the grocery store?

Sam’s resentment and sell those instead. They’ll go for a way higher price, 

Naomi: right? 

Tami: Right. 

Naomi: Well, I love it. 

Tami: Okay. So, so you had this hippie upbringing and then you rebelled against it. So how do you practice self-care now that you’re a grownup? 

Naomi: I think that I mix a combination of physical self-care, the really great mask that makes me feel my skin feel wonderful after drinking more water than.

then caffeine caffeinated things. I mixed that kind of stuff with just knowing that I need stillness and, the ways that I refuel, literally, it’s so simple that I guess I have to remind myself of this, how simple it is, sun on my face. And as often as the temperatures allow literally bare feet on the grass, And then music is my, probably my biggest self-care as an adult.

as loud as it can possibly be. jazz blues, anything that’s got a middle, a beginning, a middle and an end, in song I’m a huge fan 

Tami: of, I love that music is a big part of my self-care too. I am a like, I have super fan start-up or a super fan status for a band called the old 90 sevens.

They’re out of Dallas. I have loved them since 1997. I have get gotten on airplanes to see them. I am friends with other fans around the country. I’ve written fantasy set lists. I’ve asked them to come to my town. I’ve done all of those things and it gives me life. I love that. 

Naomi: Yeah, it’s good. 

Tami: It is good.

And I do also really enjoy a song with a beginning, a middle and an end, no jam BS for me. Thank you very much. I like a tidy song. where’s your self-care going well. And what could use some more attention? 

Naomi: The, where it’s going well is the removal of myself from the day. So the going upstairs at eight o’clock has been really good.

I think, I quit drinking in March. And what I’ve realized through that process of, no longer drinking is that there was so much attached to the habit. And so replacing. And habitually closing down at eight o’clock. I used to, when I grew up, and they spent some time with my grandmother, I was always enamored by the loading of the dishwasher and the whoosh sound of when the dishwasher would start and knowing that she did it then, so that she would wake up to a clean load of dishes in the morning that she would then put away and turning off all, but one light over the sink and washing the counter.

So I think I’ve realized. Now post-menopausal and with kids that are self-sustaining, that there is an art of self care that comes with closing down the house for the night for me. So that’s going really well. And it’s something I look forward to instead of my glass of wine that started at five now it’s Ooh, it’s almost eight o’clock.

I could shut down the house and go curl up in bed. what could use more attention, in the self care realm? I tend to. Put relationships last. so whether that’s, being intentional about my communication with my husband, and with my kids, I think needs some work, because I do derive great joy from my husband and my children and as a form of self care and, reminding myself to laugh and be joyful with them, I need to work on that.

Tami: I have to say as my long suffering spouse would attest me too. It’s okay, can we have a camera? can we have a whole conversation? I’m like, I guess 

Naomi: I know, I 

Tami: guess L and when you said the wound. I know you’re like, but it’s eight. O’clock I’m putting the house to bed and by the house, I mean, myself, the washer, the dishwasher created a very vivid picture in my mind because my husband, one of his put at the house to bed things is he turns the dishwasher on at night for the same reason.

And then, because he likes to be a little extra, love him. He sits down by the dishwasher and meditates to the sound of the dishwasher, whooshing. 

Naomi: I love that actually, 

Tami: it’s so fantastic. Right? It’s it’s already there. He keeps the lights out. It’s very, it’s kind of womb. Like it’s very bougie. I love that.

okay. So I also have, I jumped on the sober train about six years ago. it’s weird. I hardly ever talk about it and it’s because it was. Drinking. Wasn’t so much a problem for me. It was more of a, this isn’t hiding anything. I’m just going to subtract it and see what happens and what happens. And I was like, Oh shit, my anxiety went down.

Oh shit. My depression went down. Oh shit. My sleep got a lot better. All of these things. So a lot of people are sober, curious right now. Do you have. A ritual that you have replaced your 5:00 PM cocktail slash wine with, do you have some mock tails? what do you do in that department? 

Naomi: So I will be truthful here.

It wasn’t a, it wasn’t a glass of wine at 5:00 PM. It was the bottle opened at 5:00 PM. 

Tami: isn’t that how, I’m sorry. Isn’t that? How everyone drinks? Well, I think 

Naomi: what we have is a problem with women in society is that we kid ourselves and we’re like, well, I only have two glasses. 

Tami: and I think that’s, the glass is big enough, right?

Naomi: It’s only two. That is so true. And I think I want to also just kind of piggyback on what you said. Also, I have struggled with talking about it publicly because I don’t identify as an alcoholic. However, it was becoming too big of a priority in my life. it was just a habit that, like you said, it was extra.

And I was like, why am I adding this? So, when I first. Quit drinking. part of it was because I was an active recovery and was also managing a high level of payments because of my accident. And so the early days of sobriety were pretty simple because it was, I couldn’t do both, when I was in active physical therapy, recovery and learning to walk again.

And I also couldn’t do both once I. Came out of that phase, I was like, Oh, I really miss wine. So I did go through a, a time where I used there’s a brand called Seedlip, which has an amazing, Alcohol free spirit. There’s one that I really love that citrus space that was delightful as kind of at five o’clock.

And then Gruby is also a brand that has, alcohol free beer and, sparkling basically sparkling Rose, drink. So, just something to be able to pour into a glass and watch it bubble and feel like it was that cocktail. Now, though it is, all sparkling water and hot tea all day. As, and I don’t really have a five o’clock thing anymore.

The other thing that I will say that really helped me was, the book quit, like a woman like, Oh yeah, he would occur. and the reason I loved it is because it wasn’t about her sad story. It was science-based, it was, it correlated the habits and the emotional connection with drinking. And it was just, as an input person, the more I knew.

So the more I knew about how alcohol is impacting my body and my life, it gave me the tools to be able to say, yeah, no, thanks. It wasn’t easy though. I mean, I don’t want to be glib and cavalier and just be like, yeah, I just decided one day to stop drinking. it’s still an everyday choice. so. 

Tami: I love this.

Naomi: I don’t know if that was a wrap up with a bow, but 

Tami: no, I mean, I just feel like I, again, I want to normalize this idea of you don’t have to hit rock bottom to make changes and things don’t have to be so out of control to make changes, you can be like, I’m curious, what would my life be like if I took that part of my life out for a little bit and I always start my, My habit changes with the idea of I’m going to do this for a month or six weeks and see how it goes.

I’m going to collect data and see how it goes. And for me, there was just a really stark and by the way, not the first time I did this experiment, I’ve done this experiment on and off for varying degrees of time since I was 30. So I go back and forth between being a drinker and not being a drinker. The thing that I have found this time is it feels different because I’m 50 and ladies, our bodies change and how our bodies metabolite metabolize.

I think that’s the real word, metabolize alcohol changes over time. And so it felt different and it feels different every day that I don’t. It is not to say I’m never going to drink again. What I’m saying is I’m not drinking right now because it doesn’t fit into what else I want to do. I want to have the energy to write a book.

I want to have the energy to. get stronger and more flexible. I want to have the energy to be the parent. I want to be instead of the snappy bitch that I can be when I have booze in my system. And so again, it’s just being curious of, I wonder what my life would be like if I ran for office, what would my life be like if I replaced my booze for a month with some fancy tonic water or some non-alcoholic spirit, what would happen?

Naomi: The one, like 


Tami: ritual of stuff too. I just don’t think you have to use the original, the original thing. Like I don’t drink coffee. I think coffee is. Disgusting, but I like going to coffee with people cause I enjoy how they do the things and it’s all live, 

Naomi: Well, and it’s also all, a lot of this is big business.

Self care is big business, And so if we look at it from that frame of what else could I choose for me right now? Like I gave up wine, but I sure as hell did not give up sugar. so the replacement of taking wine out of my system made me realize how addicted I actually was to the sugar.

so like I’m looking at my little stash of almond joy and. Reese’s peanut butter cups next to me. so I’m not a purist. I’m not by not drinking. I’m not perfect. I’ve just, like you said, chosen to not have that be one Avenue or choice. Also that I’m not choosing to spend money on. Good Lord. Was I spending a lot of money on alcohol?

Tami: Right. And I know I was, I have recently started to, explore the world of legal cannabis, because it’s totally legal. Even for recreational use. I’m no longer a smoker of anything. Like I. By the way I used to smoke cigarettes and I know everyone’s Oh, that’s so gross. I know, but I’m one of those people it’s you don’t, we should all be able to do smoke, but we can’t.

So I’m kind of bummed about that. So, but I don’t smoke cannabis. I have however, dipped my toe into medicinal use of edibles and Oh my God. I will become the poster child for just a tiny bit of a gummy knocks me on my butt and lets me sleep during tumultuous times in the world, 

Naomi: which, we’ve just happened to be going through several iterations of that right now, 

Tami: all at the same time.

and I don’t have any residual, I don’t have any hangover like I do with booze. And so. I have a little bit of something to go to sleep and that I wake up and I’m like, yay team. I’m awake. And 

Naomi: I will also say the one thing that I’ve learned too in my sobriety experiment, because I think that like you, it’s also like I majoring in the future, I don’t know.

is that I have been able to challenge my judgment of other people. I noticed for a while, when I was in the active phase of becoming sober, that a lot of folks stopped talking to me about Their consumption or their choice or their new favorite wine. And I was like, please keep talking about it.

Like it’s not. That’s w we need to be able to normalize alcohol, whether it’s consumption or sobriety or the taste of it, or the love of a new drink, or, 

Tami: like I just confessed my love of cigarettes. So yeah. I’m with you. 

Naomi: Well, I have, I actually have, I’ll have to send you a photo. I have the best set of pearls that I bought for myself when I quit smoking.

So I’m a former cigarette smoker also, 

Tami: right? Like it’s a thing. No, and it’s funny. I also, I. I lost some social connection when I quit drinking also with some people. And I realized, Oh, I think I might’ve just did a lot of drinking with that person, but I also gained a lot of other relationships. And so it, it all worked out in the balance for me.

Yeah, but it was a little tricky at first and I did Holly’s book. so if you guys haven’t read, quit like a woman yet, please do there’s. There’s so many sober, curious books. If you are feeling that way, go ahead and dip your toe. Naomi, what is your morning routine? 

Naomi: It’s very slow, Tammy. I so my daughter is a freshman in high school and she has been back to school in person since the beginning of the.

20, 20, 21 school year. and so she gets up at about six. I hear her and wake up because of, household noise. I usually lay in bed. I use the insight timer for a few of my favorite morning meditations. I do some stretches, as part of my, at home, continuing physical therapy for my leg.

I’m not a makeup where, so my. Actual like getting ready routine, just consists of throwing on something and a great pair of earrings. I use a wonderful Rose oil from trader Joe’s for my face. And then I spend about 45 minutes with my daughter while I’m making coffee and unloading the dishwasher while she gets ready for school.

And then the next hour, once she leaves for school is mine. for either writing or reading or sitting, there’s a lot of mornings where I just sit in that chair in the corner of my office. 


because I feel like I have to have space. And I’m not a super woo person, but to kind of get the download for the day, what is it that I want to be, how do I want to show up?

What do I want to leave with people that I interact with? little sensory and I guess in some grounded-ness and then from nine o’clock on, it’s a shit show, but at least if didn’t have that hour. 

Tami: Absolutely. And what’s so funny is I did an episode. I’ll link to it, my morning routine and everyone’s Oh my God, I can’t wait to see what you do.

And I’m like, okay, it’s real boring. There is so much reflection. Good luck. Basically, I journal my morning away and then I meditate and then exercise and I eat. Yeah. There was like, But what about I’m like, there’s no big skincare routine. There’s no big shower. Do my hair. There’s none of that. But let me tell you, I have years of tracking my sleep.

I got years of tracking my mood years of what was my intention for that day. And how did it go? I love the word download because I feel like when I get quiet that’s when my, The best ideas I’m ever going to have come in those quiet 

Naomi: moments. I think about all of the retreats and the reason why we like hotels and like all of the things that like we think would be so wonderful.

We can replicate by just being still in, quiet in our own space. 

Tami: As somebody who used to lead retreats, co-sign all I did as a retreat leader was hold space for you to be quiet and feed you good food. But it is a very much the holding the space of and now we be quiet. Yeah, absolutely. So what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online?


Naomi: so I’ll go with the easy answer. First, the, where people can find me if you’re interested in learning more about the city council race, and even if you’re not anywhere close to Omaha, but want to follow along as I try to candidly be really authentic through this campaign. it’s Naomi for city council, either at.com on the website or in any social space.

It’s Naomi for city council. And then my personal website and then my personal, life is just add to Naomi hideaway. So Naomi, how do we.com or any of the social spaces? And it’s everyone always wants to call me Hathaway. It’s H a T w a Y. 


I think the other things that I would love for people to know about me are that, I show up messy all of the time.

and I think I would love for more people to consider that way of being in the world. I lead with love. I know that people say that love and kindness are kind of soft skills, but I think that they are necessary, for our leaders to have. And, I also am a huge proponent of leaving well. So if you’re in a space where you’re leaving something, whether it’s moving or a new relationship or a new job, look up the concept of leaving.

Well, it’s a way to really document and be intentional about, leaving one space and entering another. and if you want book suggestions, I have a ton. I’m an avid reader. Otherwise I don’t think there’s anything else. I want people to know about me. We’ve done a really good job of covering some basis.

Tami: Wait. So did you say leaving L E a V I N G. Well, 

Naomi: leaving. Well, 

Tami: Oh, I’m going to get my Google fingers on, but can you give everyone cause I’m like, I have questions. So the one question I have on that is what does that mean? 

Naomi: So it was actually a phrase that was termed by a friend of mine. Whose name is Jerry Jones.

He is in the intercultural space of, living abroad and he had talked about it early on from a way to leave one overseas assignment to go to another one. And I borrowed it. Like all of the best ideas are borrowed, right. I borrowed it and implemented it into my real estate practice. So I really believe strongly that families by no fault of their own, forget about kiddos when they’re moving and the kids are the last ones to.

be provided support. And so I helped my clients understand how to help their kids leave well. So that means like neighborhood walks, in your old neighborhood, go to places that you love to take photographs at your favorite bench in the park. Go have one last ice cream, for people that are homeowners, if you’re selling right.

A little note of goodbye to the house in the inside closet of your kiddos room, If you can better assimilate into a new environment, if you’ve properly said goodbye to the old one, Oh God. 

Tami: As it’s gone, this is ringing my bell right now. Ooh, I think I have some things. This is a good idea 

Naomi: and think about it too.

so I am working with my team right now on some of this leaving. Well, they don’t know it yet, but it’s an act of, subtle suggestion. So if I know that a contract’s coming to an end, or I know that, people are going to have to say goodbye, starting to identify the lessons you’ve learned and just being grateful to each other saying, thank you for teaching me this.

realizing the things that you didn’t have time to do yet. that’s even a way to lead well is Ooh, when I started this job, I wanted to. Have this as a success measure and I didn’t get there. And then being able to like close that loop helps with the next job. It helps in relationships. all sorts of, it’s just, it’s such a great concept, to live like with, 

Tami: I absolutely love it.

Thank you for that. And it’s reminding me, I’m doing a workshop at the end of the year. I haven’t decided on the name yet, but it’s going to be something like. make 20, 21 your best year ever. But the first third of the workshop is going to be about hugging 2020 and saying I’m so glad we got to spend so much time together.

whew. Let me look at all the great things that happened. Let me look at all the, not so great things that happen, but to like really make peace with 2020 before we go into 2021. Yep. 

Naomi: So you could leave. Well, you could have your folks leave. Well, 20, 20. 

Tami: Oh my God. Well, I might be stealing that just to be, I might be like leave 20, 20 well, and people are like, okay.

Crazy bird. I need to get out of here. I’m like, well, but you have to make peace with what came before you can really embody what comes before you. 

Naomi: Yeah, absolutely. 

Tami: Okay. Naomi, are you ready for the quickfire questions that never end up being cool WIC? Yes. Cool. Because I like to talk apparently, Naomi Hattaway, what is your Enneagram?

Naomi: I am a very classic eight wings. Seven. 

Tami: Yeah. I am so excited because last year when Holly and I did our Enneagram series, I was convinced that I didn’t like eights. And here’s some news flashing people. I, some of my favorite people I have connected with in 2020 are healthy eights. Oh, my goodness. A healthy eight is a person I want to sit by because they have all the good ideas.

I’m like, Oh, let’s do this together. Natural leaders. Amazing folks. Okay. Naomi, are you an introvert or an extrovert? 

Naomi: So, my Myers-Brigg is an E N F J, which means that I. Present is extroverted, but if we talk about the way that we recharge, I think I’m a hundred percent introverted. so I think it depends on your definition of extrovert versus introvert.

I love people and I can get up on a stage and talk. And I don’t ha I don’t show fear. I think we often think of extroverted people as the bubbly, outgoing people. So I would lean that way, but. If you’re looking at the recharging definition of it, how do you fuel? It’s not from people it’s from stillness and quiet.

Tami: Okay. Well, I will just tell you, I am an I N F J O. Everybody is you’re not an introvert. I’m like, girl, I stopped listening to you five minutes ago. You don’t see those close signs on my eyelids. And again, I present very forward. Very confident, again, speaking as not an issue, what I’m not interested in.

Is boring. Chit-chat yup. I’m going to ask you some shit and we are going to go deep and we’re going to go fast and we’re probably going to hug and then I’m going to go home cause I’m going to need a break. 

Naomi: Absolutely. Yup. 

Tami: Okay. All right. On the Gretchen Rubin for tenancies, are you a questioner, an upholder, an obliger, or a rebel?

Naomi: I’m a rebel. 

Tami: I love rebels cause I’m a questioner, but I totally lean all middle fingers towards the level. 

Naomi: it’s interesting though. Are you familiar with the disc? it’s decider. Oh, no, I can’t remember what they all are caring. We S as the steady eye is, I can remember 

Tami: that. I think it’s going to have to be a 20, 21 goal for me.

A couple people have mentioned it. I’m like, Ooh, there’s framework. I don’t know. But the reason I bring it up is 

Naomi: because there’s a natural state and a learned state with disc. And my natural state is very high D which is the driven decider. That’s why I’m a rebel. That’s why I’m an eight. And I think that then what the beauty of disc is it lets you also have an adapted and in the adapted version, I’ve learned how to soften some of that soften the rebel soften the decider soften the eight.

And I think that, from an Enneagram perspective, that’s where the health comes in of realizing where to bring out certain things. So anyway, that might be something fun for you to, 

Tami: influence I’ll explore 20, 21. And the reason I also giggle at that is my natural inclination is once people say you have to blah, blah, blah.

I’m like, Oh, that is hilarious. I don’t have to do shit. However, Should you convince me, this is a great idea. I have ways to improve it because I’m a one, right? So, but it’s funny. I thought I was an eight for a while and then my therapist fell off her chair and was like, girl, you’ve been telling me your secrets for 20 years.

You’re a one 

Naomi: hysterical. 

Tami: I was like, okay. But anyway, I love rebels because man. They get shit done. 

Naomi: We do see that goes back to that thing though, about sitting on my hands. Like I’ve had to learn to not always be the rebel eight, 

Tami: right? No, absolutely. But there’s also this story that rebels tell themselves, they’re like, ah, you can’t make me do anything and neither can I, and I’m like, that is also true.

And the other side of that is just the, but once you decide. You don’t need anyone to hold you accountable because you’re too busy wearing the crown, you’re doing the thing we’re in the crown man, duh. I said I was going to do it now. I’m doing it. Yep. Okay. Love language. What’d you got. so love 

Naomi: language.

I’m joking with you right now, but my love language right now is people policy. 

Tami: I will say I’m here for it. 

Naomi: I kid, but I do want a t-shirt that says that, my love language is acts of service a hundred percent all the way. 

Tami: Love it. That’s my secondary, what we should get as well, because I actually posted on Instagram recently that my love language is people who vote.

And, that’s true. So I’ll send you a gold star because my true love language is, words of affirmation. 

Naomi: Okay. 

Tami: Okay. My second is acts of service. I call it getting shit done and gold stars, but you know, What Chapman has his way of talking to you? 

Naomi: Yes, he does. my husband is a gift person, which I don’t like.

I love getting a book in the mail. I love getting like. A quote, that’s a magnet, like I love that kind of thing, but he is the King of gift giving and I’m like, thank you for that. it’s gifts is way on the bottom. 

Tami: I, me too, when my husband and I, he okay. A, I bought him this book for his birthday one year and he’s Okay.

Your role, what do you seven? You want to read this book? And I was like true, but I think it’ll help both of us. So we’ll both read it. He’s just tell me if there’s a quiz, so he’s never read it. But what we did do is when we both found out that our top two, gold stars and getting shit done, we stopped buying presence.

Naomi: So nice. 

Tami: And we’re like, Oh, thank God the pressure’s off. And when I want a present, I’m like, Hey, this is a present giving thing. Let me send you a list. And he says, thank you all happy. Right. I love it. Yeah. It’s we’re just real honest with, I it’s so funny. I have a torture relationship with the book because it gets real Jesus.

See at the end and I’m like, dammit. Gary knock it off because I do find that framework to be very helpful. 

Naomi: There’s a great as your daughter gets older, there’s a five language, five love languages for teens, and a workbook that I would highly recommend. 

Tami: Well, I already read the five love languages for children and, unbeknownst to her had been testing them out.

That girl is a quality time with, Gold stars attached and she knows that she can get us by doing stuff. So we’re, I play board games with my child four times a day. When she actually goes to school, I play board games with my child three times a day. That what I’m telling you, not much about our life has changed except the location of school, but she’s we’ve already played, sorry, and UNO.

And it’s 10 42 in the morning. 

Naomi: Oh, that’s a lot of day left. 

Tami: Exactly. We will be playing more for sure. Okay. Now we’re to the real reason I have a podcast is to get everyone’s book list. 

Naomi: What 

Tami: is your favorite last most recent 

Naomi: book?

The most recent favorite. Last is the address book by Dierdra mask. it is all about street addresses and what they reveal about race, wealth and power. 

Tami: Oh my God. Well 

Naomi: guess who’s going to be 

Tami: getting that book. See, this is why I do this because I’ve never heard of it. And I can’t wait to read it. 

Naomi: the other one though, that is a very close second for the most favorite recent is me a bird songs.

how we show up, I think is the title. Okay. Someone. So I can’t reference it, but I’m pretty sure it’s how we show up. And it’s by me, a bird song and it’s beautiful. 

Tami: Okay, well, I’m literally writing it down cause I’m going to go to my library app and add these to my list. What is your favorite book of all time and feel free to give me several, because this is the choose amongst your darlings.

Please don’t make me choose. 

Naomi: Yes. okay. So from a being a boss standpoint, radical candor. 

Tami: Oh my God. I love that book so much. 

Naomi: so do I, From a pondering self care liturgical, not in the religious sense way. Parker Palmer on the brink of everything is like the poor book is so highlighted and underlined.

It’s not even funny. from a political standpoint, Amanda, Litman’s run for something book. It’s literally like real talk guide and that’s what the tagline is. And it’s so true. and then I have to give a shout out to Resmah comes my grandmother’s hands. I have never read a book that was so helpful in terms of learning about oppression and trauma to a body.

It’s a little sematic. It’s a little anti-racism, but what he does masterfully is brings together the white. Historical lived experience in a body from Europe. the black lived experience trauma from Africa and the police body trauma from being forced into law enforcement. It’s just brilliant. and I think the thing that I resonate most with him about is that he asks people when they’re reading it to take a pause, like every couple of chapters, he’s okay, put the book down.

Here’s some lessons I want you to like, Permanently sit in and live with and then bring the book back. so that’s, it’s a tough book, but it is amazing. The other thing that I think I would say is that I love any book where the author is available to their readers and resume is one of those 

Tami: available to their readers.

In what way? 

Naomi: on social media, like on Instagram, I connected with him and this is a great story. I connected with him, told him I was reading the book from the library and realized I’m going to have to buy the book because he wants us to like, sit with it. and he was so great. He’s give me your address.

I’ll send you one. That’s okay. but he said, I just asked that you come back and continue this conversation with me about how the book has sat with you. So that’s what I mean, like he is, he’s just available for folks that are willing to put in the work of learning. 

Tami: I’m just going to tell you people, if you are listening to this and you’re wondering how to connect and make people true fans of your work, that’s it?

Yep. What I said earlier about the old 90 sevens, they came to my town as a suggestion because I wrote them a letter. At 40 years old and was like, you should come to Sacramento, you should play at this club. They did. And then when they came, I wrote my fantasy set list, sent it on social media and then they played it.

Naomi: That’s amazing. 

Tami: And shouted me out from the stage. And I was like, I have died in this club, a million deaths because of this. Yes, 

Naomi: I have another favorite. 

Tami: Yes. 

Naomi: Zombie loyalists by Peter Shankman. And the reason I just brought that up is because what you just expressed was that band was creating a zombie loyalist in you through the way that they worked and interacted with you.

You will always shout them out and you will tell everyone about them. And so while they’re sleeping, You’re doing the work of marketing for them. So for anyone who’s listening to this, it’s brilliant. 

Tami: I mean, it’s so funny. Just the other day, rat, the singer was reading poetry on to shout out a poet and he was reading poetry and somebody, I didn’t see it cause I don’t follow the poet and somebody tagged me.

I was like, This is the best bang ever. Like I am like one of those fantasies after a show. And you’re driving home from San Francisco in the middle of the night with your friends. You’re like, what scenario should we put our favorite singer in? That would be like the most pleasure. Well, and the number one thing was let’s have Rett reading us stories from a book.

Naomi: I love it, but that’s where it really, it becomes personal and it becomes engaging and think of. Now  think of all of our elected officials behaved that way. 

Tami: exactly. PS. That’s why I love Twitter because most people don’t hand their Twitter off to social media managers. A lot of people handle their own Twitter.

Pro tip get on Twitter. I know people are like, I hate Twitter. I’m like that’s for all the kids. I don’t know if I’m qualified to hang out are so I like to hang out there and be like, hi, I don’t have much to say, but I’m here to learn. 

Naomi: Well, but the thing about Twitter though, like we were talking about being able to say no, thank you like that.

That resonates with social media too. You can just say no, thank you to a conversation and no, thank you to engaging with stuff that makes you feel icky or uncomfortable, that’s true. 

Tami: So, okay, so that does lead me to two questions. One, what is your favorite personal development book followed of course by what’s your favorite social media channel?

Naomi: Oh goodness. So I thought that the, self development book was going to be the easiest one to answer. When we talked about this earlier, I want to give a shout out to Alex ELLs after the rain. it is a newly published. I don’t think that she would call it a self development book, but it is a self-awareness tool to help guide you through some really cool self personal development stuff.


Tami: it. And was that a, is that a 20, 20 bucks? 

Naomi: Yeah, she crowdfunded it and now it’s out. and her last name is E L E and she’s also exquisitely producing some meditations and, she’s just a cool cat. 

Tami: Love it. All right. So what is your favorite media? Social media channel. Instagram. Okay. And are you a grid person or are you a story’s reels person?

Like what’s your jam? 

Naomi: So I have a really cool grid on my city council site that I’m really struggling with because I don’t want to mess it up, but I know I have to get more engaged on the grid. I am a stories person though, hands down. I do love though, the grid to be able to storytell. And put my writing out there.

Cindy Spiegel, who runs the CRA the community that we keep referring to deer growing 

Tami: up. Grown-ass women, ladies, dear grown-ass woman, you should join 

Naomi: it where it’s at. Cindy does a really good job of using her Instagram profile posts for storytelling. and I do love that, but I just really love stories.

Tami: I know Cindy is a master at many things and using social is one of them, for sure. Absolutely love her. what is your favorite TV show? Oh, different things. You gotta get different things for different, Twitter for learning Twitter for laughing, because one of my favorite things is. Not being the smartest kid in the room.

It makes me nervous when I’m the smartest person in the room. I’m like, you guys, we got we’re up shit Creek, because I feel like if I have to be in charge, we’re not going to get very far. So when I go on Twitter, I’m always like, there’s a hundred million people here who are way smarter than me.

Thank goodness. I know where they all are and I can visit. so I do love, I’d love Twitter for that. And I like the direct access to people that you can get through Twitter that I can’t seem to find anywhere else. I love Instagram for connecting to people and here’s how I love a story. And I am always the person.

If you ask a question in an Instagram story, I will be answering it because. It’s lonely. When you ask a question, no one answers it. And I never want someone to feel like they are like, Oh man, no one likes me here. This is dumb. So I’m always like my favorite color is blue. I’m glad you asked that. What is your favorite color?

So I think it’s such a great way to get into people’s lives. I feel like Instagram is the place. When I meet somebody, I immediately follow them Instagram. And I do some immediate engagement. I like to engage people who follow me. I like to engage people, on their page, on my page. I just like the engagement, but you have, do you have to be, you can’t be a passive.

consumer of Instagram, 

Naomi: no, it won’t work for you that 

Tami: it doesn’t work that way. Like it is a, it’s a thing we have to be social. And then Facebook, I think is stupid and I’m only there because lots of people are there. and I would rather not be, but I feel like I have to be. So what’s funny is I’ve been using my personal Instagram to irritate the shit out of people by just.

I, my personal campaign has to be, when I feel anxious about the election, I give a small donation in hopes to flip the Senate, and then I go on Instagram and I use a very obnoxious all heart. I emoji of myself that says flipping the Senate is on my mind. Mike X Mike SB and Mississippi got a donation from me today.

And I have a list of 15 candidates that I just run through the list. I’m like Raphael Warnock in Georgia got a donation from me. Jamie, Harrison’s going to be getting everyone’s Christmas gift. Cause I hate Lindsay Graham. Oh, did you say Theresa Greenfield in Iowa? Cause you can’t stand Joni Ernst. That’s what I said, everyone flipping the Senate’s on my mind.

So. The nice thing about that is I know I’m irritating some people, which I’m like cool, because after the election, if you haven’t posted about the election, we’re no longer friends on Facebook. So I’m using it as a weeding out tool. And lots of people on Facebook have been like, Oh my God, I’m going to give donations to 

Naomi: peer politics, political 

Tami: persuasion.

Yeah. and it makes me laugh every time I do it. So it eases my anxiety. It, I’m engaging others. I’m normalizing that process. Like so many people are like, I’m going to go broke doing this. I’m like, well, I’m only giving $5 at a time and they’re like, I am too. And I was like, cool. I was like, I really am taking it out of my holiday.

Present buying, go back to earlier gifts. Aren’t my love language. Apparently flipping the Senate is my love language. And so I’m using my Facebook for that right now. I love it. Yeah. what’s your favorite TV show? 

Naomi: I am a fan of anything that Ava DuVernay puts out. and I love that this is a series.

Tami: Okay. My fun fact, my husband’s best friend from high school was on this as well. Oh, 

Naomi: I love that. 

Tami: Yeah. And he did not look like that in high school. I’ll just 

Naomi: say, 

Tami: it’s so funny. I saw him at a wedding many years after high school and was like, who’s the hot guy that’s here. I’m like 

Naomi: what? 

Tami: That guy did look like that in high school.

cause I love that people can become legit movie stars. And that was never the person you think it’s going to be from high school. Right. Anyway. Okay. This is my favorite question because it always is the question that gets me an explicit rating on every single episode. So I never have to wonder if I have to check the box and it is directly from inside the actors studio, Naomi Haddaway.

What is your favorite swear word? 

Naomi: My favorite swear word is a combination of three words and it is for fuck’s sake. 

Tami: FFS. Yes. I love that. Yes. I think you’re the one first cause everybody loves. Yeah, well everybody, no, not for fuck. I mean, literally, almost everyone says fuck. And they have, and they always say it with a laugh with Gusto.

but nobody has said for fuck’s sake yet. And I have to say. I love it. That is a, it is a well-used phrase. 

Naomi: It’s bless your heart. You never really know why someone or how someone is using it. and you’re like, Oh, is she mad? Or is she like pleasantly annoyed? Or is she really piss off? 

Tami: I love that as a California native, nobody ever says, bless your 

Naomi: heart.

I’m married to a Southern boy, so, okay. 

Tami: Right. And I think that w West coasters, when they hear that, they’re like, 

Naomi: Huh? Well, I think it’s a term of endearment and then those that don’t know that they’ve just said, Oh, you’re an idiot. 

Tami: Right? They’re like, here, let me translate your West coast thoughts to what it actually means.

And then you’re like, damn. 

Naomi: Yeah. 

Tami: Damn, that’s a good one. Have you 

Naomi: really amazing person, that you would absolutely love speaking of Southern and Georgia and bless your hearts? she is running for Senate and I’m going to look her up really fast while I talk and fill this space. because her, Twitter speed is everything.

Tami: Wait, so is she running for the Georgia house? The state Senate 

Naomi: she is running for. It says Georgia house. Yes. District 67. Her name is Angela Mayfield and her Twitter handle is pink rock to pus. This is for tagline, Georgia sass machine Southern is all get out. Y’all means all. I was born to bake biscuits and build a better Georgia.

And I’m a lot of flour. Ah, 

Tami: okay. So pink. What sass pink. 

Naomi: Rock. And then the last part of octopus. So it’s like P rock tapas, T O P U S. 

Tami: All right. Well guess what? She just got to follow. 

Naomi: She’s amazing. 

Tami: I have to say I am so thrilled to connect with women. Hell maybe I’ll ask her to be on my podcast. I’m so thrilled to connect with women who are seeing.

Holes seeing problems, seeing issues and are like, you know what? I think I might actually be part of the solution. I’d like to give it a shot. so thank you for, letting me into your life and thank you for connecting with me and thank you for coming here and, letting me get to know you better. Hey everyone.

Go. Do the things where we do the follows and continue these conversations on social, you can find both of us on Instagram and as always, you can go to the show notes for this show at www.tamihackbarth.com/episode 71. And we will talk to you soon and remember that you matter too.


EP 70: Parenting, Politics and So Much More with Asha Dornfest

EP 70: Parenting, Politics and So Much More with Asha Dornfest

I am so excited to introduce you to Asha Dornfest – the creator of voteplus1! Asha is a writer and community organizer. She is the author of several books including one of my favorites: Minimalist Parenting), co-host of the Edit Your Life podcast, and co-founder of Democracy Club, a new model for everyday democratic participation that leads with friendship and trust. She lives in Portland, Oregon with her family.

This week’s episode is all about community impact and how it’s so much more than political. In Asha’s words “community impact is a form of hopeful confidence in your own voice and your ability to make a difference.”

We explored the idea of informed participation in democracy and I challenged her to speak on the concept of “not being political”. I loved what she had to say about giving away your voice.


Tami: Good morning, Asha. 

Asha: Good morning, Tammy. How are you? 

Tami: I’m fantastic. I’m so happy to be here with you. For those of you that have not yet met Asha. Who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Asha: Oh boy. That’s a big question. And it’s changed over the years. Hasn’t it? my name’s Asha Dorn Fest and first and foremost, I’m a writer.

I’ve been a writer for. geez, like 25 years now, which really sounds like a long time. That is a long time. I started writing books about technology and web publishing back in the mid nineties when there was barely a web. And then, from there. I, have gone on to write about a whole bunch of things.

mostly parenting. I had a very popular parenting blog for many years called parent hacks. And then from there, parent hacks has turned into a book, but I would say most recently for the last few years, a lot of my writing has been about political engagement and democracy. but also, Just trusting yourself and, aligning your life with your views.

So that is really, that has been interestingly where my mind has been, even though much of my writing about that is actually been in private spaces. So it’s not as, sort of out there as much of my earlier writing so that I would say. Writer that’s my big thing. I have gone on to do other things, most notably, a lot of community organizing, but, I’m best known as a writer.

Tami: I actually, I’m the reason I paused and I was looking around my office is I always have minimalist parenting nearby and I always buy that for people for baby gifts. Oh, it’s right here. Literally within arm’s reach. 

Asha: I love, that’s just amazing. 

Tami: it made the shelf and I will say this when I read it, I pre-ordered, it, of course when I read it and then I gave it to everybody, I just was like, boy, they should have put that self-care chapter first.

Should’ve been a little longer and called in a little co-host over here. But otherwise I thought this book is a spot on it’s one of my favorite parenting books, because it is exactly that thing where you’re like, we’re just going to parent the kids that we have. And we’re going to worry about the life that we want, rather than looking outward.

We’re going to look inward and it was such a relief to find other people who were like, what works for your family. 

Asha: so thank you. Thank you, Tammy. Absolutely. 

Tami: To, to get that because it also came out when I had a little kid. And so that was really, It was a relief. Also. I love your podcast with Christine COE, edit your life.

I’ve listened to literally every episode. Thank you for introducing me to Amy McGrath. I’ve given her many campaign contributions since then. and so the reason I wanted to talk to you other than I have been fan girling over you, and we’ve been like pen pals online for 

Asha: a decade. It’s amazing how that’s possible.

Tami: Isn’t it? I know. Right. I want to talk about your democracy club, your vote, plus one, work your community organizing. Can you tell us a bit more about how you were a tech writer, turned parenting writer? Turned community organizer. 

Asha: Absolutely. In fact, I think there is a sort of a surprisingly strange through line between all of those things.

Yeah. Being an early tech writer meant that I had a sense for the potential of the internet a long time ago. And I am a people person. So to me, the internet has always been about people more than it’s been about technology. So when I became a parent, it was a natural thing for me to search for community on the internet.

It was a tool I already knew how to use, and it was not about. At that time when I started my blog parent hacks, which was 2005, it wasn’t about I’m using air quotes, creating content. There was no such thing as creating content at that time, there was literally reaching out to people and that’s what I did.

And so I built the community that I wanted to have and that I needed myself as a struggling new parent. So. This notion of community organizing for me, it didn’t have a political bent to it. It was simply like, Hey, this is what’s going on with me. Is this going on with you? Let’s talk about it and see if we can help each other.

That was basically it for my community organizing. And during that time, that’s when I met Christine. Who is now my dear podcast, cohost, and my minimalist parenting co author, and most notably my one of my best friends. And so those are the, those are the kinds of relationships that could actually come up, you know, through that.

That connective time at the inner in the internet from there, you know, all my years of parenting, I think it’s important to note that now where I am with parenting is that I have one 21 year old child. And my youngest is a senior in high school. I am getting to the end of those active parenting years.

So I started when they were very young. Now I am where I am. And so when 2016 happened, Really all of my political organizing and community organizing around politics happened because I’m a parent. I would say that being the parents of two amazing children is what. Spurred me into it. It really spurred my political awakening.

I care about the future for my kids and by extension all kids. And I felt it was really important for me to get involved, to try to build the world that I hope that they live in, not just me. I mean, it was real them. So my parenting is intimately connected to my politics. And from there, it was about.

Actually doing a very similar thing I did when I started parent hacks, which was after the election 2016, saying to the people around me, Hey, this is going on. I’m not exactly sure what to do. What about you? Hey, why don’t we come together and talk about it? What can we do? How can we support each other? So it was a.

Surprisingly parallel process for me and little did I know that my organizing my local community here in Portland that was happening in cities and towns across the country, by the way, mostly led by women. And non-binary people I should say as well. So not just women were a part of my community, but it was a powerful experience.

And so those three things are really connected. 

Tami: And what’s also interesting for me and a watching. You have this political awakening is I actually started my political career or I started my job career in politics. I worked in California politics. I worked in Washington, DC, and then I moved to Portland, Oregon, and I actually worked for Senator Wyden in the 90 and 97 98 election cycle.

I worked on a statewide ballot measure. In Oregon called pro choice Oregon. I was a avid volunteer and volunteer fundraiser for Oregon Narelle. I worked at planned Parenthood in port. 

Asha: No idea. That’s amazing. 

Tami: Right? So, so I’m like look at all these full circle moments. And so you came to it with this through line of, through parenting.

And I come through my through line is. In every job, I’ve had political, being an elementary school teacher now as a life coach and a podcaster. And that is, I want to create the world to be a better place for women and kids. that’s the through line of my life. That is what gets me up in the morning.

And it’s not just to make it better for me or my daughter, but for all women and all kids and. I have a fundamental belief that our work isn’t done and tell everyone is safe 

Asha: in this world. 

Tami: Everyone is loved and cherished in this world. And until we’re there, we’re not done yet. 

Asha: And I think, first of all, that’s really powerful.

but I think the other thing is that there is for me becoming a parent. Really opened my mind, my heart and my experience to the experiences of other people. Now I will say that, you know, empathy has always been one of my things. So I definitely, I spent a lot of time then habiting the perspectives of other people.

That’s just the way that I was born and the way that I’m built, you know, people talk to me about that when I was a kid. So I’m not trying to, you know, this is not, This is just a way that I am, but I feel like parenting opened that up even further because, You know, these people, these small people come into your life and especially as a new parent, you sort of think to yourself, all right, I’m gonna, you know, mold this little ball of clay, but that’s of course not what’s going on at all.

They come out completely their own little humans. Yes. And you’re like, Oh, okay. Right. I need to get to know you and you are not acting in ways that I expected. And, and so it, it just opens you to the diversity of. Humanity in this world. And that is a beautiful thing. And so I have found, you know, these last four years have been pretty punishing for those of us who are, you know, empathetic.

And, I think that this has caused me to just dig even deeper to, Maintain my faith in the bridges that we can build between each other. You know? And I agree with you that this is about all kids and we, yes, we have more work to do, but that just means that there is so much more for us to experience as 

Tami: well.

Absolutely. And it’s funny because I came to parenting a later, like I was 40 when I became a parent and my daughter is adopted. And so I’ve always come to parenting through the, I wonder who you are because I did not make you. So I have to get to know you a little child who was not born of my genes. Who are you and what kind of world shall we live in?

And what do we bring the table to the table in your, in the nurturing sense? And what does nature bring to you? And seeing my little one grow up, I’ve always referred to her as a superhero because she is the smartest, the most athletic. The most empathetic and the person who makes me craziest, people always go, it’s no surprise that she’s your daughter.

I’m like, duh, cause she’s also at nine super outspoken and, and down for whatever cause we’re working on. And and it’s made me double down on my sense of creating a place that I want her to inhabit. 

Asha: both as a child 

Tami: and a grownup. And so I just, you know, whatever I need to do to make the world a better place, but I’m, it’s funny.

I’ve spent some time the last four years feeling, despair and, hopeless, 

Asha: but 

Tami: mostly what I felt is hopeful and the reason I’m feeling hopeful is people who have never. Privately. And certainly not publicly are coming out in ways, about civic engagement that has. It’s brought me to tears in the good way, because I’m like, this is what I’ve been waiting for my whole life.

So here’s a story in 1988 back in the olden days when there was no internet, no. Back in 1988, I was taking a government class at community college and I, it was right after the election. And I cried because I spent a lot of time crying in the late eighties and early nineties about politics. I went to my professor and I said, what is it going to take for young people and people to get engaged?

And to know that what they do every day, it makes a difference. And he said, I think the world is going to have to be on fire. Oh 

Asha: boy. 

Tami: And I was like, Whoa, Greg, tell us you better calm down. I don’t think I can handle that because I’m a really empathetic, caring, deeply caring person. But, you know, I think he may have been onto something 

Asha: and 

Tami: people have stepped up in ways that I’m like, okay.

But look at us now, look at all the engagement. 

Asha: you’re absolutely right. And I mean, I consider myself one of those people, frankly, you know, and I think that, you know, we can all point to any experience in our life when we’ve been pushed to our limit in a painful or difficult way. And we found that we could keep moving.

And those are the only times when we can actually be aware of those. Those limits and step over them. And so, yes, I think that on some level that is, I sometimes say that discomfort is required because I think that there’s just no other way and no other motivation that will push us as effectively.

Now I say that, but I am. Let me just be a hundred percent clear. I am not one of those, do something that scares you, constantly kind of people, because I don’t think we need to be in a constant state of fear or anxiety or discomfort, but sometimes, you know, the world hands us an opportunity, a prolonged opportunity for discomfort and, you know, we rise to the occasion and.

Let’s also be clear that rising to the occasion doesn’t necessarily mean that one has to become some total bad-ass community organizer rising to the occasion might just mean getting clear on your own internal values. It may be a completely invisible process to the rest of the world. So this does not everyone needs to be at the front, holding a big flag and leading the charge.

You know, this is. I think what, you know, what you’re saying is you’re seeing people step up in ways that they never have. Or maybe use their voices in ways they never have. Maybe they didn’t even know those voices existed. They didn’t even know they had those feelings. I know that I didn’t, you know, if someone would have said the word to me, patriotic, you know, five years ago.

So do you feel patriotic? I would say patriotic that’s it’s not exactly. I mean, I love. America or whatever, but patriotic is not a word that I would have identified with. I have to say these last four years, I have felt really proud of my patriotism in that I feel like I really care about our democracy.

And, you know, we’ll talk about democracy club and what that means, but it’s this acknowledgement that. No, it’s not perfect. Yes. There are major flaws in its founding, and I care enough and I love this place enough that I want to participate in making it better and it feels good to know. I, myself, 

Tami: two words there participate and the concept of making it better, right?

Like we have our way of life doesn’t exist without participation. 

Asha: Exactly. 

Tami: So I know that. I mean, I got to tell you when people are hiring a coach, it’s not because things are going perfectly. They’re like, I want to change. I’m itching to make change. And people also feel overwhelmed. They’re like, but I’m already busy.

I’m already the 

Asha: things. 

Tami: Yeah. So what do you say to people 

Asha: who 

Tami: are already pushed to the limit? What are some ways that people can be participating and use their time of participation? I love your democracy club. I would love for you to talk about that. And I also want you to talk about vote plus 

Asha: one.

Okay, sounds good. So I have been really focused on two sort of, I guess, projects. You could say one is totally focused on the election, which is called vote plus one and vote. Plus one is a video series, short video series and podcast that I created simply to point out the easy ways people can help turn out democratic voters just by, Doing things in their own life.

And the reason that why I called it vote plus one is because I’m encouraging people to vote. Plus choose just one of these actions do just one thing to help other people vote. Because like you said, we’re all overwhelmed, especially right now. This is. I actually have an allergy to the word unprecedented, but we’ve never lived this life before that we’re living right now.

And so if each of us chooses one additional thing to do, we will have a massive impact on voter turnout in this election. So that’s what vote plus one is. And so if you go to vote plus one.org, you can see the videos. It’s also a podcast. If you prefer just listening to audio and it’s just me spending two or three or four minutes talking about an action that you can take and you just choose the one that sorta resonates with you.

so that’s what vote plus one is. And really, I started it as a way, not so much to talk to the internet or people in general. It was really a way to connect with my friends, the people that I know, you know, basically the folks that I talk to, you know, In my actual life, because I truly believe that the people that we can most powerfully inspire and influence are the people that already know and trust us.

So that’s who I created this for. 

Tami: And I love that because I call it your sphere of influence. It’s who do you listen to when you want something? Right. So if I want to buy a new air fryer, I go to my friends who I know are like super nerdy researchers. And I say, which AirFryer should I buy? And they give me two or three options.

And then I don’t go to the internet. I go to my, who influences my decisions. If I want to, somebody I know has a pair of L like I voted leggings. I’m like, I’m going to go to that person and say, where do you get your. You’re voting participation clothing. Like I, you know, don’t, I mean, like I’m wearing one of Christine’s, Christine ho has a company called brave new world designs.

I’m wearing one of her t-shirts right now. And how did I do 

Asha: that? Also wearing one of her t-shirts right now. Which one did 

Tami: I worry? My vote one. Which one is yours? 

Asha: I’m wearing keep going. 

Tami: yes. Yes, 

Asha: because that phrase means so much to me. so Tammy, what you’re talking about is trust. And to me, trust is at the baseline of everything that we do.

And let me sort of make a segue to democracy club, which was the second thing that you mentioned. This also speaks to the overwhelm that we’re feeling part of the overwhelm that we’re feeling is that we are inundated with we’re inundated with a narrative that we’re getting, you know, from, you know, just the media, the internet, you know, about the chaos that’s out there in the world.

And. So many of us are feeling disconnected. partially, I mean, in large part because of the pandemic, we literally cannot spend time with the people that we love and the ways that we want to, but also just life gets busy and we get disconnected from the, you know, we get disconnected from friends and when we return to that, those connections, those relationships that actually fill us up and give us energy that.

Can give us so much more energy to engage in other places. And so that’s why my longer term project, and I have a feeling this is going to be something I’m going to be talking about potentially for the rest of my life is democracy club. Now democracy club is the idea of creating a model for political engagement that works like a book club.

So you get together with your friends, say once a month, you. You know, it’s a fun gathering. It’s got food, it’s got something to drink. It’s got hanging out and catching up. And then the focus is on being politically active together, politically engaged, learning together. Now during our pandemic, this probably will take place over video conferencing, but.

Before the pandemic happen. I have a group of about eight or nine folks who I get together with once a month. We do it in each other’s living rooms. We, you know, we bring food. It’s like a book club and we not only get to have a wonderful time together and, you know, strengthen our friendships. We learn from each other.

We talk about. What can sometimes be sticky topics in an environment that is, really scaffolded with trust and love. So even if I don’t agree, you know, in terms of the details with my friend about a particular issue, we know that we can talk about it. From a place of, Hey, but we love each other.

And we talk about these things together and it’s so important to have that space, to be able to talk about stuff, even with people who are politically similar to you, the fact is even politically similar people to you, aren’t always going to have the same opinions about every issue. And it’s important to be able to talk about that.

So that’s what democracy club is about. And I have a dream that democracy clubs will become, you know, if not as popular as book clubs, then popular enough to spread across the country where there just networks of small groups of local, you know, local groups of people just talking about stuff and doing things together.

It just it’s. I think the most important thing about it is that it’s fun and it’s connecting. And from there, it, I mean, it’s what our democracy is all about. You know, informed participation. 

Tami: I have chills from the bottom of my feet to the top of my head. 


and here’s why I have dreamed of exactly what you’re talking about forever.

And so I, it’s just interesting. Interesting, thing, you know what? You do something. I okay. Maybe this is just my immaturity talking when I do something, I think, God, everybody does this. Right? It’s like that thing that when you find out your strengths on the strengths finder, you just assume you’re like, that’s duh, this is not special.

What is special about me is not special. Cause it’s so ingrained in you that you’re like, what. Does everyone do this? 

Asha: it turns out 

Tami: Asha you’re onto something. Not everyone talks about politics with their friends. In fact, something like 75% of white women do not actually talk about politics with their friends.

There’s a book that is Al about that. Like how you have these conversations. So can we talk a little bit about the logistics? Like how did you choose who is going to be in your democracy club? Was this an established group of friends that you already had? Tell us a little bit about that because I am, I have my thinking cap on and I’m going to be starting one 

Asha: so exciting.

Tami: Oh, yay. 

Asha: Okay. So before I answer your question, I am going to, we can talk about the website later. There is a website that talks about this. Dem club.org. So go to Dem club.org. There’s a downloadable PDF and all that kind of stuff. So awesome. So if you don’t, you know, if your listeners do not remember a word that I say there is a place they can go surfing.

Great. Great. so how we chose. who was in our democracy club. It really grew out of, in my particular case, it grew out of my local organizing. So we did a ton of work around the midterm elections. In 2018, I led a group, in my community, focused on voter turnout in the midterm elections. And when did you do 

Tami: that?

Through a swing left or move on or in divisible or just your local Dems club? 

Asha: it was sort of an independent venture, 

Tami: but we pulled from all of those 

Asha: things. we pulled from all of those things. So, I’m actually, I will share another link with you that gives you a little bit of background of, of my organizing back in those years.

so because I wrote an op-ed about it for my local newspaper, the Oregonian, and that will give you all the backgrounder. So the folks in my democracy club were the, I guess you could say committee leaders that I had been working with in 2018. And so we said, look, we just want to keep meeting.

We know the election’s over. but we want to keep meeting because we had become so close and we work together so well. And so we just kept meeting, but we changed the, I guess you could say terms of our group. So I was no longer the quote unquote. Boss. I was now, we were now just a community of, you know, folks who got together and did this more like a book club.

So that’s how I chose. We did not know each other before 2016. Most of us, a couple of us did, but most of us did not. That’s how we met now. It certainly doesn’t have to be like that for somebody who wants to start at democracy club, it could be, you know, you could sort of reach out to the friends that you’ve been talking to the last, you know, couple of years and say, Hey, let’s like create a group and do this.

I think the main thing is that, You know, ideally you create a group that’s locally, like in local proximity. So that one, the days of Zim conferences are behind us, you can get together in person, but you know, that’s up to you. You can also create a virtual group if you, I think there’s something powerful about getting together in person.

so that is something that I would recommend, but it’s certainly not required. 

Tami: Yeah. I mean, I’m a super introvert. And so I’m always down for nev for not meeting in person. However, the pandemic has slightly cured me of that. I’m like, just kidding. I might actually want to see people in person 

Asha: like enough is enough already.

Tami: Exactly. I’m like, okay, I get it. I’ve had a taste of own medicine. Okay. also a couple of years ago, I read Gloria Steinem’s book. I want to say it’s called on the road, but I know that’s Jack Kerouac. There is a there’s the word road is in the title. And one of the things that struck me in that book was that she talks about the most effective organizing that she’s ever done, which is why she’s always on the road.

Is she calls it, breathing the same air with people, makes a difference and having that exchange of energy in real life, there’s absolutely no substitute for it, which is why in her eighties, she’s still traveling around, connecting with people. And as I agree, right. And as my, I have to mention Bernay Brown and Everett, every episode in hopes that someday she will come on my stalker ish podcast.

And that is when she talks about him. Brave braving the wilderness about you CA it’s hard to hate people close up. 

Asha: and what I talk about when I talk about democracy club is that this is a model that leads with trust and friendship. The trust and friendship is the first part. The political engagement is the second part, because the first part is all about creating a space where you feel energized, you feel, You know, I hesitate to use the word safe, cause it’s not about safe in that.

You will never be challenged. it’s more like embraced. And so. W you start with, with, you know, with a group of people that you want to spend time with, think about your book club. Think about like, how does one start a book club? you sort of think about your friends who seem to like reading and who might like each other and you know, you just get people together.

It’s as simple as that. I mean, if that’s simple, I know that’s not simple for everyone, but it doesn’t have to be, you know, this is not a political organizing project. This is a friend project. Right. 

Tami: And thank you for that, thank you for that. differentiation also, there is something to be said about being in community with other people who aren’t the experts and y’all are figuring it out together.

You’re not taking a class. No one’s in charge. The idea is that you’re coming together to learn something new and quite frankly, in order to effectively learn things. You have to feel safe. You have to be in community. That’s why there’s all that talk about, building community in schools. And so kids feel safe enough to take risks by learning, 

Asha: right?

Tami: There’s this, the push pull of. Being knocked off your center because you don’t know, but being held in that security of it’s okay. To take a risk. It’s okay to fail. It’s okay to get it wrong. It’s okay to fall short. And we’re still going to keep trying because when people feel unsafe, it’s when they shut down and they can’t learn and they can’t make change.

Asha: sure, because they’re in survival mode, you know, and I mean, I’ve experienced this as a parent, you know, both of my kids have been through their own educational Odyssey, so I know what that looks like. I know I’ve seen learning completely stopped when. Somebody is under stress on that level. and then I’ve seen the magic that can happen when, you know, it’s sort of like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, you know, once the sort of food, water, and shelter stuff, and love is taken care of.

Wow, it’s amazing what you can do from there. And I think that’s what democracy club is all about. It’s not about creating an echo chamber. It is about creating a space where you can. Engaged with really sort of like gnarly topics, like race and class and yeah. Stuff that you don’t know anything about.

Like maybe you don’t even know who your representative is in Congress and you feel dumb about it. you know what. A lot of people don’t know why would, you know, you need to go look it up and you know, there’s no reason why you should just naturally know that stuff. So it is really nice ways to have a place with friends where you can sort of ask all those questions.

You don’t necessarily feel comfortable, like raising your hand in some room full of strangers, asking questions, right. Because, you know, 

Tami: we don’t always 

Asha: know all this stuff, especially those of us who are new and that’s what democracy club makes possible. It makes possible a way for us to engage with our democracy in a way that feels good.

Tami: so Asha, when people tell you that they’re not political. Tell me what you tell me, how you run up against that. Cause I, that of course I silently seed, but what do you, what are your internal thoughts on that? 

Asha: I think it means different things to different people, but what I mostly think is that when somebody says I’m not political, you know, sort of with that, like that like crinkle in the nose, that sort of like tone of distaste.

It means that they don’t like to talk about politics and, or they don’t like to think about politics or, you know, or just that whole political landscape is just. Distasteful to them. The thing that is so important to me, especially in the context of democracy club, is that whether or not you like politics, you are still subject to politics.

Meaning that our country is governed by laws and policies on the state and the federal level. And so whether or not you engage, you are still going to have to follow those laws and be subject to those policies. And so when you don’t engage, first of all, what you do is your giveaway, your voice, and you’re letting other people make really important decisions about you and your family and your community.

But the other thing is that you democracy as a whole suffers because democracy is all about people participating in using their voices. That’s what it’s all about. It’s supposed to be messy. And so part of the reason why I think. The idea of democracy club is so important is that it gives us a place for that.

It gives us a place for us to talk about politics or more importantly, our lives and the policies that affect them in ways that. Are empowering, you know, in ways that give us sort of an on-ramp to actually get involved in when does not need to be a political activist to be engaged in our democracy. In fact, one doesn’t even need to think about politics that much at all, but one does need to think about what in our community matters and politics and.

Legislation and all that kind of stuff gives us a way to actually make those changes. That’s how it works in our country. And this gives you a hand in it. it’s really exciting when you think about it from that standpoint. 

Tami: I was just having a conversation with somebody recently, who has an idea.

they have a trans child. And they would like to make the world a better place for their child and every other child. And I was like, Oh my God, me too. So we were brainstorming ideas on how. this mom could affect change in her community and by effecting change in her community, in her state and in the country.

And I said, Hey, I don’t know if you know this, but one of the most effective things that really I hate this term gonna use it moves the needle is when real people with real. Issues concerns problems make direct connection with the people who represent them. And what I mean by that is, say something is happening.

I have another friend who her family is on the ACA her family had a very tragic, Thing happened where her husband got gravely ill and obviously used the ACA that was their insurance, this whole shebang. And this is the thing, what that friend did was she wrote a letter to her Congresswoman and then our Congresswoman read it on the floor of the Congress.

And that family’s personal story really got. Into the heart, mind and soul of our elected official. And when she is voting on legislation, she is thinking of that family. 


So I used to work for, or, an elected representative. Senator Wyden had these things called sidewalk office hours. And what that was is he would stand outside pals books, usually, the East side, the garden one, and he would stand there with a clipboard and a staff person and anybody who wanted to come by and talk to him, could come by and talk about anything.

And that staff person. That person’s job, right? Is that not Senator Wyden? He, that staff person’s job was to like take notes. This is the staff person that’s in charge of that. This is the concern. And it’s these real connections with real people. Like your next door neighbor talking to elected officials is what makes a difference.

Here’s the thing. So many people are like, it doesn’t matter. It’s all lobbyists. It’s all this. It’s all that I have seen. Legislators change their mind on issues. When they talk to real people, when they have families in their offices saying, this is how that law works in our community, this is how that works.

Their hearts melt. It kind of breaks our brain a little bit. I think they’re like, Whoa, I had no idea. Right. And so what we need is people to stand up and say, Hey. That thing that seems really abstract out there that affects real people and real families. 

Asha: boy, are you speaking my language, Tammy? And I think this speaks to that little word that you uttered at the beginning of this podcast, which was hope.

So I think. The thing that needs to be super clear in everybody’s mind is this notion of collective impact. Now. Because there’s a lot of cynicism out there. There are a lot of people who are like, Oh, come on seriously. I’m going to tell my boring story to my Senator, and then they’re going to change their vote.

That’s never going to happen. Okay. Maybe you’re right. Maybe you’re right. Your single story is not necessarily going to change, you know, your representatives vote on some big issue. However, I would like to now that may not be true. But it may be true. And I just want to remind people, you know, anyone who has ever boycotted a company because they don’t because the company does something, that, you know, something immoral.

And so you’re like, you know what? I don’t want to support that company anymore. Do you really think that your withholding buying, you know, for widgets from that company is going to hurt that company bottom line? No, but yet boycotts are paying. Powerful ways to vote with our wallet. Now I’ll give you another example, you know, your friend writes a book, for example, 

Tami: you was just talked 

Asha: about pre-ordering minimalist parents came out.

Does it, you know, did you personally did your one pre-order turn minimalist parenting into a bestseller? No, but when you tell your friends and a whole bunch of people do it right. That is we have collective impact and something like democracy club or joining any other sort of organization that I ensue about how our democracy works.

It reminds you that it’s all based on collective impact. When we all participate. When we all vote, when we all speak up and make literally 62nd call to our legislators office. Our representative’s office, whether it’s a state representative or a city council person or our us congressional representative, it’s not just one thing, it’s all the things.

But sometimes that one thing gets all the way through, like the story that you’re telling your friend’s story made it all the way to the floor of, you know, the, of us Congress. And we never know what that’s going to be. So it really is all about. You know, sort of not, everyone’s going to win the lottery, but somebody’s going to win it.

So buy the ticket, make the phone call, put your vote in the ballot box. That’s what it takes to really make change. And I think that. When we come together with our friends to talk about these things. And again, we lead with that trust and friendship. It really chips away that cynicism, because if you just sort of read that abstract media narrative out there, it does hurt.

It does feel hard to break through. 

Tami: But when you talk about, 

Asha: when you start hearing these stories among your friends and they start telling you know what, I had a friend who. Then did that. It reminds us that this is a human endeavor and human endeavors involve individual humans and that’s us.

Tami: Absolutely. And one of my missions that I’m sort of putting forth because I, of course so many people are like, I had no idea. He worked in politics. I’m like, I know it’s weird and it was a long time ago, but I have a degree in political science. I worked in politics for a decade. I want to demystify the process so that more people feel empowered to make these small changes every day.

It’s so funny because one of the, so many people hate using the phone and I’m like, cool. Here’s a pro tip West coaster call at dinner time, our time to the DC 

Asha: office. And leave your name, 

Tami: get your voicemail, leave your name and your zip code. Say yes or no, that you’re support or not. And that’s it. And hang up also, PS, if somebody answers the phone, I can almost guarantee it’s a scared college kid on the other end of that phone.

And they are hoping and praying and you are not calling to yell at them. Right? 


Tami: know that cause I used to have to, I had a ringing phone on my desk at one point and I worked for a very powerful, I used to work for Willie Brown, the longest serving speaker in California assembly. 

Asha: Oh my goodness. I remember Willie Brown.

I grew up in California, 

Tami: right? Yep. I mean, my armpits got sweaty every time the phone rang. Cause I was like nobody ever calls the speaker’s office to be like, you guys are doing a great job. Whoo. so my point is. It’s not like you’re ever going to get the member of Congress on the line or even the city council person.

Also, you don’t have to write a dissertation and you do not have to be an expert to participate. You have to be somebody who cares about stuff. 

Asha: That’s all. That’s it. You just have to be somebody who cares and 

Tami: take it one step further, you care and you call. And you don’t have to call, you could fax, you could telegram, you could write letters, you could do all of the things or one of the things 

Asha: it does.

It doesn’t 

Tami: have to be perfect. 

Asha: And that’s a, that is a story that I also really want to keep telling. I, you know, that’s actually a story that I, that was the whole basis of my community organizing in 2016, which was, Hey, let’s get together. There’s some really small, simple things that we can all do that maybe we’ve never done before, call our representative and.

Then, you know, I brought this group together. It was a large group by the time the indivisible guide came out and, hopefully your listeners know what indivisible is. If not, you can just link it up. But basically it was sort of a playbook for how to call your elected representatives and how that really works.

And I learned so much from that. So. Yes, I’m with you there. And that’s something that I want to keep talking about, and I just think it’s so important on the most basic level that, and this actually is connected to what Christina and I talk about on the edit your life podcast all the time we have to trust ourselves.

We have to. Embrace our own voice, our own story, whether it’s to make choices in our own lives about, you know, what we keep or toss in our pantries or how we declutter or how we parent. But that also goes to how we show up in our democracy. It’s. So important that we understand our own values and then talk about them.

That’s, it’s as simple as that, it’s as simple as living your own values, but of course I say it’s simple, but that’s you know, that’s the challenge of a lifetime really. And, you know, and we have lots of obstacles that get in the way, but. it can be an inspiring thing, especially when you do it with your friends.

Tami: Absolutely. I have this vision of, standing in a line and putting my hand out and having somebody else grab my hand and then somebody else standing in the line and holding their hand out and somebody else grabbing their hand, like we really are stronger together and getting out of our own way is one of the things.

Like we need to be, we need to take imperfect action. We don’t have to be experts before we take our first step. We don’t need a college degree. We don’t need a master’s degree. We just need a phone call. We, you know what I mean? and if you can research your ex-boyfriend’s new girlfriend online, you are well-qualified to speak on whether or not your representative should vote.

Yes or no on a bill. 

Asha: Yes. Yes. Like 

Tami: your Google fingers, friends are super awesome. 

Asha: I think the other, you know, the other thing to say here is that, you know, obviously we are right around the corner from this massive election and, you know, no matter what happens, we. Are human beings here together in this country.

And democracy works when people have differing views that are based in, Similar values. And when I say similar values, I don’t mean similar opinions or like similar religious values. I mean that similar values like kindness and empathy and fairness and justice. Those are very basic values when people of differing opinions come together, but share those values.

That’s when democracy works the best, because we need lots of different opinions. That’s how, you know, ideally, you know, the best opinions rise to the top, you know, obviously that’s ideally we don’t live in an ideal society. We know that, we know that a lot of these political fights, you know, are somewhat twisted and manipulated and all of that.

Sure. But. We have the ability to come together and talk about these things. And when you have that image of people linking arms, that’s the image that I have to, I just want that link. You know, I want that circle of people linking arms to grow bigger, you know, and to grow stronger. And that’s not necessarily about agreeing all the time.

Absolutely not, but 

Tami: some people would say, yeah, but look at what’s happening. It’s all this, it’s all that. And I say, the reason things are the way they are is because people have not been participating. 

Asha: Yes. 

Tami: When you let things run a muck, it’s like toddlers have taken over and they’re like, it’s the me first, the gimme gimmes within suits.

And it’s if you let power go unchecked, that’s what you get. If you want something different, you got to step into the fray, but you don’t have to be there alone. 

Asha: Yeah. And 

Tami: I don’t know about you, but I’m offering my hand to people to say, let’s do this together. 

Asha: Okay. Gosh, I’m getting the chills. I know.

I really, this is so moving, you know, and, you know, I. I see you actually offering your hand all the time, because you know, we interact online all the time. And I think the thing that I would say to all of your listeners is that each of you has the potential to also offer your hand. Again, you don’t have to step up and be some political leader.

You simply need to look left and right at a couple of friends and say, Hey, do you want to get together and talk about some of this stuff? That’s it, I don’t even know what exactly what we’re going to talk about, but I really care and I’m sure we can do something if we do it together, that’s where it starts.

So, you know what your bus has each of us do? That 

Tami: is, I actually, I’m going to tell everybody my plans. These are my private plans, but I’ll tell everybody here. Cause you know, Josh and I were just having a chat. So one of my friends and I have been, we meet every Saturday at 11. On zoom. She lives in Oakland.

She’s been one of my best friends since seventh grade. She’s a lawyer. She’s so smart. And we’ve been talking about, yes, we want to flip the Senate, but really we need to, work on making sure all of our all 50 state houses are blue. And so we’re talking about by the end of this year is putting together a giving club where we adopt a state house and we start fundraising like a little bit every month between now.

And two years from now, because guess what? Every two years we’re going to have an election, but we don’t stop between elections. we just do little contributions. So we’re going to do a giving club as one of our projects. And, and I’m like, I want to work with people to help them. I want to have a class called the elections over now.



Right. Which is, this is what we do. this is what we do next. Like I’m glad everybody’s woo. We voted. Oh, we did the one more thing. 

Asha: That’s terrific. 

Tami: But what do we do between 

Asha: election cycles? 

Tami: this is the time where we start. Going to meetings. This is the time where we start submitting public comments.

This is the time where we’re following legislation from committee to committee to find out who’s doing what, where things that are important to us, where they are in the legislative process. It’s that whole everyone, if you’re right now thinking of schoolhouse, rock, how a bill becomes a law.

It’s that, and it’s a little bit messier because they couldn’t get all the iterations in the one song. But we start doing that. And then again, I want to demystify this process because when our legislative members of all houses do not hear from us, they 

Asha: think we don’t know whatever they want.

They do whatever they want or they do whatever they want. Yeah. 

Tami: Do what the last person who spoke to them, told 

Asha: them. Yes. 

Tami: Right. But each one of us could be that member of the public who makes such an impact on our elected officials that they’re like, Oh my God, I had no idea 


Tami: was happening in my community.

I had no idea that’s how this thing would affect your particular family.  

Asha: that’s really exciting, Tammy. 

Tami: Right? Isn’t it? Yeah. 

Asha: It’s really exciting. You know, and I think it’s, you know, I would just add to that, you know, this is your vision, you and your friend, this is your vision that you’ve come up with.

This is clearly Jazzing you know, like I can hear the sparks flying out of your ears as you’re talking about this, you know, another person might say, you know what I want to create. I want to create a new version of schoolhouse rock because geez. I mean, we all saw that school house rock. I’m just a bill, right?

yeah. That’s basically most of our civics education maybe. Lee, maybe one of your listeners is an artist and a videographer or an animator and says, Oh my gosh, we should have a new school house rock. That might be a way that they engage 

Tami: or just had a vision of Randy rainbow doing it. 

Asha: Oh man. Or LaVar Burton.

Right. That whole, my two very different visions right there. Rainbow versus LaVar Burton or both of them. 

Tami: Right. By the way, do you know where LaVar Burton grew up in Sacramento? Oh, 


see local guy. I mean, I can totally just call him and be like, dude. So me and Asha darn fast. We’re having a chat on my pod.

Can you pay him in 

Asha: Tom? Hanks is in the East Bay. I mean, that’s where he grew up. 

Tami: sorry, Tom Hanks was here. First. 

Asha: Yeah, 

Tami: Molly Ringwald, Tom Hanks. I’m just, Oh, by the way, I’m from the East Bay. So like I got whole Northern California covered. I grew up, my mom worked at Cal. I grew up in El Sorito, Elsa Bronte.

Wait, did you went to Cal, right? 

Asha: I went to UC Berkeley and I grew up in Contra Costa County, but I lived in Berkeley in Oakland for years and years and years before moving to Portland, Oregon. Okay, 

Tami: yeah, let’s just keep our Venn diagram of some similarities growing with each model.

Asha: Yeah. Yeah. It’s totally crazy. Anyway, I just think 

Tami: we were in the same place at the same time. 

Asha: maybe it was the cheeseboard. 

Tami: Exactly. Okay. I have a friend who works there right now. 

Asha: Okay. Folks, the cheeseboard is this cheese shop slash bakery slash pizza. like it’s not a pizza company. It’s this.

It’s this amazing place. You have to go if you’re ever in North Berkeley. Yep. Just go there and eat the food. There are a million, more million, more Berkeley food establishments. I could talk about 

Tami: it precisely. Okay. So Asha, now that we have done on our connection, I do have to ask, because my podcast is about self care.

How does self care affect your work?

Asha: you know, I’m going to make it an admission. And that is that I sometimes can be terrible at self care. And this is my own, this is my own problem that I am actually working hard to fix. but really democracy club. My idea for democracy club was born out of. Really realizing that for me, self care is about connection with the people I care about and community.

So I am a person who really thrives when I am talking with other people. I am an extrovert. I need to be with my friends. Now, when I say extrovert, I don’t mean I need to go to parties all the time. What I mean to say is that I just need to feel connected to my friends, especially during times of difficulty or when I’m struggling with something.

So I will say that. Democracy club was completely connected to my own desire for self care. And frankly, so is every other communally sort of community organized, you know, project that I’ve ever done, including parent hacks. That was also about self care because I felt alone. And the way that I best care about myself is.

Getting connected to people. And that’s what I did when I started the parent hacks blog. That’s what I did when I started my, my political engagement group in 2016. And that’s what I did when I started my democracy. 

Tami: Yeah. And I love this answer because I think people have a misconception that. Self care is prescriptive.

And it really isn’t. It’s like what actually feeds your body, your mind, your community, your mental health. And so we define it for ourselves. Sure. There are some things that are, non-negotiable like sleep and food and movement and quiet. Like we like biologically, we need those things. But beyond that, really getting into What makes me feel alive?

What makes me feel like I can be part of something bigger than myself? What makes me feel like I am living my best life? It looks very different, 

Asha: depending on does. And again, this goes back to what I was talking about earlier, and what Christine and I wrote about a minimalist parenting and what we talk about every week on edit your life, which is that the answer to every question begins internally.

You have to ask yourself, what do you need? What do you care about? You have to trust those answers, which by the way, don’t always come right away. You know, it’s not like we just magically know what we need. We don’t always know what we need, but sometimes when we get quiet enough and we actually elevate our voice enough, we can hear, and we do know we have those gut feelings.

So, so yes, that’s really where self-care and my work are connected. And I think the. One additional thing I would say there is that self care and being connected to that internal sense of guidance is also what tells me it’s time to do something different. You know, so when I change my work, when I completely veered from writing about parenting to community, organizing and writing about politics, that was not planned.

Believe me, I had very different plans. I was in the last stages of my. Book tour when the 2016 election happened. I had very different plans for my writing career, but I was, you know, my internal guidance system led me in the direction that I went and I followed it. So in the end, you know, that’s when my best decisions I think get made.

I mean, they’re never perfect. I’m not saying I’m always right. I’m not, no, none of us has ever 

Tami: always. Right. Absolutely. And, but to use that. Oh, that was I’m on the wrong road. Doesn’t mean that you blow up the car and you stop. It means you back up and try something else. Right? 

Asha: Right. There’s always a, there’s always a turnoff.

Tami: Yes. Yeah. The next exit is available to you. So my question about that is how did you get in touch with your internal compass and how did you learn to trust that? 

Asha: my answer is not going to be super helpful because it’s just always sort of been like that for me. I have always been a highly intuitive person and I think the conditions of my life growing up, meaning, you know, I have two wonderful parents and I had a happy upbringing and not a lot of friction, in terms of my school life and friendships allowed me to just say, Hey, you know, whatever I’m doing, it’s working and I’m gonna keep doing it. And I’ve just always done that. So some of it is the luck of my circumstances.

Some of it is just the way that I internally am. And, but. I say that, but obviously, you know, I’m in my fifties, it’s not like my life has been this effortless tiptoe through the tulips ever since then. I mean, I have hit plenty of pretty big obstacles. the good news is that I sort of already had my intuition on board and, Strong relationship with that intuition.

So that was just the way that I navigated. So I realize it’s not like that for everyone. You know, some people are just more in their head and less in their gut and that’s fine. You know, this is what works for me. part, 

Tami: excuse me, 

Asha: part of why I love doing. The edit your life podcast with Christine is that Christine navigates her life so differently.

And she has a completely different set of tools that she uses to make progress in her life. But, you know, we are so connected because our values are so aligned, but the way that we go about expressing those values and sort of manifesting them out in the world totally different, you know, she, we joked, she’s the queen of the spreadsheet, you know, she can just like.

Have a 100 dot, you know, bullet to do list and just start at number one and go, boom. And be at like 57 by the end of the day, that’s just how she is. And so, and that’s not how I am. So, you know, that’s. That’s such an individual process. It’s such an annoying answer. I realized that, no, I don’t think it’s annoying 

Tami: because I, I fall more towards the Christine end of this.

And I will say my answer is lots of therapy. 


right. Like I like learning to trust myself either. So it’s if you don’t have it yet friends. That is a process that you can learn. It usually involves a, another mental health professional to help, but it is possible. 

Asha: Thank you for saying that because I too have had a lot of therapy.

Let me be very clear about that. You know, I feel 

Tami: like it’s misleading. 

Asha: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like therapy is better than a massage. I mean, like you need someone sometimes to help you guide to help guide you through the, you know, the thicket because yeah. Nobody has a friction-free life.

Nobody does everything they needed when they grew up nobody 

Tami: and nobody is born with the tools like, Oh, go to the person that has a full toolbox. Who’s Hey, I have some tools for that. And you’re like, cool. I just have to pay you money and be really uncomfortable for a while for you to share your tools with me.

Asha: Okay. Right. Has to keep going. 

Tami: I have to keep applying the tools you say. 

Asha: Okay. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Okay, absolutely. 

Asha: Very important. 

Tami: So what I usually ask here is what did you learn about self care growing up? But what I heard you say is that you grew up in a loving environment where you got to be, you got to have your feet in a foundation so that you could go off and learn.

Asha: Yes. Yes, indeed. Now, you know, it’s funny. My parents were very strict, so it’s not to say that I, there wasn’t a lot of room for me to do a lot of expressing necessarily, but it just so happens that my parents got a kid who was pretty easy going, you know how it is like your kid’s just born the way they’re born.

Right. yeah. 

Tami: And they only become more of who they are as they grow. 

Asha: They become more of who they are. So I have two kids, one of whom is just, you know, the way he learns is by pushing against things. That’s just the way he learns. And so he was my first. And so I was the thing, I, my husband and I, the, we were the things that he pushed against.

Right. And I thought to myself, geez, you know, I never said no to my parents. then my second child came along. She learns completely differently. It’s a totally different thing. And it had nothing to do with what I taught either of them. It had to do with who they are at their core. That’s just how they were and how I was at my core as a baby, as a toddler, as a little kid was just an easygoing kid.

You know, it’s just the way it was. And my mom only now does she say, geez, I got lucky because you know, for most of my growing up she’s it’s because we disciplined you. And I’m like, I remember at a certain point going mom, it’s not because of anything. It’s because you got lucky. She’s you’re right.

Tami: Oh my God. I love that you share that a couple of years ago. my kid went to a, Preschool. It was parent participation and basically it was a parenting class and then there’s a preschool component and one of the other parents. So we, so in other words, we had weekly meetings. We had weekly classes, it was a really great, community of people to be in.

And one woman had three kids, three sons are these little toe heads and the first two. Yeah, they were just like these, they practically came, installed with halos over their heads. And, and then as she likes to say, the third one reminded me, it’s not me. She’s I was so smug and tell my last one came along and now I’m like, Oh my God, this is so much harder than I thought it was.

And it turns out the first two are raising themselves. She was like, I thought I was such a good parent. 

Asha: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s just a boy. we could go on for it. We could go on for hours about this, you know, it’s not to say we have no effect on our kids. It’s not to say we should never take any credit when, you know, when they do wonderful things or.

Have no responsibility when they do things that are, you know, but it’s just so much bigger and more complex than that. It’s 

Tami: they’re a different person from us, right. Not third party into our marriage. Hey, there’s a new person here. 

Asha: Come on in 

Tami: on. have are you going to read, you know, 

Asha: so true.

So true. 

Tami: Okay. So where’s your self care going? what needs more attention 

Asha: would you say? my self care is going well in terms of my identifying what it is I love to do. And then setting aside time and clearly a license, it looks different right now because we’re in a global pandemic. And so I am not out and about in the world as much as I like, which is actually what gives me energy.

And so it’s really forced me to think about, okay, what can I do in my home? What can I do alone? Or just with my family that actually fills me up. And right now, for me, big time, it’s gardening and, and also cooking. And it’s also just reaching out to my friends individually. And so I am really trying to spend time doing that.

And then the other big piece of this is that I’m exercising and I’m walking. So I’m really trying to focus on my body and this has something to do. this is something I’ve been trying to do for years. I’ve never been able to get a regular exercise habit like established. And, I just, I’ve struggled with doing that for one reason or another, my whole life.

I’m not sure why, even though I actually enjoy exercise, but, you know, so the really big thing that’s happened to me this year and there’ve been a lot of big things, but the really big thing is that my dad passed away in February and my dad was a daily exerciser. So, you know, when he passed away, he was in his mid eighties.

And this was a surprise. This sort of came out of nowhere. The fact is that he was as physically capable in his mid eighties, that as he was pretty much for my entire childhood, and that was a result of daily exercise and good eating. So in a way, now my exercise is to honor my dad and it’s taken on a very different.

cast in my life than just I should exercise or this is good for me or even, you know, I feel good when I do this. This is really also about a way for me to connect with my dad. So that is a big form of self care for me. 

Tami: I will say I actually cried when your dad died because. the way that you speak about your dad is so touching.

I could actually cry now, right? The second. 

Asha: Me too. 

Tami: but also, too, I, my mom died five years ago and I looked down though, my mom was only 69 when she died and I have a young child and I thought, okay, I need to project out 30 years. Where do I want to be in 30 years? And I want to be in my mid eighties.

And to have my kid be like, wow, it’s she’s still 50. 

Asha: let me tell you, 

Tami: right? Like I take care of future, Tammy. Yeah. Every morning when I go on a walk. 

Asha: Oh, I just love the way that you said that just, that sums it up right there. Yes. We’re 

Tami: taking care of them. We’re taking care of our future senior citizens.

Right, right, right. 

Asha: I will tell you this. I took, you know, one of the most, I would say the before after moment, there are, I mean, there are more, there’s more than one before. After moment in my life. One of the before after moments is this huge hike I took in Zion national park with my dad, to the top of this hike called angels landing, which is.

unbelievable hike. And the end of it is really precarious. You’re literally like hiking on the edge of this cliff. It’s sort of shocking to me that hike is even legal, frankly, because people fall off. 

Tami: If every year I was just thinking that I was like, this sounds both heavenly and terrible at the same time.

Asha: Like it was both of those things. It’s exhilarating 

Tami: because I could die any moment. Yes. 

Asha: So I took this hike with my dad when he was in his mid seventies. The reason I took this hike with my dad was because when I was nine years old, we went camping in Zion, national park. And dad took that hike by himself because I was too young to take it.

And he talked about it for the rest of my life. So one day I was like, okay, I got to take that hike, dad, someday let’s go to Zion national park. And we did it and we didn’t do it until he was in his mid seventies, but we did do it. And. Let me tell you, he actually, there were moments that I was so petrified on that hike that my dad had to say, okay, take your left foot and put it here.

Okay. Now take your right foot and put it there. That’s how scary it was because I was standing on the edge of this 1200 foot cliff or whatever. And I just want to say that he was in his mid seventies. He was, this was something that he could do. And. Exactly to your point, Tammy. And I’m so sorry about your mom, you know, but you like, you have the chance to do this, you know, for your kid.

And I have the chance to do it too. Hopefully. I mean, we don’t control everything, you 

Tami: control everything, 

Asha: but we can control this 

Tami: well, but we, as you says, you can put yourself in front of beauty. You can get in the way of beauty. It’s like I’m putting myself. I’m stacking the deck in favor of my future being flexible, strong and mobile.

Yeah. I’m doing my part. I’m putting my faith in my daily things to help project the future. I want and sure. Some catastrophic thing might happen, but here’s what I will say. my go-to question in my head, honest to God is Oh my God, what’s the worst thing that can happen, but I’m going to challenge everyone.

The real question I want everyone to ask is what is the best thing that could happen? Because it’s really easy to get stuck in. I’m not going to do anything cause bad things might happen. Sure. Okay. That is true. Bad things might happen, but can we for once prepare ourselves for the good that could happen?

What if the election turns out that it’s such a blue wave, that I can go to bed at eight Oh five on Tuesday, I’m going to tell you what friends I’m going to get up on Wednesday. I’m a slap y’all high five. That’s what, I’m a good, and I’m going to hold that vision for the future. I want whether it’d be my daily exercise, completing that damn stress cycle.

So I don’t drop dead from a heart attack between now and Tuesday. I am putting out what I want to see in the world, because for me. For my, how my brain works. It’s really lazy for me to catastrophize. Yeah. It’s that’s my go-to, that’s my easy channel. So when I’m challenging myself to ask what the best thing could happen is it’s not because I will never be accused of being a Pollyanna.

Anyone who has spent any time with me is like, Whew. That was kind of biting. I’m like, you’re welcome. You should hear my inside thoughts. however I do hold the hope of a better world. It’s what gets me up in the morning. It’s what keeps me going. It’s what gives me energy.

Asha: I sort of feel like we need to just stop talking there, but there are 5 million things I could say, but most of them are some variation upon. yes. 

Tami: And this is why we’re friends. 

Asha: Okay. So, 

Tami: what’s your morning routine. 

Asha: My morning routine is coffee. First coffee first. It’s you know, that’s just my motto.

Maybe I should put that on a t-shirt you totally should. I love coffee. I love coffee. that’s because I came of age in Berkeley, California, and I, you know, I’d cut my coffee, drinking teeth over there. so first things first I wake up, I go turn on my coffee, which I have set up the night before. I generally sit and read the newspaper.

Although I have changed my routine in that I have now delayed that and I start by writing in my journal because I. actually my most creative and alert the moment I wake up strangely enough. And so that’s very, that’s super valuable time. And for me to spend it, filling my mind with other people’s words and other people’s narratives and then the, just the distraction that comes with that, it’s just not, it’s not a good use of my brain power.

So I write in my journal and then I read my newspaper and then usually I walk my dog. 

Tami: What I heard you say is connect with yourself. And, what is it create before you consume and move your body? 

Asha: These are, that sounds so much better. 

Tami: These are excellent forms of self-care. I love it, girl. Yeah. Catherine, I am a, I’m a professional reframer so, I li I like what you’re putting down there.

and I do have a question. And I think I know the answer. When you said you read your paper Asha, do you get a newspaper delivered to your house? That’s on paper. 

Asha: Oh, I used to, I, so I used to, and then I stopped doing it. I greatly prefer a paper newspaper, and I’m still mourning a loss of our local state paper.

The Oregonian. No longer being a daily. It just kills me. I love reading the daily local paper, but we don’t get it anymore. So I get my newspapers online, but I am a paid subscriber to three different newspapers. Let me just say, put out there folks pay for your news. 

Tami: I will say free 

Asha: the free press and especially local journalism.

Tami: I will say I subscribed to the Washington post and. I will just say, 1990, Tammy is like, why are you subscribed? Are you ready for this, to that conservative rag 

Asha: and Erin? 

Tami: because of my thought is I need to know what something that’s not as liberal as me as saying. And so I was like the Washington post.

It is, and I read it. I’m like, okay, even they’re being critical of this administration. So I’m just saying I’m not completely off my rocker in my 

Asha: criticism. I just think it’s really important for people to remember that there are journalistic standards and now yes, different press outlets have different.

they might like lean one way. The wall street journal leans one way and you know, another. Newspaper might lean another way, but there are journalistic ethics in terms of truth and in terms of facts. And that is really important to say out loud. So lutely, I think it’s really important to know that there are lots and lots of opinion.

you know, sort of more like propaganda sites out there that are not news organizations, these old and trusted news organizations not perfect, but they do run. you know, according to journalistic ethics, and that is absolutely critical or a place like, you know, NPR, for example, this is journalism. This is not just people spouting their version of whatever it is they want to put out 

Tami: there.

And by the way, we are actually slapping a Hi-Fi right now, again, it’s one of those things where I’m like, are we talking about the air we’re breathing and the water we’re swimming in? Yes. But I realize, again, not everyone has. Thought this all the way through and I’m like, so pay for your journalism and only, also know the difference between an opinion page and an opinion piece versus a journalistic piece.

And please can we only share things that have been vetted through this editorial process? 

Asha: Yes. Yes. That’s very important. That’s something, you know, I, I’m, I’ve been pretty active on Twitter these last few years. 

Tami: I love that. 

Asha: I’ve been a, I’ve been on Twitter since 2008, so I’ve been on Twitter for a long time.

But I specifically say that I only share, you know, vetted sources. I won’t just retweet anything. Like I’m not gonna retweet somebody unless I’ve dug into who they are and it doesn’t have to take long, but. That is absolutely a value of mine. We have to maintain that understanding and have some sort of media literacy.

So we can navigate this landscape. That’s a topic for a whole nother discussion. 

Tami: Absolutely. And I’m totally ready to have it whenever you’re, whenever you are. Okay. Asha, what else should people know about you and where can they find you online? 

Asha: you can find me online in a number of places. First.

I’ll just talk about my blog, Asha, Dorn fest.com. So that is just the place where you can go. You know, you can just go there and find out what I’m up to. I haven’t been writing as much on my blog recently, but that is going to change because in 2021, my social media presence is going to change dramatically.

We’re still working out the details, but, my blog is always my sort of go-to place. You can also find me on various social media, platforms at Asha Dorn Fest, going forward, that’s going to be Twitter and Instagram and, I think the best way to get to know me though, really is to subscribe to the, edit your life podcast.

Because my conversations with Christine, you know, we cover so many topics and we go so many places and I feel like there’s just, as you know, there’s just something so intimate and human about podcasts it’s really special. So, you could find out more about edit your life, using your podcast app, just search for edit your life or go to edit your life.


Tami: I will say that I have, since I have listened to every episode, I have been feeling like you and Christine are my best friends 

Asha: for years. 

Tami: and that’s one of the reasons why I started a podcast. I’m like, I feel like I’m best friends with every host, that has ever had a show, joy, the Baker.

Had their show. she and Tracy Benjamin from shutter bean. It was right when I became a parent and I just listened to every single one of the shows. And I, it made parenting not so lonely because I would listen to it. It was like having NPR on, but it was just two gals, two friends talking about totally important unimportant things.

And it just delighted me. All right. I’ll show you ready for the speed round? Yes. All right. What’s your Enneagram? 

Asha: Oh, I don’t know. I’ve never done my Enneagram. 

Tami: Oh my God. Okay, I’ll just tell you, 2021 is your year. And I have a series. I will send it to you. And a couple months ago, me and my friend, Holly Holt got together and we did 10 episodes on the Enneagram and how it relates to self care.

We give the good, the bad and the bad. 

Asha: Oh, interesting. So I’ll send that 

Tami: to you. Yeah. And I have a number in my head and when. You finally winnow down what you think you might be. Let us jump on a call so we can discuss. So you already told me that you’re an extrovert. 

Asha: Do you know yet? I did the Myers-Briggs like when I was, I think 22.

So back then they said, Oh, I don’t even remember E M definitely E N TJ, but I don’t think I’m an N TJ. 

Tami: Okay. 

Asha: But I definitely think I’m in an Ian and N. Okay. It’s that way. 

Tami: I will say that when I did that, I’ve done a million Myers-Briggs tests and every time I got it back, I was like, this is a bunch of baloney.

And then I did it one time where I was in a super bad mood, like the worst mood. And I’m like, maybe it was get on the verge of getting sick. And then I got my results back and I was like, Oh my God, this is exactly me because I think I was answering the questions aspirationally, like this is who I think I am.

But really when it came down to brass tacks, I was like, No, I’m this other kind of less evolved person. Okay. So Gretchen Rubin has a framework that helps people build habits and it’s called the four tendencies. 

Asha: I know them. Okay. 

Tami: And so are you an obliger, a rebel, a questioner, or an upholder? 

Asha: I’m an obliger.

Yeah, I am definitely a work within the system kind of person. And I love harmony and sometimes that works to my disadvantage, but let me tell you, as I get older, I’m less and less concerned. 

Tami: Totally also. But then when you said you’re like, I can’t figure out how to make this exercise thing happened.

I’m like, I bet you’re an obliger. If you got yourself, if you met one of your neighbors, At three o’clock in the morning to go on a walk. I bet you all the money in the world, you would never leave your neighbor standing out there by themselves. 

Asha: Oh, that’s absolutely true. This is what, this is why my dog has gotten a walk every single day of his life.

Tami: So, so they can be great accountability partners. 

Asha: I know. I’m like, Hey, I really prioritize that guys walk. Interesting 

Tami: you. So it’s get a friend, get a pet, get an exercise habit. 

Asha: Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: Do you know that your love language, 

Asha: my love language. 

Tami: So it can be acts of service or I to translate them back in my head.

Cause I call it getting shit done. Acts of service. Gold stars is words of affirmation. Physical touch quality time is asses in the seats and gifts are gifts. 

Asha: Oh boy. I know, I think gold stars. Okay. Words of affirmation really do a lot for me. 

Tami: Oh my God. Me too. 

Asha: I mean, yeah. 

Tami: You wrote me a letter to tell me I’m nice and pretty.

Yes, friend, you change oil in my car. We’re totally making out. So like, why are real clear? huh. 

Asha: Yeah. It’s not, it’s it’s not about flattery, but it definitely is about being seen. That is just Oh yeah. Woo. 

Tami: I guess, you guys could pay me in genuine compliments, which is why I was terrible in a regular work environment.

Cause I was like, I’m going to need more specific feedback in the positive regard. And if you give it. You’re going to get the best work in the entire world. And if you’re not really good at this, or you don’t see the value of that good luck motivating me, cause money ain’t going to do it right. Sadly money is not my motivation.

Okay. What is the favorite last book you read?

Asha: The overstory. I haven’t finished it yet, but it is such an unbelievable book. It’s a novel it to say that it’s about trees really undersells it. I’m just going to leave it 

Tami: there. Okay. It’s a novel. Yes. What genre is 

Asha: it? 

Tami: Oh, it’s not science fiction. It’s not, 

Asha: no. It’s dystopian of stories about people across.

Various sort of eras and epochs and very different people, but there is a connection between all of those people and that connection has to do with trees. 

Tami: Okay. I’m in a, 

Asha: it’s huge and amazing 

Tami: doing this podcast just so I can mind people’s bookshelves. So welcome to my book, my books 

Asha: club, the 

Tami: club podcast.

What’s your favorite book of all time? 

Asha: Oh, boy, that is so hard to answer. let’s see, there was a book that completely changed my life when I read it in my college English class and it was called Pilgrim at tinker Creek by Annie Dillard. And it was, it’s almost like a. You could draw a parallel to Walden pond.

I mean, it’s a memoir and a sort of meditation on nature and connection and it was absolutely magnificent and I re-read it recently and it blew me away all over again. That would be one of them. My favorite classic book was Madame Bovary. 

Tami: Wow. 

Asha: Amazing. 

Tami: I love when we read books. And they make an impact.

And when you reread them, you’re like, I was spot on in my twenties. How did I even know how great this was then exactly. Right. Or you experienced in a way that you’re like, Oh, I get why it made sense then? And it still makes sense now because it deeply informed who I was then. 

Asha: Right. Or it’s spoke to something elemental that hasn’t changed even though the complete sort of circumstances of my life and experience have changed.

Tami: Okay. I do have to ask a different question. This is not on there, but have you read the book? Hope never dies by studs Terkel. No. Okay. it’s a book about it’s interviews about people and the idea of hope. And all I did was cry through the whole thing because I am. Any eternal optimist. And so therefore I feel like hope runs deep in me.

so I get my feelings hurt a lot because I’m like, Oh my God, it’s not as hopeful as I thought. However, being in community with other people who are also hopeful, it. it brings out more in me. So I recommend that one. 

Asha: Let me tell you, I plan to go on a huge crusade for hope starting like tomorrow, because I just think that some people think hope is for chumps.

And I think that hope is the most courageous, possible thing that you can do and it’s born out. it’s born out in this world, so we’ll have that discussion sometime. 

Tami: Absolutely. Okay. What is your favorite personal development book? 

Asha: Oh boy. you know, I have, I also have multiple answers to that. Great. Said your favorite? I would, you know, it’s not a personal development book. Exactly. But I found dear sugar to be one of the most moving. it was like a revolutionary book for me. Not because Cheryl strayed necessarily said things that like, She did say things that blew me away, but it was the generosity, this radical generosity that she brought to that role as anonymous advice.

Giver that to me was just beautiful. 

Tami: I would say tiny, 

Asha: beautiful things. Excuse me, dear sugar was their podcast. Pardon me? Tiny, beautiful 

Tami: Asha. I read that while I was in Portland. On, like an extended house stay. I was house sitting for somebody. So sometimes I like to come to Portland and stay for a few weeks.

So I just house it for like friends of friends on vacation. And I remember reading that, I think I got the first paragraph on the first page. I started crying. Because I had never read the column. I was like, why is everyone making such a big deal about this Cheryl street? Everyone’s talking about wild, blah, blah, blah.

I can’t like that because it’s so popular. So I was like, I’ll read this other thing that she’s written to see if I can even stand this woman. PS, foreshadowing. I would like Cheryl straight to be on my podcast. 

Asha: Okay. but I will say, Oh, you weren’t done, 

Tami: but just the kindness and just generosity that they offer through that column to real people in real pain, it kind of made me go, this is the world I want to live in.

Where there is pain that is met with empathy and understanding and generosity. Also zero bullshit. It’s not like everyone gets a pass. It’s not yes, you should totally keep having an affair with your bosses married, blah, blah, blah. But seeing the humanity. Oh 

Asha: yeah. Yeah, that was just, it was just unbelievable.

Just tiny fact share lives in Portland. So you can like soak in the energy. We met many years ago before she wrote wild. And even then I was like, what an amazing person we met at a literary salon in somebody’s house. It sounds really sort of like fancy, but it wasn’t 

Tami: just sounds that just actually sounds like Portland.

I’m sure everyone was wearing some sort of boot. Dental, probably 

Asha: rain jacket. I actually made, I have friends that I still talk to today that I met at that gathering. And she’s been, she’s just been an amazing human being forever. And so it’s just anyway. Yes, that book, I’m just gonna, that’s the book that I’m going to choose.

There are other books that I could offer, but that’s the one that really, has stayed with me, stayed in my heart. 

Tami: It’s yeah, I’m going to co-sign on that. Okay. What is your favorite social media channel? Meaning where do you like to actually hang out and interact with people? 

Asha: Okay.

I have a somewhat tortured relationship with social media. I would say that, I love to talk to people on Twitter. Believe it or not. not, that’s not where I exactly have my quote unquote community, but that is a place to have. Really interesting conversations, like far beyond my pay grade, so I can reach out to journalists and other people and just engage them in conversation.

I find that super stimulating and interesting, but Instagram is where I really like to talk to my friends. I find that to be, a good, you know, Imperfect, but good place. That’s where I’m hanging out these days. 

Tami: And I have to say on Twitter, I feel like it is a cocktail party full of hella smart people, because one of my favorite things in the entire world is to be not the smartest person in the world or in the room, but to be with people who are super smart and kind and funny, and I’m like, Oh my God, this is where they all are.

I think I’ll be quiet and listen. 

Asha: Yeah, Twitter gets a bad rap and, you know, people and Twitter, I mean, abuse is a problem on Twitter. I’m not going to in any way minimize that, but my experience on Twitter hasn’t been that it’s been a place for me to talk to people with very different perspectives and different backgrounds, professional, not in my field, you know, and I just find that to be true.

Interesting and useful. Me 

Tami: too. What is your favorite TV show? And this could be your favorite TV show growing up your current one, the last one you binged, the one that you’re writing for yourself right now. 


What kind of media do you like to consume or 

Asha: favorite TV show ever? Is Battlestar Galactica.

Is that show, man, that just Oh, I, first of all, I grew up watching star Trek. So I’m like into this scifi and space shows and all that kind of stuff. So, and I watched the original Battlestar Galactica. I’m talking about the new Battlestar Galactica. Let me tell you that show will blow your mind.

It was so much, it was just so unbelieve. 

Tami: I interviewed somebody last week and they said that, so this thing, so you’re. Blowing my mind because you’re the second person in a week who said that. And so meaning that there is a female, captain in the 

Asha: new one, just watch it. Yes. Like female president, male captain, you know, Cylons of all stripes.

It is not, it is, You know, you think that it’s about, you know, space aliens and spaceships and everything. It’s really about humanity and ethics and, good and evil and the most basic questions that we face. It is such an unbelievable show. And I’m a total critic. Let me tell you, I am hard to please, when it comes to TV, 

Tami: I love that about you.

And I will say that. Once the election is over. I’ll be ready to look into another world. So it’s on my list. Okay. And finally, with a hat tip to inside the actor’s studio, Asha darn fast. What is your favorite swear word? 

Asha: Oh, there are so many 

Tami: it’s so funny. Cause I was like, I don’t know if I’ve ever heard Asha square.


Asha: I don’t swear a lot. I’m actually on my public channels, but it’s really funny because when I text with my friends or talk with them, they’re like, Damn. I didn’t know. You swore so much. I’m like, Hey, so done. 

Tami: Well done. 

Asha: I’m 

Tami: exactly discourse 

Asha: clean. I answer this, cause it’s going to sound coy, but I, you know, cause bad-ass, isn’t exactly a swear word, but it’s also the kind of word you say.

And some people will sort of look at you. Cross-eyed, but I love that word. I absolutely love that word because it just, I don’t know. It really typifies like kind of what I want to be and what I appreciate and other people right now. And, so. That’s not really a swear word. that’s really slinking out of this question.

I’m gonna say that a well-placed F-bomb is an extremely effective tool. It must be used sparingly and it must be used effectively. So if you say it too much, it loses all impact. What, when you say it at the right moment, it’s almost like having comic timing. It’ll get people to wake up and look at you and go, Oh my gosh, she’s really serious.

Tami: Okay. I fall into the. I was an elementary school teacher. And so I had to hold them in for three decades. And so they just fall 

Asha: out all coming out. 

Tami: They all come out to they used to come out at three o’clock when the door closed. but I will take that. And I, and it’s funny because again, depending on what lens you’re looking at, it bad-ass can be, it will give you a side eye in the classroom, perhaps from your mom.

So it can be that however, I agree that a well-placed F-bomb does in fact punctuate well, 

Asha: yes, it does punctuate well, although I have to say, I am totally sick of that word, appearing on book titles. Like I don’t lazy. I think it’s enough already. it’s not funny and it’s not clever and it’s not shocking like enough.

Like you gotta have some, you gotta have a little restraint when using. First words, in my opinion, I 

Tami: co-sign that so hard. And I’ll just leave it at that. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I have thought about this and I agree. So, thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing this conversation. Hey everybody, if I don’t talk to you between now and the election, remember that you matter too.

And so does your vote.



EP 69:  Finding Joy in the Messy Middle Paula Jenkins

EP 69: Finding Joy in the Messy Middle Paula Jenkins

This week’s episode is all about finding Joy in the Messy Middle. Paula and I talked about finding the little joys in our lives. We talk about what small extravagances make a huge difference: spending time and effort to create a work space and zoom background that works, letting go of good enough and leaning into just-right-for-me, and really leaning into the inner princess and the pea. 

Asking what would make this thing 3% better for ME?

We also talked about how our present self can care for our future self in a way that leaves us feeling deeply loved and cared for.


Tami: Good morning and welcome 

Paula: at low Tammy. How are you? 

Tami: I’m fantastic. Who are you? And what do you do in the world? My friend. 

Paula: Well, my name is Paula Jenkins and I am a podcaster at jumpstart, your joy and podcast producer, and a coach. And I mean a mom life, you know, all the other things do, but yeah, that’s my work.

Tami: Awesome. So tell me, what does a podcast producer, do I know what a podcast or does they tell stories? They interview people. You’ve interviewed some amazing people on your show, but what do you do as a podcast producer? 

Paula: That’s a great question. We, w. I mean, we do the editing piece, which I think is a lot of what people think of as someone that you would hire to help with a podcast.

In addition to that, it’s kind of like a TV producer. So I work with, or I work with hosts to help define, what is their content about and what are some of the things that they can do to consider the strategy of what’s behind? if they have a business and their podcast is attached to their business, how do they.

Kind of link the two and make the stories that they’re telling, you know, what bring in clients that are a good match for them. And also how do they tell stories that excite them and bring out, you know, whatever their mission is in this world. and share it in kind of a heartfelt way. Cause my sweet spot are the people that I love to work with the most are what I called.

Call heart-centered disruptors. So like they know what they’re doing or they’re at the top of their field, but they’re also doing it in kind of a rebel way, which totally fits with, yeah, my Gretchen Rubin, tendency, which is rebel. Oh, 

Tami: I love rebels. So yeah. So tell me if somebody is listening right now and they are either like, so where are people.

In their business journey when they’re like, you know what, I need to figure out how to do this. What is the sweet spot of client for you? Is it the brand new person who’s I don’t know. Or is it the person who’s this is what I do. This is who I do it with. Tell me more about that process. 

Paula: Sure.

It’s really somebody who’s been in it a little bit. I think, Well, a podcast is a great way to help identify further what your message is from a marketing standpoint. And that’s been my background for 20 years is I was actually a producer for digital content in a bunch of ad agencies. So I know how to do content.

I know how to produce it. And I think it takes, I think like I said, a podcast could be a great way to help identify, what is your story? What are you sharing? And all of that, because you’re talking about it constantly. But I think the sweet spot of working with someone is probably they already know kind of their avatar, if you want to call it that, but who do they want to work with?

they know what service is. Is making them some money and maybe they want, they know how a podcast could layer into that to reach more people that are like the people that they love to work with. And they know a little bit about a nugget of their message that they want to turn into a show. They could have had a show for a little while.

I’ve worked on shows that were already in existence or that have pod faded. That’s a fancy term amongst us podcasters, which is they’ve kind of stopped recording and stuff, putting out new episodes for whatever reason. but I think a little bit of that knowledge of what you’re doing, who you serve and why you want to do it.

And what lights you up about it is really helpful. before you kind of jump in with a producer. 

Tami: I of course love every minute of that, because part of the reason why I started my show is because I was like, you know what? I’m having the same conversations over and over with potential clients first time clients.

And I was like, you know what? I feel like. If I told people all the things I’m telling everyone now, then they could be like, Oh, that’s what you’re talking about. And then take it to a deeper level. And I have found that is to be, that is true. That people are like, Oh, now I know you’re talking about because you know, people could be like, I don’t really know what self care is, or I only think it’s this one thing.

So tell me a little bit about your show that you do. It’s like you’re on season six. Tell us a little bit about your actual podcast, where I was a guest and I will link to our show that we did together in the show notes here. 

Paula: Yes, it was so much fun having you on. so jumpstart, your joy started in 2015 when I was actually in life coach training.

And so you’ll now hear that what I did is not what I just told you. The answer was the last question, but, so jumpstart, your joy started when I was looking for something to create. When I was considering a marketing arm for what I thought would be a brand new coaching. business that I was starting and joy kind of stood out to me for a lot of reasons.

I mean, I’m the person that when I was a little kid, people would say, what do you want to do when you grow up? I would literally say happy. I, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I’d say, happy, they look at me like you’re doing that wrong. that’s not even an answer to this question.

Tami: I see you. I want it to be peaceful, but go ahead. 

Paula: Yeah, peaceful. It’s a good answer too. Yeah. And so I think that’s a natural thing that bubbles up through me, like I’m just wired as a happy person or somebody that seeks it out. And I’m in Tony 10, I had my son and had a very long labor and was diagnosed with PTSD and really sense that I couldn’t find my way back to that core nugget of a person that I knew existed.

And so that’s where I feel like joy was calling to me. I mean, that’s my look back version of it, but. And that I had to find my way back to whoever I had been both for myself. Cause I missed her and for this new baby that I was like, he deserves the money that I’m meant to be. And I don’t know where she went.

And so that joy piece kind of stayed with me. And then, so then five years later is when I had decided I can’t do corporate America anymore. I really like coaching people. and maybe this is the thing and it’s always been a journey. of what do I love? And what’s drawing me forced. You know, so looking at coaching was great, but then it led me to the next thing.

And it was, it’s interesting to see that. So when I started my show about joy people ask, I mean, it hit new and noteworthy. It did a bunch of, you know, the things that shows do and people are like, how do you do that? And I was like, you know, I have this background in production from advertising. I have this.

Coaching skillset. I love doing podcasting. That was kind of a surprise, but maybe not really. And I was like, well, I could teach you. So that’s where my first class came from and out of that class, a client. And so it all just kind of built organically. And so my show is about joy and people finding joy every day.

And how do you find joy in hard times and improbable situations? And season six is all about finding joy in the messy middle, because that’s what we’re in. We’re like in this weird place, we don’t know really, it doesn’t look anything anymore. Like it did the world, like it did in November of 2019.

It’s really hard to see where this thing ends and how we’ll all be at the end of it. And so how do we find joy now? Because it’s still important. And so that’s what the show is about. I’m 

Tami: very much looking forward to season six. we are 100% in the messy middle, and before I hit the record button, you know, we were doing a little check in, we haven’t spoken since, early summer.

And, yeah, I’m looking forward to get some more tips on how to get comfortable in that messy middle. Yeah. yeah. It’s a weird place, for sure. Yeah. If you have to sum up in one sentence, how you work with people. So people are thinking, okay, I gotta get me some more Paula. how can people, further their relationship with you other than listening to your show?

Paula: Well, I mean, I take on clients. So if you have a podcast I’d love to work with you. If you’re a heart centered disruptor, I work with podcasters who, you know, want to further their craft and find a way to do it. And I also do pick up a couple of coaching clients, at a time I like to keep it small. So that’s the other way is you can find me a jumpstart, your joy and.

Reach out there. 

Tami: Sounds good. Okay. So Paula had the self care affect your work both as a podcast producer, business owner and life coach 

Paula: and mom. Yeah, it’s a mindful approach. I mean, it’s, I think self care is hard and sometimes it’s also very pragmatic. So I think really tuning into the spaces that feel hard and then looking for a solution for them is.

Kind of the pocket answer I’ve got for, what do I do for self care? And so, in some cases it looks like I bought a folding screen that goes around my desk because I was tired of my family staring at me. Yes. And the kitchen. So that gives me a little bit of privacy. I feel like that’s self care, I’ve got to get my work done.

and I think it’s saying yes to the little things that either bring more joy to your life or that make you feel, I don’t know better about your day, better about yourself. And so that’s what I try and do is just make it easier for me to do the work that I do. And also easier for the people around me, especially in this kind of bizarre, messy middle situation, you know, how do we get the stuff done?

and how do we still, you know, have a good day, not feel really frustrated all the time. 

Tami: So what are some of your little joy? 

Paula: well, I love. Hanging out with my dog. He’s a small Chihuahua. I also really love taking a walk. I have to say that you did something. I think in a show when the pandemic hit or Instagram about how really reconnecting with your body helps.

And I found that to be so true and I appreciated that nudge back to walking. And noticing the things around me when I walk, just really taking it in and letting it be an experience, even if I’m not going that far from my home. I think also taking really mindful breaks. I’ve gotten back to world of Warcraft, the video game and found that to be joyful.

I really like playing games. I really like the escape of it. And I think allowing myself to do that, it feels like some tiny self care of yeah, go do something that isn’t work. Yeah. And then taking time to just go outside because it’s easy to get stuck here at a desk. And I really like being outside and that’s, you know, literally three feet from me right here.

Tami: So, no, I hear you. It’s funny. I’ve been talking with a bunch of my clients about the hearts stops around work because so many people are working at home for the first time. They don’t they’re like, but it’s right there, but I could be working. But remember I took that time to Eat a long lunch with my kid.

And so therefore I have to make up every single moment, quote, makeup, all that work time. I’m like sorta where you could just, you know, give yourself some hard boundaries. And because I feel like when we can work any time we work all the time. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: And then if you give yourself a hard stop and I love that, you’re like I’m going to play video games as part of my joy I’ve been doing, And I need to get back to it, but one of my favorite musical artists, Rhett, Miller love him.

I’m gonna try to get him on the podcast here. Now let’s put that out there. cause he also has a podcast I’m like we could, you know, I don’t necessarily need to be on your show, but you should come on mind. he has been doing, home concerts, like solo show as a basement. Since the second week of the pandemic, he does four shows a week, three to four shows a week on stage it.

So again, using technology in new ways to bring those little joys. yeah. 

Paula: Yeah. That’s so important. And I 

Tami: think go ahead. I was gonna say. 

Paula: And I think just looking back to it, like things that have brought me joy as a child, like we’re, we are rewatching all of little house on the Prairie and it is about to end and I don’t know what we do next, but it’s been a real joy just revisiting that and just sitting down with a family and all of us kind of laughing about things that I loved as a kid, you know, and Nelly Olson.

And like we have discussions about all the topics that they bring up. that’s been a lot of fun too. 

Tami: I’m furiously writing notes as okay, well, how can I get more joy in my life? So thank you for that. And, we have been watching some mr. Rogers, like that’s on Amazon prime and you can get all the, like all the way back to the first episode.

And it’s kind of mesmerizing. Cause I don’t know if you remember this, but only one thing at a time happens on mr. Rogers. So it is like a full on meditative state through the entire episode. It’s wow, they’re just feeding the fish. He’s just taking his shoes off. He’s having one conversation. There’s not all this animation and dah going on.

It’s pretty fantastic. And we just dipped our toe. As a mom daughter watching experience into the great British baking bake off. 

Paula: Oh, so good. So, so good. So yeah, I love that 

Tami: show. Like we’re only on the F like Netflix has it and they’re doing collections, not seasons. So it’s. I anyway. So we don’t, we’re not just getting the whole experience, but what I am getting is, again, it’s a quiet show, so all the stuff, so it’s kind of grown up and kind of racy goes right over the top of my kid’s head.

yeah. Even the desserts are they’re familiar, but they’re not because we don’t know what they’re called. Like she kept going, why are they talking about sponges? I’m like, well, that’s what they call cake. Yeah. And she’s that’s. And when they did biscuits and she was like, why are they calling biscuits crackers?

I’m like, see, we’re doing some cross cultural things right now, but I find it to be really soothing. 

Paula: Yeah, little house on the Prairie has that same appeal. And there’s, I mean, there are a lot of dynamics in there of a bully and, you know, and they bring it, I mean, they brought up plagues and races and it’s been really interesting to watch it and see the lens with which people were looking at it, you know, in the.

Seventies and eighties, but then it brings up a discussion that the family can have, but it’s also a very simple, like you’re saying, and there’s not a lot of distraction and drama and, yeah, 

Tami: it’s 

Paula: a joy. 

Tami: Okay. I, I remember watching it as kid and loving it. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: And so revisiting that is now going to be on our, our, maybe that can be our winter show.

because I’m like, you guys, this isn’t going to be over anytime soon. So we might as well dig into, what’s got a lot of seasons that can be really soothing little house on the parade. It’s good. Yeah. I grew up in the seventies and I was a teenager in the eighties. And so the reason I bring that up is because I feel like self care.

What we learned about self care can vary depending on when and where we grew up and who we grew up with in our immediate families and what media we were, consuming. So what did you learn about self care growing up? 

Paula: Well, probably not a lot. I mean, be totally honest. 

Tami: I will say that’s mostly everyone’s answer like, 

Paula: yeah.

I mean, they’re 

Tami: talking about, 

Paula: was it talked about, I mean, I think the closest, this is so awful. I’m sorry, mom. I think the closest thing to it was something around I didn’t, I’m not a really big fan of math. And so there was that thing of do your math work first before you get over to English or reading or whatever.

And so you can get the thing out of the way. Maybe that’s a little bit of self care is take the thing, but yeah, it’s harder first. So you can get to the thing that you love. But yeah, it was a different time in a different place and maybe kids just don’t know. But I mean, I know my son knows about meditation and stuff probably cause I’ve told him, but yeah, it was a weird and I was the same time era.

I mean, time and era as you, you know, born 72. So teenager in the 

Tami: eighties. Yeah. it’s a funny thing. I think first inklings of any kind of self care talk was on Oprah at four o’clock every afternoon. Thank you very much. Yes. And I feel like Oprah really changed a lot of the latchkey kids because they, she changed the conversation around so many things.

Like she obviously grew up in a different era than we did, but what she did was that she. Took what she knew, what she grew up with made change and then shared it with us, 

Paula: right? Yeah, totally, 

Tami: man. 

Paula: I will 

Tami: be grateful to her for that. 

Paula: Yeah, there were so many, and I think she even called them aha. Moments of Oh, people are doing things differently.

People are talking about feelings and emotions. People are making choices that don’t keep them in a nine to five job, their entire, where, you know, 40 years in a career. And yeah, I totally agree. I remember also this is maybe not a Testament to over, but me being tired, but I would love to turn on Oprah and nap.

that was self care 

Tami: because 

Paula: she was so soothing. 

Tami: Well, I also think that napping as a tool of self care, I was also, as it’s napping is also a tool of resistance. Like guys, we can’t do like our bigger work in the world. If we’re dragging our half dead carcasses around, we’re so tired. So we’re all really tired.

We need to rest. In fact, about 10 years ago, I was in my yoga teacher training and. I was encouraged for the first time in my life to do less and to rest more. And I thought you’re nuts and it was really hard. And so I, but then I dedicated myself to resting until I wasn’t tired anymore. And it took five years of actively, like what can I do to help myself feel more rested?

It took five years, and then I spent five years relatively rested. Which was weird. Cause I had a little kid then and I was like, how are you rested? I’m like, I literally go to bed when she goes to bed. That’s how I’m doing it. and you know, sleep being the foundation of what I feel like is my sanity. I still really, prioritize it.

It is so unsexy, but man, rest, I feel like is the unsung hero of self care. 

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. There’s something else that popped up for you when you were saying that is, I remember also in college, I went to UC Santa Barbara and so the beach was literally right there. One of the reasons I chose this school, and.

I would. So my last quarter, I had gone crazy already and taken everything I needed to take. So I had a bunch of electives I just decided to take, cause I wanted to say, I would literally go to the beach and read, but that was like to read all of my stuff for all the classes. But that was like exquisite self care.

And the thing that I knew at that time was, I don’t know when I’m going to live like. Five minutes from a beach ever again in my entire life. And so I made it a point of every day going there and soaking it up and knowing this is it. I’m never going to be this age again. I’m never going to leave.

I’m like, I am going to just enjoy the hell out of this. So I don’t know where that just came from, but it really was. I think that was an active early, like just immersive self care. And it was, 

Tami: I’m so applauding that I spent. So much of my high school career after I got my driver’s license, cutting school and driving to the beach and doing what yes.

Reading, literally one of my favorite things like of all time ever in the history of the world, I liked when pamper and the good old days when we had to get on an airplane to go places. One of the things that I love to do when I travel with two things, this is very telling. I like to go to cafes and other countries and read what I like to go to the grocery store and see if I can pick out which products are, which based on the, How things look like you’re all.

Oh, this is what Colgate toothpaste looks like with Ty lettering. Interesting. I just don’t know what this is. Then you pick up something next door and you’re like, I have no idea what this is. It must be toothpaste because they’re next to each other. Don’t know what it is. And anytime I can get on an airplane and go somewhere with a beach, I will be there with a water bottle and tons of books.

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Actually it’s even thinking about it relaxes me right now. Okay. So everybody, if you have any sort of beach nearby and mine, it doesn’t have to be the ocean basically near water with a book. Yeah, I’m good. The Pacific ocean is best. However, I don’t let the best get in the way of good enough.

Which is putting my feet in a kitty pool in my backyard with a book works. Okay. So how do you practice self care now that you’re a grownup, 

Paula: it’s also a challenge. but I think. I do love a good nap. And that was something that I did not like as a kid. So that maybe that was also another early example.

My dad avid napper. And would, they would tell us you got to go take quiet rest time, which I think actually equated to mom and dad need a moment to just de stress, do their own thing. So please be quiet. But I think I love a good nap. I like to have a novel. so I’m reading, I know you’re going to ask some other questions, but city of girls, which is just like juicy and good that’s Liz Gilbert right now.

the walk, the walking is good because I need to get out of my house and out of my head and that just. That helps. and I think there’s something I was thinking about this today is there’s something about also allowing myself some small extravagances or some bigger ones. I think there was something about, There was some story back in the past about, you know, you don’t want too much or don’t do too many lavish things.

And, and so I think I haven’t said yes to things that I’ve, that would bring me a lot of joy. And so like last year, an example of that was. We got a passholder for the family or a passes for Disneyland. So we’re annual pass of course, lower tier ever for this. But yeah, it meant that like last November we just had the past dozen, we were like, let’s go see the Christmas Decorah.

And I had never seen Disneyland at Christmas time. What a joy like, Oh my gosh. And to see how they would swap out haunted mansion and. Small world. Like it was just exquisite and I, it was really, I mean, so that was self care. It’s letting myself have that thing that I knew would bring me joy, even though there was some story in there that it was too expensive or that’s silly, or like whatever.

I was like, hell with that, we’re just doing it. So, yeah, so I’m really sad that’s closed for many races, but. I think those are some good examples of just kind of, and leading into that space of where this feels amazing. And why am I saying no to it? Like kind of questioning those things? I don’t know all of them right now, but yeah, 

Tami: I think that’s a perfect example because I, again, like we’re surrounded with this idea of you should definitely want more to be better, but it’s for the sake of that, but there’s very little.

A time where people go, but what are the, what is it about that thing that like really scratches the itch for you? And I love that you use the word exquisite when describing your Disney experience. 

Paula: yeah, so 

Tami: now, but I do have to ask that seems like a big luxury extravagance because Disney is not inexpensive.

What are some spring ball things? 

Paula: Small. I love that you asked this. Can I share another little thing about this too? Is that so even in a recent podcast episode, cause yeah, I realized that is extravagant. I also realized that those things are not available to us in that way. right now, right?

so it brought me to this thing about how do we get drawn to these things? And Disneyland is one of them and I can love it. And it is also a version of a bed in a bag version of joy, which means it comes it’s pre-packaged it’s. Like really digestible. It’s like the bed in a bag, you get a target where you’re like, Oh, here’s everything I need for a beautiful bedroom.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. But like, how do we, and I think the heart of what you asked right there is the very thing that I love about this realization is that there are values and things that are involved like that. That are part of the Disneyland experience. And that’s why it’s exquisite and probably for all of us, I mean, in some way or another, but there’s then now that we’re in shelter and place still, for many of us are quarantining or we can’t go to a movie or whatever.

what are the things about that experience that loved and could not get enough of? And that felt, I mean, in any, you know, in this case, maybe like self care or self-indulgence. That you can take out. And I think some of it was for me, I can eat anything I want because I’m Celia celiac, gluten free.

So they are really good at that. It Disneyland and it diluted gets me to no end feeling like immensely weird for is part of it. Like they, they go the extra mile. I like to be seen and heard and, you know, Hampered and, you know, maybe the nuance of feeling like everything is a possibility here.

Like I could do anything. So those are the things that I think taking out of whether it is, you know, that it is an expensive extravagance. So what are those things that you could do every day? And I feel like for me, I’ve been. kind of each month over the shelter in place, I’ve been like kind of looking on Etsy or Amazon or some other shopping and thinking, Oh, what’s there.

What is the tiny little goodie that I could get myself once I get past, you know, sending out all my invoices in the month. 

Tami: So 

Paula: that seems like a little, like little. Delight, but gives me as much joy, probably as Disney van, you know, some like beautiful masks or a new, tiny purse, because I’m tired of carrying my big purse and putting it in the target cart and thinking, Ooh, what else is on?

So I have a little over the shoulder. Yeah. Purse that, you know, it’s like a crossbody bag that I was like, Oh, that’s just so good. And I. I know, it’s just like letting myself have those little things, instead of feeling like I have to hunker down and use the old purse. Cause it’s a good thing, but no, let myself have those little things and I think.

The other example would be, I mean, even this little screen behind me for a while, I, this is awesome. I had this really gross, ugly, this, the box that our refrigerator came in eight years ago. Why do I still have it? Evidently, because I knew there was a pandemic coming eight years later and I would want to put something behind me in my kitchen so I could have a cubicle.

Who knew I’d want to go back to that either, but like allowing myself to say that things gross and dirty and like, why am I allowing that in the kitchen and buying a beautiful screen, that was a hundred dollars from target. And letting that be the thing that separates my little tiny office air quotes, between, you know, my desk and what is the kitchen sink literally behind me, I didn’t want to have to clean that up every day.

So. That’s a little bit of self care. I don’t have to clean up my sink. I know nobody can see behind me. It feels a little bit like luxurious, but so those are some things that are not of the pick level of a Disneyland annual pass, but like, how do you find the thing, things that feel really good and let yourself have them as maybe the question.

Tami: I love every single bit of it. I, so in my yoga teacher training, I S I specialized, I did graduate level work. No, I didn’t. I just did extra study on restorative yoga, which is the, I call it the laying down part at the end, but for the whole class. And the idea is that you get your body so comfortable that you’re, that you can release all of.

Your tension. So instead of holding your arm up, you put a blanket under there instead of, holding your head in a certain position, you tuck a block under there. So it’s the idea of getting as comfortable as humanly possible. And I always referred to it as dig into your inner princess and the pea.

Yeah. Like that is going to get you further. So Further than anything else, because I don’t know what is going to scratch your comfort itch, or what’s going to delight you, but how can we dig into those experiences for ourselves and say, what would make this easier? What would make this more delightful and to not make it like, and it has to go from.

A broken down refrigerator box from eight years ago to the perfect thing, but what can get you 3% more comfortable? What can get you 3% more? Beautiful. 

Paula: Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. there’s a lot of synergy between those two and if it’s, I mean, and it doesn’t have to be expensive, it doesn’t, I would even be a creative project that like brings out joy and is self care in its own way that maybe there’s a different way to solve a problem that doesn’t involve any money.

Just a little bit of time. 

Tami: Yeah, I was going to, I have been, I bought, a little jar of acrylic paint and I’m taking all of these old frames and I’m changing them from like plain wood and I’m just painting them with black acrylic paint. And at first I was like, Oh, but is it the right paint? Is it right?

This? And I’m like, you hate this thing as it is right this second, just paint it with whatever little like elementary school paint you have and just let it be good enough. Cause you were about to throw that thing away. So just paint it and see, do you like it better? It’s like the idea of I hate this shirt.

I have to keep it in perfect position or perfect condition, or just take your scissors to the shirt and see what happens. What would happen if I made this sleeve shorter? What would happen if I cut the neck out of that? T-shirt where that, that neckline itches, and you could be like, well, I have a bunch of rags or you could be like, Oh my God, I just customize my entire wardrobe with a pair of scissors.

Oh, let’s all take that little bit okay. Of time. And, you know, and try to make things work. Just a little bit better, but in it’s not because it’s for other people, it’s because we’re worth that extra little bit of effort. 

Paula: Yes. Amen. Right there. Yes. And that’s the joy in the messy middle, like the cutting up of your t-shirt, even if it doesn’t work out perfectly like there’s joy right there in that moment.

And we all need a little bit more of that right now. that’s. That’s part of what’s missing and we feel so stuck. And so I got to keep this cardboard box behind me because it’s the only thing, there was some real thinking going on behind my cardboard box cubicle, that was like, really, like I had gotten in it, I, it was like in the world thinking or something, and I had to call myself out on that BS. Cause it’s no, I can do better than a cardboard box right here. Right? 

Tami: what brought 


Paula: to this is the answer. This is the horrible answer I’m going to have to accept. 

Tami: and living through a pandemic is hard enough.

Yes. So can we make our lives easier? Just 3% easier today. What would make our lives 3% easier? Would it be to when you get your grocery order, just cut up the vegetables now and put them in glass jars that you have in the refrigerator so that when you open the refrigerator, you’re like, Oh, I have a rainbow of things.

I already prepped because past me wanted future me to make sure we’re not throwing those vegetables away. We’re actually eating them. 

Paula: Yes. 

Tami: I love it. When past 

Paula: me remembers future me, like that is one of the best joys. Oh, I’m so glad you said that. Right? 

Tami: Cause remember is kind of lazy. She can be kind of surly, but if I catch her for I’m like, come on, present me 15 minutes is going to take care of future you in such a way that you actually feel loved and cared for.

Paula: Yes. Oh, there was a boat. Oh, this one just hit me too. Like back before I had my son. So this is 10 years ago. I remember I was sorting out my, my shirts and my wardrobe. Cause I was like this. Okay. Here’s a package of things that will fit great. Once I had my kid and I put a little love note in there to myself for God, I did it, opened it up and I was in the midst of it.

I’d had a horrible time, right? you know, way long labor. PTSD at this point and I 


Tami: this thing up and it says these,

I lost you.

Oh, I 

Paula: do more of that. Cause it’s exquisite again, when it happens. So thank you for taking me back there. that was a really good little moment. 

Tami: Oh my God. I totally lost, I didn’t hear a single word of that. All I heard was that you had a note and that’s it. 

Paula: Do you need me to resay it? 

Tami: Yes. Hold on.

Yes I do. That was so weird. 

Paula: That is weird. Okay. When you’re ready, you can 

Tami: still hear me. 

Paula: Yes. Okay. Okay. So that just took me back to this place where, kind of that idea of past me doing something for future me, where back when I was about to have my son, I was sorting out my wardrobe in my clothes. So, you know, and I was thinking, Oh, I’ll put these things aside.

Cause they’ll fit well after I’m back from the hospital. And I put a little note in there for myself that was like, Hey, these things will fit. And I, and in it, I wrote not alone. And I love you. To my future self. I didn’t remember that I had even done it. And so when I get back from the hospital, I’m really not.

I’m all out of sorts. I, you know, can’t deal with anything. And I open this thing up and I have a love note from my past self that I didn’t remember writing. And I just, I lost it. 

Tami: Like I was just 

Paula: sitting there crying, thinking. this is the most exquisite act of self love I have ever heard of. And he don’t remember 

Tami: doing it and it’s so beautiful.

Paula: And how could I do more of it? Because this is amazing. So thank you for opening the door on that. What I had not thought about it in a little while. 

Tami: I am so happy to hear that. And I love this idea of present self taking care of future self, because. Man. It really is. It’s it just demonstrates over and over to yourself that you’re like, somebody loves me and that’s somebody me.

And I know I sounded very Stuart Smalley, like super new AGI Rowley when I said that, but I’m just going to say, try it. It feels really good. 

Paula: Yeah. Well, and it’s such a surprise. You’re like, Oh my God. Cause I still have that note and I get it out. Sometimes I’ll be like, Oh, that was a good one way to go past Paula.

That was a good one. Well play. 

Tami: And I would encourage everyone. Who’s made it this far. What could you do today to help? Next week you, what could you do today to help five years from now? You? So, one of the things I do for 80 year old me, cause I just turned 50 this year. One of the things I do for 80 year old me is I do my physical therapy exercises, which are super boring.

And I walk, I try to walk every day and it’s not because I’m like, you know, I’m going to change the size and shape of my butt. I’m going to look like I’m 25. And my jeans now 50 year old me is trying to look down way down that line at 80 year old me who wants to be able to still walk and to be strong and flux.

Yeah. I want to be friends with her. 

Paula: Me too. 

Tami: Right. So how did you take care? Our senior citizens sells, like if you were going to everyone, here’s a little exercise for you. Sit down and grab a piece of paper. And in your mind, think of yourself as 75 or 80 years old and check that person out, conjure up in your mind.

And who is she and what is she doing and how is she in the world? And then take care of her. 

Paula: Yes, 

Tami: take care of it. Take care of our senior citizens. Okay, Paula, currently we’re living in a pandemic. So how is your self care going well? And what areas do you think could use a little more attention? 

Paula: Going well, I do walking. If you like snuggling the puppy. I do taking time to play world of Warcraft. I do like that. I also let myself for the podcast for next season, like settle into something. And I don’t mean settle in, like I’m settling for, but like really get into it a topic. It feels a little scary, but also this is so right now I can’t resist it.

So those feel like, self care also buying several two packs of very comfortable shorts from Costco that are not sexy, but very comfortable also felt like great self care. the other thing about not going so well is I need to sleep more. I need to be, or I would like to be, I guess, more gracious with everyone around me because I, you know, I’m catching myself in that space of, I think even on, I’m sorry, I’m Bernay Brown’s podcast in the last couple of weeks, she talked about how people are at surge capacity.

We have none left, like we’re at it. You know, we don’t have any room. And so I think reminding myself to be cognizant of the fact that I’m not the only one that’s been in it for seven months, we’ve all been in it. We all need a little more grace. And I think learning to extend it, that to everyone is a place that I would like to be, because I want to feel better about myself and about everybody around me.

So I think that’s it. I 

Tami: have all praise hands for that. And if you guys haven’t caught that episode of surge capacity with Bernay Brown, please do her next show. Or a couple of shows later. She talks about the book burnout. my friend Gina has a podcast called swollen. She’s a therapist. She talks about surge capacity.

I’ve been talking about surge capacity with all of my clients. Yeah. And hell yes. The more grace that we think of each other. During this really hard time in this, I know everyone’s like stop saying unprecedented time and stopped saying new normal. I’m like, well, you want to call it purple? Okay. In this new purple we are all really tired guys.

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: And I hear you on the sleep and I will tell you, I spend all day figuring out what will help me. I feel rested and I have a whole routine, and I will tell you this, Paula, you probably already know this, but you know, that bedtime starts the moment you get out of bed in the morning, it does not start in the evening.

That’s the other thing I’m like, Oh, what do I need to do to be tired enough, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically to actually surrender, to sleep every day. Whew. 

Paula: That’s a great question. 

Tami: It’s a list, right? That is a question. And I actually, that was one of the exercises. I, again, I have a class called feel rested fall.

If you want to feel rested, like we might have to do some unsexy stuff. 

Paula: You have 

Tami: to do what we have to do to feel the way we want to feel. We have to be like, sleep is such as surrender state. We have to be tired and. Able to let go enough to actually make 

Paula: it happen. Yeah. And I think there’s so many distractions right now that it’s easy for the monkey mind or whatever, to just be racing all the time.

Tami: So what speaking of morning, what is your morning routine or do you have one and has it changed in the pandemic? 

Paula: Yeah, it has. I used to really enjoy. Getting up showering, having a cup of coffee, and easing into a day. And now with everyone home that doesn’t always happen or rarely happens. And so it’s often the cup of coffee and then kind of sitting down to read my own emails from people.

I mean, whether that be clients or personal. Kind of get a lay of the land. I try not to immerse too heavily in the news cycle, but I do like to check in because somehow that does kind of settle me. I’m not like, Ooh, I wonder what happened. let’s just rip off the bandaid and see what happened. and then spending a little time with planning out the day.

It helps me get a roadmap. I have. You know, I do that Sundays as well, so I know what I’m doing in the week, but also charting out what the day is going to look like, I think is, it sounds very pragmatic, but that feels like some self care and some sort of a routine. 

Tami: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. Because, you know, I spent a lot of time talking about routines with people.

And one of the things that people have, I’ve noticed a lot of people have noticed it, that they are needing since we’re all home together, they’re needing. Space before they give to other people. So a lot of my clients are doing the thing that they is completely unspeakable people. Like I cannot get up earlier than my children.

And I’m like, okay, that’s fine. But can you try it? What happens? let’s not shut that door on that possibility before you even try it. And everyone who tries it’s okay. I never thought this would work ever in a million years, but when I get up and I give myself. That quiet hour with my coffee and maybe 10 minutes of meditation.

I’m like, Oh my God, I can handle one of my children, show me their faces. Cause it doesn’t feel like one day is bleeding into the next. I feel like I had that moment where I’m like, look at me being a grownup here with my coffee by myself. Like I have a friend who redesigned her bedroom and she put a coffee maker in like on her nightstand.

Oh, and she has coffee in her bed. Like she’s at a hotel. That’s 

Paula: amazing. 

Tami: Right. 

Paula: I really 

Tami: like that idea where you’re like, wait, we can do that. Yes, you can. we can do all the things. 

Paula: I really liked that idea about if you wish you could be at a hotel, how could you make your bedroom have those qualities?

Tami: Yeah, not the bed in the 

Paula: bag version of Dewey folks, 

Tami: right? Splash out for the blackout curtains or splash out for the noisemaker or the white noise maker or one of my pro tips is the Don simulating alarm clock instead of a noise, because we’re going into fall where it’s actually dark in the morning.

And so I have a sunrise alarm clock. It constantly changed my relationship to morning. 

Paula: I like that. Or I have to think on that one. 

Tami: So what do you, what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online? 

Paula: I don’t know what else I want people to know about me. I mean, 

Tami: it’s 

Paula: such a treat to get to talk about joy and I am so delighted that I’ve gotten to do this work for six years.

I mean, I think maybe one of the things would be like, don’t give up on what you feel calling to you and give it enough time to let it unpack itself in a way, because I would never have guessed when I started on the journey that this. This life that I have right now would be where I was headed or that it would be the thing that feels so right.

And I think there’s a piece of self care and whatnot in there is let it unfold and see where it goes. I call it well-planned loosely held, but Let it unfold for you. Don’t clean to what you think it should be. and if somebody would define me, I met jumpstart, your joy.com. and that’s my social handle, most places except for where it’s too long.

And then it’s jumpstart joy on Pinterest and Twitter. but yeah, I’d love to connect and talk about joy or self care or podcasting with people. and I do have a free. Podcasting a mission statement class that I run or that people can take as a challenge, but basically it lays the foundation of what were you, what if you want to start a show, what would it be about and what would you talk about?

and I think I’ve gotten great feedback on it. it’s project plan basically, which is as a project manager and heart, yeah, I love doing that stuff. So. Well, 

Tami: I love, planning. Doesn’t come naturally to me. So I love when people give me a framework to work with. And can people find the, the challenge on your website?

Paula: Yeah. I’m sorry to join.com. 

Tami: Yeah. Awesome. Okay, Paula, thank you for that. Are you ready for the quick start questions? 

Paula: I am. I even did my homework. 

Tami: Okay. I’m excited. All right. What is your Enneagram? 

Paula: I am a two wing three. Is that how you say it? 

Tami: I do also, just so you know, if you want some specific, Enneagram self care, I have a Enneagram podcast series.

You can find that, it’s episodes 41 to 50 on the 100% guilt-free self-care podcast page. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? I’m an 

Paula: introvert. 

Tami: Oh my God. Me too. Do you know your Myers? Briggs? 

Paula: I’m an I N F J 

Tami: hi, happy unicorn. We’re the rarest vignette. So many of my guests are inf Jays. Yeah.

Okay. You already gave it away. You’re a rabble on Gretchen. Rubin’s four tendencies. 

Paula: I am I rechecked last night? Cause I was like, is that true? Or am I just making that up? And no, it hit again. So I am a rebel. 

Tami: I have to say my clients are usually rebels or obligers and I love them both so much. I can’t stand it.

I’m a questioner. But do you have a line? Do you 

Paula: find, I know that the inf day rebels are, they irritate themselves to no end. 

Tami: I will just go out and say rebels irritate themselves, but don’t worry because obligers feel bad that they can’t do anything. They have this story. Obligers tells this story.

I can’t do anything. I hit it. I’m like you actually do everything. It’s just for everyone else. Right. You’re so good at doing things for other people obligers. You don’t have any time to do things for yourself. So we’re just going to flip that script a little bit. And so that’s their story. And then the rebel story is Oh my God, can you believe, blah, blah, blah.

I’m like, again, once you learn how to deal with a rebel, they are on fricking stoppable. I love them so much. 

Paula: Yeah, well, and I think I know we’re in a speed round, but, I’m a rebel, so, 

Tami: yeah, please. Sorry. 

Paula: I think the key for me and my rebel illness has been, if I can find something that ties me back to love, and that might sound really weird, but that either things that I love, people that I love, or I don’t know.

Causes I love, then I can make a thing happen. I don’t have to have another external, internal whatever reason, but I love my show so much. I’ve never missed a week, you know, 

Tami: there’s something 

Paula: that’s the key, at least for me. Well, but the, yeah, the key for their 

Tami: rebel is they it’s an identification.

So what I’m hearing you say is I’ve decided I’m a weekly podcaster and then you put a period at the end of that sentence. Yes. And then guess what? You’re a weekly podcaster. Cause that’s what you decided. 

Paula: Yes. 

Tami: It’s but before the decision is made though, that’s where it’s 

Paula: tricky. Yeah. And 

Tami: it’s tricky because you’re spending all that time going like you can’t boss me around.

I can’t either. And it’s okay, I’m not bossing you around. I’m waiting for you to decide what you want to do. So my best friend in the whole world is a rebel. I have known her. We’ve been friends since I was in sixth grade. And I just found out about this framework a few years ago. But what I’ve always known about her is I, if I try to boss her around.

I get nowhere though, a couple of years ago, she called me at the beginning of the year and she said these words and I was like, damn girl, I can’t wait for it. She said, I’ve decided I’m going to be a better steward of my money. And I was like, whew, tell me the ways that you are going to command this action.

And she has gone into like super overdrive, meet with a new financial advisor, get all of her. savings done, get all of her retirement on track tracking, spending like budgeting in a way that I’m like, you know how to do that. And she’s I have an MBA and I’m like, shit, I forgot. it’s like why you have tools, but what, but she also using them because she hadn’t made that determination.

But once she decided to be a good steward, her words of her money, I was like, everybody watch out. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: Cause I would need to know what that even means. And rock on and hasn’t had any, reverberation or rebellion about it. She’s like I made the decision and here I go. It’s incredible. Okay. What is your love language?

Paula: Is it acts of doing whatever that one? Thank 

Tami: you. Yeah. 

Paula: Acts of service. Yes. 

Tami: Acts of service. Do you have, did it tell you that your secondary, 

Paula: I don’t remember what it was. Okay. I probably did. 

Tami: I have to tell you I’m an I, that acts of service is my secondary. I love it. My husband is his is acts of service.

I’m like, Oh, I just need to do the dishes. Oh, I just need to do this. I’m like, well, that was easy. yeah. Okay. Paula, what is the favorite last book that you read? 

Paula: Okay. Ballad of bird songs and snakes. It’s the hunger games. Like it’s the new one people and it just came out by Suzanne Collins. 

Tami: So it’s is it Suzanne?

Paula: Yeah. It’s it is by Suzanne Collins. 

Tami: Suzanne Collins. Yeah. Okay. I really I’ve sped through those. So that’s the newest one. You say 

Paula: it is. It’s the newest and it’s, I think. It’s 65 or 75, 65 years ahead of before where we met Katniss. So she’s not in it. I don’t want to give any other spoilers, but it is good.

Tami: Oh, of course. It’s good. Those things where I was like, Oh, I get why people want to read these, what’s your favorite book of all time? 

Paula: Yeah, that’s so hard. It’s it might be the little house on the Prairie series. I also really loved. The red tent by Anita DMR, which is a revisioning of yeah. Of biblical Hebrew and Oh, so good.

It just retells the story. Yeah. of women basically, I think in the old Testament, which is, yeah, 

Tami: I resisted it. Yeah. Be like hardcore. I really resisted it. And then I read it and I was like, I have got to stop doing that. I also resisted Harry Potter and I know that JK Rowling has lost her fucking mind.

That’s not here nor there. I resisted Harry Potter. Cause I was, I got too many people like this and that I read it and I was like, I’m that jerk again? Who is resisting what everyone likes. Cause it’s good. Okay. So that’s why I jumped in to the hunger games faster. Cause I was like lots of people like these, let me see.

And I was like, yep. I see why people like these. All right. Paula. What’s your favorite personal development book? 

Paula: I really loved. It’s a tossup. Bernay Brown rising strong, or the wilderness book, which I think we’re back to each other. Those 

Tami: are the wilderness, 

Paula: the yes. Posts, so good. 

Tami: Okay. All heart I emoji is about that.

yeah. Bernay Brown is I’m so glad we get to talk about her again in this episode, because she is, yeah. She’s my secret girlfriend. I love her so much. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll just say when people are like, which Bray Brown book should I read? I’m like, well, what’s alien. Yeah. Cause I’ll give you a specific order.

They don’t need to be read in order, but I need to know what is on your mind today. And then I will tell you which one you should read today and then come back when you’re done. All right, Paula, where do you like to hang out online? Where is your favorite social media channel? 

Paula: It’s probably Instagram, although I’m, I have a little bit of an obsession with Twitter where I don’t actually like to tweet, 

Tami: but I love to 

Paula: for seeing what’s going on in the world.

So I think for being a person on social media, Instagram for stocking trending topics, Twitter, 

Tami: I. I it’s I’m talking to myself. I spent so much time. I don’t, I hardly ever tweet, but I’ll tell you what I am on there several times a day. Cause I’m like, what are all the cool kids who know hella shit doing?

What are they talking about? Got it. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. And sometimes 

Paula: it’s just conspiracy stuff, which is humorous to me. I love a good conspiracy theory, but it’s also like sometimes they get news. That’s amazing. And then two days later, you actually see it in the news and I’m like, yeah, I already knew it’s on 

Tami: Twitter.

Well, that’s exactly. that is what I love. Cause it also, if you’re following, I follow a lot of 

Paula: journalists 

Tami: on Twitter. So I’m like, now I know what’s happening because they’re talking to each other. I feel like I’ve been a very smart person’s cocktail party where I’m almost afraid to open my mouth because I’m like, what am I going to say to this?

Adding to this conversation. I’ll just be over here, listening and learning. 

Paula: That seems very inf J cause I feel 

Tami: it. So like I’m willing to be a little bit like, no ha look at me over here on Instagram, but on Twitter, I’m super quiet. I’ll retweet like nobody’s business. Yeah, 

Paula: that’s fine. 

Tami: Alright. Past present, future.

Speaking of which, what is your favorite TV show? 

Paula: Is that three separate or just 

Tami: all in however you want to take this question, 

Paula: people are going to be surprised if there’s, if they’re hearing listening and they heard me talk about little house on the parrot. My favorite show is probably actually Battlestar Galactica.

Tami: Okay. I’m literally like what is even happening? Didn’t see that. Well, okay. Now I have to ask, what era was that and what did you love about it? 

Paula: One. So the one that was maybe 10 years ago, I love it. I loved how they told a story and. And there was, so I love a good dystopian tale and I love a good apocalyptic tale.

So there’s kind of both of those, wrapped into one good story. And they really kept the, who are the Cylons question? Cause we knew there were 12 models, but they kept it going and kept the clue. Like kind of mass singer style, like the clues were there, but you couldn’t really figure it out of who the Cylons were.

Even though we knew they were in the cast, we didn’t know. and I think it was also the, at the time when I was watching it, so I watched it as it was being released. And I’ve also since rewatched it probably a couple of times, but like having a group of friends that wanted to talk about it was also super exciting.

And there was some really great strong, like I love the turn Starbuck from a man to a woman. and then let her play a really strong role throughout. I thought that was super smart and fun. yeah. And there’s just some really good character development. general mom, Admiral Adama was great and the president was so much fun and such a real person.

I mean, she had cancer and then was like trying to lead people to a new thing. Like just brilliant writing and brilliant characters. 

Tami: Okay. I’m, this is what I’m thinking about this. When you said dystopian and all that, I was like, cool. I’m going to have to wait for the current. That’ll be like, when the pandemic’s over, perhaps I’ll dip my toe, but I’m like, I can’t take more stress, 

Paula: right?

Tami: that’s a little too close to home right now. I’m going to go ahead and watch some queer eye or something between now. And when we get things. handled with the pandemic. Alright, Paula, last question. The question I actually stole from inside the actor’s studio, I always want to know this about everyone, Paula Jenkins.

What is your favorite swear word? 

Paula: That’s a great question. So. If it’s a real swear word jackass. And I like to use, I like to humorously call people jackasses and I can’t really explain that, but then I also say balls a lot, just, that’s not really a swear word, but then I also made up Jack hole, which is like a mix up of jackass and asshole, I guess.

And I just say Jack hole and most people look at me like, what are you talking about? But it’s it’s pretty clean, but it’s kind of descriptive. 

Tami: I like how you think you’re like, I’m not going to have an explicit rating on every one of my shows and I’m like, I’m going there. I’m going to ask this question to make sure that I have an explicit rating.

So I don’t have to be like, do I check the box? Do I not check them off? 

Paula: Podcaster’s dilemma. Just say Jackal. 

Tami: But that would require such a level deep level of reprogramming my fuck filled mouth. Like I don’t think, but let’s see. I just made sure. We got one, Paula. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

I am so excited about your season six and finding some joy in the messy middle. Let’s definitely keep in touch and everybody, if I don’t talk to you between now and next week, this is your reminder that you matter tale. 

Paula: Thanks.


EP 068: Storytelling with Haley Everheart

EP 068: Storytelling with Haley Everheart

This week’s episode is all about storytelling and using video to tell those stories effectively with Haley Everheart.

I interviewed Haley, a queer femme CEO, content creator, and creative strategist based in Oakland, California this summer. She has been using the internet and digital storytelling tools to build community and create social change for more than 15 years. Haley’s company Everheart Creative helps small businesses and mission-driven progressive nonprofit organizations get their messages out into the world.

We talk about getting more comfortable on video, talking to the camera and sitting in the discomfort of being new at something. We talk about angles, lighting and wardrobe and how thankful we are that there are people who can help with all of it.

Haley is a mama who loves to tend to her garden, finding gratitude and joy in creating and sharing home work with partners and kids and has integrated self-care into all aspects of her daily work and home life.

We talk about working during our prime energy zone and the joy of research and a spreadsheet.


Tami: Good morning, Hailey. Good 

Hayley: morning. 

Tami: I’m so happy to have you here on the podcast friends. Haley’s a powerhouse. So I want to hear all about what she does. So let’s start here. Haley, who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Hayley: Well, thanks for having me. I am a professional storyteller. So what that means is I, craft stories and I help other people craft 

Tami: stories.

Hayley: And I realized about 10 years ago that I. You live in this day and age, which I do. and you want to tell stories that it’s best to at least learn how to use video. and so I became a filmmaker. So now I create videos for all sorts of clients, primarily mission driven companies and progressive nonprofits and organizations.

And I also help, movement folks, organizers, small business owners, et cetera, up there, DIY content game. 

Tami: I have to say. About a decade ago, I was doing a training. I was doing a training at a yoga teacher training. I have, I’m a yoga teacher and I was on the staff do. And one of the people said, Oh my God, you’re so funny.

You should do video. And I record in absolute horror. I was like, Oh my God, what are you talking about? He’s I think you’re like the next Renee Brown, which by the way, I have to bring up Renee Brown in every episode. So I just like to drop that there really fast. And I was like, she’s so fantastic.

That’s You just gave me the compliment of the highest order and Oh my God, I can’t think of anything I want to do less than be on video times have changed my friend. So I know a bunch of people just got super sweaty in their armpits. Can you, this is a, I did not prep this question, but can you tell us a little bit, like how do people become more comfortable getting on video?

For their business or for their life or for whatever message they’re sending. How do you help with people doing that part or you just do the video production part? 

Hayley: All of it. And I think that’s a great question. And I will say that growing up, I was a theater kid. I was in performance. And for a long time, I thought I only want to be in front of the camera.

I come from a long line of storytellers. My parents are also filmmakers and I said, I never want to be behind the camera. That’s boring. You know, I would want to be on camera. And then I grew up. And I realized that the person in front of the camera generally has the least power and that you have the most power when you’re behind in the camera.

And then I thought, Oh no, I want to be behind that camera. That being said, that has really changed in this current moment because. We can be both in front of the camera and in control of our own content, because most of us now have high definition, video cameras in our pockets, which is incredible. And I think video is such a powerful way to communicate with your audience no matter who you’re trying to serve, or, you know, what you’re trying to offer or sell.

And I think the biggest thing in being comfortable is just doing it. You know, 

Tami: just 

Hayley: trying it like the first time I, you know, I made my career, I was behind the camera and then my sister kept saying, you’ve got to do a YouTube series. You’ve gotta do a YouTube series. And I was like, I’m too old.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. and I don’t need to be on camera. And I like the first time I sat down to record the first, like 15 minutes of me recording were just me being like. I 

Tami: feel 

Hayley: really. Awkward. Okay. I feel awkward. Still be a little awkward talking to myself like, you know, so I think embracing the feeling of awkwardness and I have always been a firm believer that if something scares you, that’s like a good direction to go in, because it means that there’s like steaks there.

It means that there’s something important. and that means it’s interesting and worth. Doing, you know, so I think it’s like most things it’s not about Feeling totally comfortable. And it’s not about not being scared. It’s about just doing it anyway. And just sitting with your own discomfort and being like, I’m not going to wait until I feel comfortable.

I’m not going to wait until I feel fearless. Like that moment is never going to come. Like I’m going to feel weird. I’m going to be sort of embarrassed. I’m going to worry that no one cares about what I have to say and I’m going to do it anyway. 

Tami: And I have felt all of those, both video and starting a podcast.

I wanted to start a podcast. I don’t know, eight years ago I paused because I was like, but I don’t know the technology. And I now know that was a line of bullshit because, I can hire somebody to do the test. And then once I hired somebody to do the tech part, then I was like, Oh shit, I have a cork in my throat.

I can’t talk. And then I did this whole rigmarole and I actually worked with a coach. I call her my word excavator. I said, please ask me what I think about these things. And she’s I’ve heard you talk about these things for years. Of course you have something to say on the topic, but I was like, no, I need you to ask me and then can you write it down?

I’m going to cut up vegetables. Like I have to sneak up on myself to get my words out. So one of the things that super helped me was realizing that there is a, there’s a coach and a teacher for everything. So if you don’t like how you look on video, Work with somebody on your style, work with somebody on your angles, work with somebody on your lighting, work with experiment, go to YouTube.

I mean, talk about new to YouTube and buy new to YouTube. I mean, I didn’t realize like there was a video for everything, but there’s like how to, there’s a woman she’s like in her fifties and she’s I will teach older women how to look good on video. These are the things you need to look for.

And I was like, what a gift? You are person. I can’t remember your name, but it was like, wow, lighting super matters and angles super matter. Cause I’m telling you, we both like really good. We’re doing this on zoom. We can see each other’s faces, but I know you can’t see us, but we both look really good on zoom right now, but I also have a setup.

Like my camera is always lifted up. Like I noticed the background I got my face is in a window right now. And later this afternoon, I’ll sit on the other side of my desk. Cause the sun will be over here. Like it’s a thing, but boy, am I glad there are teachers and people who are professionals that are like, you can totally do this and you can look good and you can get your message out, but you might not do it by yourself.

How do you tell me about the people who you help tell their stories with their faces in their words? So how did, how do you work with people? So 

Hayley: I love everything you just said, and I think it’s all so true. and I think one of the things I think a lot about is that the tools have really been democratized, but not the skills as much.

Exactly what you’re saying. Like we might have access to the equipment and the editing, but we still might not know how to do it or how to do it well, but. Are so many good teachers out there. and when I work with clients, if I’m doing, you know, full service, video production, I mean, first of all, I approach every relationship.

Like I approach every relationship, I think, to a degree like there’s that period of mutual attraction, you know, whether that comes from a referral or someone coming to my website or me hearing about their project or event and us sort of taking a minute to get to know each other, What are you about?

Where’s the resonance, where’s the alignment and feeling into what that relationship might be, what each of our needs are, you know, in the relationship like, okay, you know, this might be as basic as like this company needs this mission video or, Oh, this nonprofit has. Fundraising event and they need to, you know, raise a lot of money and how can I help them tell their story and really thinking about, you know, what are the needs?

And is there that sort of like mutual alignment that we feel like we can work together in a great way. And then I really spend a lot of time getting to no, my clients. story and their needs, you know, let’s hear about you, who are you speaking to? Who is your audience? You know, if you’re selling something like what happens when people buy?

what happens when people don’t buy? what’s going on? They’re like, these are the things that I want to address and the stories that we’re telling for you, you know, who, what lights you up, you know, and how can we take I’m often working with Big thinkers and visionaries. And like, how can we take this big mission that you have and distill it down into something that’s going to be 90 seconds or three minutes, and is going to resonate with your key audience and also people who are maybe newer to you.

So like how can we be communicating on these multiple levels, to be really strategic and then, you know, moving into the filming. Now it’s a lot of virtual filming. Before it was in person, but it’s sort of the same. It’s like doing interviews, making people like a huge part of my job is just making people feel comfortable on camera.

Like it’s funny. It would 

Tami: be a huge part of my job is just making people feel comfortable. 

Hayley: And, you know, I really, identify with like my caretaking and my femininity in that way. I enjoy the emotional labor of my business. I mean, I want to get paid for it, so get me wrong. But but I love it.

I really delight in that feeling of being able to sit with someone and I think. As you well know, I don’t have to tell you this in your job, but like listening to someone else is such a gift. Like being able to be present with someone else’s experience and everyone that I believe that at least everyone is like more interesting.

The more you get to know them, like there’s no one that I can’t like connect with and just deepen and learn about. And so being able to have that experience of like deeply listening to people and then. Sort of, I see my work as responding to the information they’re giving me. So like taking the core points and then showing it back to them in a way that shines a spotlight and really lights them up.

So they get to see it. And they kind of the experiences like, Oh my gosh, like 

Tami: I am, or we 

Hayley: are doing this amazing work in the world. and now we get to do more of it. that’s kind of the experience that I really see like happening, you know, with my clients. 

Tami: I’m gonna have to book a consult cause I’m sold.

I’m like, yes, I would like that. So cool. So we just do a little business here, guys. You’re welcome. But I’m telling you, I met Hayley in a court, in a coaching program that we’re both participants in and I was like, I want to sit by her she’s effervescent. And she does a thing that I don’t know how to do.

And she’s delightful. So I need to get to know her better. So you’re welcome. So now all of my listeners are going to be like, what you can do video who’s this angel straight from heaven that can make this thing that I think is impossible possible. 

Hayley: Yeah. 

Tami: Right. Okay. So if you don’t yet follow Haley on social media, you should.

So Hailey. Where can people find you on Instagram specifically? Because I watch your stories and I’m like, girl, shut up. I want to come over. I’m gonna invite myself over to your house for some delicious food and some conversation. So tell us first where we can find your stories. And then let’s talk about self care, because that was another thing as I started following you on social media.

And I was like, somebody got the self care deck. D dialed, like she’s got it all. So I want to know more about it, but where can people find you? So they can be like, Oh, this is how you live that self care business. So where are you on Instagram? 

Hayley: So you can find me on Instagram at queer underscore mamma.

That’s my personal page and where I do most of my Grammy. You can also find my video production business at Everhart creative, and that’s ever hurt like your heart muscle, H E a R T creative. so you can find me there and that’s Instagram is where I’m most active these days. 

Tami: Cool. Okay. So how does self care.

And we were laughing before we started recording about how self care isn’t bass and manicures and all that stuff. But we both like those things. So how does self care affect your work in your business and in the world? 

Hayley: So I feel like I’ve gotten to a place, you know, in this, I don’t think was always true, but self care is such an integrated part of my life.

Now, like when I was reflecting on your questions before our conversation, thinking about what I wanted to say, I was like, Oh, I feel like. Every element of my life is self care. Like my work is self care. Like I get so much energy from working with clients. Like I am the lit up. Like I like when I have these long days, like I feel lit up by it.

I feel so deeply. I feel so deeply in alignment with my own life. And that’s something that I really worked for, you know, and I think. Yeah. So self care has become so integrated. Like it’s in my work, it’s in my love relationship, it’s in my parenting. And then of course I also have the things that, you know, aren’t necessarily as you know, productive.

but also bring me a lot of joy, like my garden and like writing and maintaining my relationships with my family and friends and you know, some of those other practices, but it, yeah, it really. It’s all a part of the ecosystem for me now. 

Tami: Oh, I love that idea of it. Self care, being an ecosystem.

And I agree it’s taken me like a really long time to integrate self care into every aspect of my work and my parenting and relationship and just how I live my 24 hours every day that I’m like what part of my life? Isn’t self care. Right. Like sometimes self care is, is having uncomfortable conversations.

I’ve been having a lot of uncomfortable conversations lately and I’m like, woo. But boy, like I am tired. I feel like I have an uncomfortable conversation hangover. And yet the discomfort of carrying that with me. Would permeate every part of my life that I’m like, Nope, I’d rather have the temporary discomfort of having that uncomfortable conversation.

And this is coming from somebody who has been notoriously, conflict avoidant. Like I feel like girl, you are having some growth in this regard, but it is so integrated now that I’m like, I can’t not say something. Yeah. That’s a little bit of self care. Okay. Again, I watch you on your stories. I’m like, who, what kind of magical family did you grow up in?

So I’m going to ask you about your growing up. So what did you learn about self care growing up? And I think you’re a millennial, correct. Okay. So I think so I’m gen X. And so there has been a shift, but I’m curious to see how self care was talked about in your family and in your generation. 

Hayley: So I think I got some conflicting messages growing up, like many of us.

I definitely got the counter example of the martyred working. Mother who was, you know, always doing too much for everyone and always burned out and resentful, you know, in a lot of ways. and I really saw that as a path that I did not want to follow 

Tami: me too. 

Hayley: I was like, 

Tami: I know I was like, no, thank you.

I’m good.

Hayley: Yeah. But then I also had a home where there was a lot of joy and connection with each other and you know, my parents are both really into gardening and they’re really into cooking and like being. Wait with friends. And so I saw some of these like sort of homemaking kind of elements, be a part of self care too.

You know, like my dad cooking 

Tami: done in community in, in partnership, self care or homemaking activities can be, but when it’s one person doing everything, that’s where it’s like, Ooh, that doesn’t look like fun, but it being split. 

Hayley: Yep. But you know, I think a lot of my. My lessons were more like, Oh, I don’t know like how to avoid that, but that is not going to work for me because it just doesn’t seem good for anyone.

Tami: Did you grow up in the Bay area? I 

Hayley: grew up on the East coast, actually. I grew up in DC. 

Tami: Oh, interesting. 

Hayley: What brought you to the Bay area? Well, I went to school in North Carolina college in North Carolina, and I loved it there, but I realized that I wanted to move to a big city for a while. I wanted to move to a big city with a lot of queer people where the weather was pretty decent, where I didn’t have to drive a lot.

These are like three main criteria 

Tami: check. 

Hayley: And then I was like, all right, the Bay areas, he was reasonable. and then I got here and I was like, Oh, yeah, this is home. I’m never leaving. Like I just, I feel like totally at home here. 

Tami: It’s funny. I actually grew up in the Bay area, spent a brief time in DC and was like, Are you high?

Like I could not have gotten home fast enough. And then I did a little stint in Portland and was like, yeah, if you guys could fix the light issue here, it’s too dark. And I drink too much. Like I’m super depressed. I got to go back home. 

Hayley: Like I need sunshine. I 

Tami: need sunshine. I, it turns out I’m a sunflower.

and, I’m in Sacramento, I feel like I’m just Bay area adjacent. 

Hayley: People from the East coast, asked me what I love about the bear and why. I know I’m never going back to DC. The thing I like to say is that In the Bay area, people are so like unabashedly weird and they’re just like doing their thing, like hard, like whatever it is.

And there’s just like an antique uniformity element here that just really works for me. 

Tami: One of the things. So I grew up in Richmond and I did a lot of time in Berkeley and Oakland, like with friends and work. And my mom worked in Oakland and Berkeley, and I remember being a teenager. And I was a nanny and I would drive around Berkeley and then you’d do whatever.

And I remember seeing women who were like perfectly suited up in you know, they’re at work, but they just had on, there wasn’t the, like I’m gonna change into my working girl sneakers to take Bart. They were just like, I’m wearing ugly, comfortable shoes because fuck you. I don’t know. We’re not going to do weird foot things for everyone.

Else’s comfort. Like I’m going to keep my own comfort. And I was like, I like the sensible shoe gals. I am a sensible shoe gal era. And I like it. I like people, like it’s a thing. The, I love the, there is a, a thread of non-conformity in the Bay area that makes my heart swell with of course we’re non-conformance because conformity is constraining and conformity is, it’s meant to shut you up.

I wasn’t born to. Be quiet, especially about injustice. There you go. Okay. So what are some of your, self care practices that you practice as a grownup? 

Hayley: So I have a whole array depending on what my needs are. I love to garden, like when I’m super stressed, like there is nothing better than just like getting my hands in the dirt, like growing things.

you know, if I just get outside being in the sun, being with plants like that to me is just. Just really lights me up. I think gardening is this beautiful way to look at existence. There’s like death in life and like planning, but also like total unpredictability and loss of control in any way.

Everything is for me there in gardening. so that’s a big one for me. And just being in the sun, soaking in buckets of water in my yard, like this being, if I have a really busy day, like I’ll just go outside for Five minutes and be in a Sunbeam. And that’s like really great recharge. I’m definitely a sunflower like you are.

I also meditate from time to time. I really love mindfulness practices. gratitude is like one of my primary go tos. It’s just like, All day, every day, all the gratitude in every way. And that is just a really big standby for me. I’m connecting with my people, especially my sister, who’s my best friend.

I talk to her all the time. and. Also, I asked my partner, I was like, what do I do for self care? Cause I feel like it’s just you know, and he was like, you make spreadsheets, you do lots of research. And I was like, Oh yeah, totally. You know, like it’s very comforting. 

Tami: Like I, I felt I learned some things and that I wrote them down.

I kept him in a safe place. Cause I might need those later. 

Hayley: Yup. And I love to write, I’m a, you know, I’m a journaler and a memoirist and, yeah, those are my big things, 

Tami: you know, so I am a big gratitude person also. And it’s stuff that I’ve been saying lately. Go, I wish I had 39 year old me. Cause it was right when I was becoming a mother and turning 40 and all that everything.

I was just like, Oh, Everything that wasn’t working for me before I’m done. And I took on gratitude as one of those practices. and I feel like it was so life changing internally, but it’s I don’t think anyone who has talked to me for more than five minutes is going to say, Oh, but you are blind.

there’s no blind optimism. And that’s one of the things I said earlier. I said, I’m going to stick to it and effervescent way of being in the world and how you present yourself. But I know that you, or deeply GRA gracious and deeply humbly full of gratitude, and you still see the world for what it is.

Hayley: Cause I think I really did appreciate that, 

Tami: but I think people get afraid. if I get too, if I get to gratitude, I’m going to forget all this stuff. It’s Oh no, don’t worry. It’s still there. And you still see it and you still feel it, but you also feel joy in a way that you can’t, unless you run after it with your hands, like I’m going to grab you.

Joy. I’m going to grab you good things, because like we’re genetically made up to notice the bad stuff. So please don’t use it. That’s going to go way, right? Yeah. But we have to practice that noticing the good stuff, muscle. 

Hayley: Yes. And, you know, I sat in a meeting the other day we were doing some check-in then I was like, I don’t know.

I think I’m just like relentless rejoiceful, but like you said, it doesn’t mean that there’s not a deep attunement with the other pieces. And I think that honestly, one of. The big parts of being a grownup is holding deeply onto contradictions. You know, like I feel like that’s just a thing that’s Oh, wow.

Like here I am with like deep grief and with deep gratitude or here I am in one of life’s hardest moments and. One of the most beautiful times. Like I can truly say that some of the hardest times of my life have also been some of the most beautiful and I hold those things and I sit with the contradictions, but I don’t necessarily try to make sense of them.

If that makes sense. They can just 

Tami: coexist. And it’s so I’m glad you said that because my mom died five years ago and it was, I will just say it is as gut wrenching as the sentence as my mom died is, and. I still practice gratitude every single day to, and including the day that she died, because my mom died.

I could also still see all of the wonderful things in my life on what would could be arguably like the worst day of your life. I was still like, this is the most delicious egg I’ve ever had. Friend who made me like literally five minutes after I found out my mom died, my friend fed me and I was like, I’m not hungry.

And she goes, well, that’s okay. You still have to eat. And I’m still going to feed you and your kid from the chickens, from my backyard, from the food that I grew, my, you love my friend, Candice, I’m just saying, but, and I was like, wow, this is big. And it was like, wow, life isn’t meant. To be easy or pleasurable, but it can be there’s practices that can make that happen.

Yes. Yeah. And they work. Do you actually write it down or do you think 

Hayley: it depends mostly. I just think it nowadays I have kept gratitude journals in the past and you know, sometimes we’ll do like gratitude practices at meals or, you know, but mostly, I just think it now. 

Tami: Yeah, I, we have a, we have gratitude practice at our house with our daughter.

And, and it is astonishing to me where people are like, how come your kid does this? I’m like, Oh, we practice gratitude literally daily. And is, she’s like particularly ungracious about something. I, my response to her as well, but what are you grateful for? She’ll go, Oh my God, how many do I have to do?

And I’m like, until one of us feels better. get your blessings on girlfriend because we’re not going to get stuck in everything sucks because that’s simply not true. 

Hayley: I had this profound moment with my daughter, who’s four going to be five and about a month, recently where she didn’t want to clear her plate.

Right. You know, and it’s hard to still cause she can barely carry like things about drop. you know, it’s high the thing, but you can do a lot around the house. You can fold laundry this and that. She was kind of giving me some attitude about I’m not going to clear my plate, you know? And I was like, well, you know, it’s really important.

And she’s all why. And I was like, well, it’s a way of expressing gratitude. Towards the meal. It’s a way of expressing gratitude to the person who prepared the meal for you, which, you know, in that case was me, or maybe it’s my partner. You know, it’s a way of expressing gratitude to the people who grew our food, brought it to us.

Like it’s a form of reverence basically. Right? It’s a way that we express to each other that we care about each other. Yeah. Network grateful. And she Walked away. And two minutes later, she like came over and started clearing the table, you know? And she’s like, all right. Yeah.

I’m gonna hit that track. 

Tami: Yeah. She’s Oh, that Trish she’s I saw the circle, you drew up this whole, like how the interconnected nature of how something starts as a seed. And that ends up on my plate. 

Hayley: And I only had, I, you mean, 

Tami: I only have to clean off the plate. Okay. Well, I guess I’ll do my part.

Yeah. And kids are into that, That idea of interconnectedness because they understand how connected they are with their caregivers. But as adults, we’re all connected to each other as well. Yeah. Even if we think that we’re not, we’re still connected, present these wacky things called mirror neurons, because what you like part of the reason, I feel like we’re, I feel like we’re kind of on the same wavelength in that I’m like, hi, you are giving me something that I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna smile because our brains are connected in that way.

Right. So the more, the more gratitude and the more reverence that you bring into your life, the more you. You get that back? 

Hayley: Yes. And the more you see, like you said, how, like you are always in collaboration with everything around you, you know, like back to the garden, I’m like, my plant is growing because of the sunshine and the water and the butterflies, like so many things are collaborating with us in every moment.

Tami: Right. And conversely, if everybody’s an asshole, but you, it might be, you. 

Hayley: Yes. Also true from toxic people. I’ve known. It’s at some 

Tami: point you gotta be like, there’s only one of us in common. It’s me. And I used to be that person. So I know this, I mean the only thing that saved me in my pre gratitude life as I am very funny.

And so people were like, ha. I was like, I know, but it was funny. It was like, it was a very sharp knife instead of a dull knife. But you got cut nonetheless. Sorry, not sorry, but that’s the thing like, what you get, what you give out, you get back and it’s not some, it’s not woo karma. It’s like science.

That’s how brains 

Hayley: work. Yes. 

Tami: Oh God. I love brain research that tells me the things that I have found out in my life. Thank you for figuring that out scientists. Okay. So where do you feel like your self care is going well? And what areas would you say would need more attention 

Hayley: if any. Okay. Well, I think one of the areas that I always think about is I really love to move my body joyfully, and that’s always kind of on my list of do more of, because I’m like, so in my brain and most of my work is in front of the computer.

Like many of us. and I’m very privileged and fortunate to have a like relatively at this point in time, it hasn’t always been true, but like a very mobile body that kind of behaves in the ways that I expect it to. but I always lend Oh, I want to get stronger and get more flexible.

And that is one of the things that kinda gets low on my priority list. But, you know, I do a lot of dishes. I walk around my kitchen. I like. I am in the garden. I have dance parties with my kid, but I’m probably never going to be like a regular exerciser. and again, that’s just about you know, I think it’s great to move our bodies.

Bodies are meant to move. It’s not, yeah, something I sort of feel shame about, but it’s one of those things that never makes it high on the list. 

Tami: What’s funny is again, after my mom died, the, ex I became a daily exerciser really easily because. My mom died at 69. I became a mom at 40 and I was like, Oh, I don’t want my, I don’t want to.

And my mom died of complications from diabetes, essentially, which can be, you know, a lot of lifestyle stuff can help in my family, blah, blah, blah. And so I don’t exercise for anything except internal. Like I exercise for my brain 

Hayley: exercise or 

Tami: for, I exercise for 80 year old me. 

Hayley: Yes. that’s what I wanna, that’s why I want to exercise a little more.

And when I was pregnant, I like exercise all the time because I felt like, because I knew it was good for the baby. So anyway, Ooh, 

Tami: that’s a good clue. Yeah, because you might have to think of future you as your like, motivation, like Oh yeah, because I feel like it’s human design flaw that we have to do all these things would have to have such a long like future me is going to love this.

But present me is this is dumb. 

Hayley: I could just keep working. 

Tami: I could just keep working or I could just keep sitting here, although. I, since the last couple of years I’ve been like, just kidding. I’m officially middle age. I just turned 50. And so I’m like, Oh my God, this is for real I’m in that age where they’re like, you have to stop screwing around, like 

Hayley: moving out here now 

Tami: feature arrived.

And you’re like, but I just don’t feel like past me. And they’re like, here’s your a colonoscopy. Wow. I didn’t anticipate that for some reason. Yeah. They’re like, even if you can pass for somebody younger, you’re still gonna have to do this stuff. 

Hayley: They’re like, all right. Fair enough.


Tami: Okay. So what’s your 

Hayley: morning routine? Like I’m big on 

Tami: morning and evening routines. So if you have a morning routine that works for you, or if you have a PM routine, I did not ask that in the questions, but I’m curious about. My am routine on lock. It’s so easy for me, cause I’m a morning person. My PM routine is always in flux and can go to hell in a handbag at any moment.

So tell me about your routines, Hailey. 

Hayley: Okay. So I don’t have a ton of routines. There’s only a couple things that I do every day in the morning. I always drink coffee and I always have an orgasm. 

Tami: You’re the second person 

Hayley: coffee orgasm, 

Tami: just saying, 

Hayley: yeah, I get up. Usually it’s strange. I’m a really early riser and my current partner, is the only person I’ve ever been with, who wakes up earlier than me.

So he often brings me coffee in bed. and I’ll drink coffee in bed and, you know, enjoy some time cruising on the internet or. I start checking my emails. I’ll have my morning orgasm and you know, and then I’ll get up and get to work. And then when my kid wakes up, I’ll, you know, snuggle with her, I wake up earlier than my kid.

Yeah. Yeah. and I’m the most productive in the morning. So I really like to like, do my focused work, like my script writing, or dive into a project, like 7:00 AM to like noon is like power time for me. I really like to dive right into work. And I also think I learned a long time ago because I am an early person that if I got my work done early in the day, then I could hang out with people later.

Tami: Yes. Like I feel like in a way. Like I keep farmers hours. it’s easier for me to get up at 4:00 AM than it is for me to stay up until 4:00 AM. So I’m like 

Hayley: a hundred percent 

Tami: we meet at 4:00 AM. I will just have slept a whole night before we do it. 

Hayley: Absolutely. I’m like, I will get, if I have thinking work to do, I can work late on certain things, but if I have like important thinking work to do, like I’d rather get up at four or 5:00 AM and do it, you know?

And then I like to be. 

Tami: I’m laughing. Cause I’m like, when you say late, do you mean like past 2:00 PM? 

Hayley: I know if I can be done by work at three I’m like awesome. You know, then I can start cooking. I can like, hang out with my kid. Like I can do whatever, you know? And then in the evening, you know, I like to read, maybe read before bed, always an orgasm before bed to, you know, yep.

Tami: I think you may have just unlocked a secret for a lot of people that are like, I, what I’m hearing is I’m not having enough orgasms or reading enough. 

Hayley: Yeah. That is 100% true. I think if you’re like orgasms, you will definitely sleep better and you definitely won’t feel worse. 

Tami: Right. Okay. I might add to catch the am and, or PM routine, both.

And I have you guys, if you are like, but I have issues around that area. I have an episode with my friend Kara house, who, her business is all about, sex ed and sexuality through from, I met her because she gave a talk to our preschool class, not the kids, but the parents. about how we can help not give our sexual baggage to our kids.

Hayley: Yeah. 

Tami: So she shout out to Carrie, I’m going to write in your notes, like link to Kara’s episode. I’m writing on my desk. there’s my big secret. I write in pencil on my desk. 

Hayley: I love it. You just need a little whiteboard desk. Well, I kind of have one chalkboard paint. it’s 

Tami: you know, I have an Ikea desk from 

Hayley: a white Ikea desk and a 

Tami: pencil.

It works great. but anyway, I’m going to add, I’m going to put orgasm on my list. I think that’s a good idea. Okay. So what else should people know about you? And then again, where can people find you online? especially people who are like, Oh, shit, I need help with video. So tell us where do you, what do we need to know about you and where can people find you online?

Hayley: what people can know is that I do full service video production, as I mentioned. So I help companies, profits and small businesses create videos, start to finish from writing the scripts, you know, filming our sourcing footage, editing the piece and giving it to you in a form that you can put on your website for your fundraiser or on your social media.

So do a lot of help with people who are getting their events online, as we know, like everything is video now. So if you have an event that’s turning virtual, if you’re working on an online class, if you need to do some live streaming, like I’m your lady and I got you. And I also do consulting with folks who are trying to figure out how to, you know, better up either their tech or their, you know, On camera personality.

any of those pieces, like I, you know, I feel like I already saw this, but I. I just so strongly believe that everyone can make amazing video and that the world will be a better and more beautiful place. The more of us are sharing our beautiful, diverse stories and selves. And there is no reason in this current moment that we cannot all be harnessing the power of video to share ourselves online.

And I think it’s just such a powerful tool for connection and for growing, a business or a cause online. 

Tami: I love it. And I. I wholeheartedly concur with we, people want to work with people they know and trust, and there’s no better way for people to learn about you and your business and who you are then actually seeing your face and talking to them.

Hayley: Yeah. Exactly. So you can find me on Instagram again, queer underscore mamma or Everhart creative. And you can also find me on my website, Everhart creative.com or you can email me Haley, H a L E y@everhartcreative.com too. Perfect. 

Tami: I love it. Okay. Haley, are you ready for our quick fire questions? 

Hayley: I’m ready.

Tami: Okay. So I used to watch inside the actor’s studio, but only the last five minutes because I did, it was like, I don’t care about the craft and all that. You all say the same thing. What I want to know is the quickfire questions. So I came up with my own and I took one of theirs, which is the last question.

Which is, what is your favorite swear word? Because I always want to have an explicit rating. People are like, Oh, I don’t want to have an explicit rating on my podcast. I’m like every fucking episode it’s explicit because I cannot be thinking about not swearing while I’m having good conversations. I cannot be bothered with censoring myself.

So that’s why I chose that question. Okay. First question, Haley, what is your Enneagram type? 

Hayley: You could probably guess it’s a three.

Tami: I hear you. I see your three, but you also said that you have it. Oh, you don’t have an inner critic? 

Hayley: No. Okay, cool. I mean, not really. 

Tami: I have one, I have yours. Don’t worry. I love threes. Cause I’m like, I get you. I get tons of stuff done too. But then I’m like, Ooh, that girl in your, head’s not slowing you down.

Like she’s slowing me 

Hayley: down now. I know I’m more of a wing two. Maybe then anything else? Like 

Tami: I’m a one wing too. There we go. Okay. Okay. Introvert or extrovert? 

Hayley: I like it. Just say that I’m an outgoing introvert or a very selective extrovert. 

Tami: Okay. So do you know your Myers? 

Hayley: I get in TJ. 

Tami: Really? I am Inn. Yes.

Okay. Known as the extroverted introvert. 

Hayley: Oh, maybe I need to retake it. Maybe it’s been awhile. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Okay. Have you heard of the Gretchen Rubin for tendencies? 

Hayley: I looked it up because I liked to prepare. 

Tami: Okay, good. And so did you take the quiz 

Hayley: or you did 

Tami: and what did it come up with? 

Hayley: Okay. It came up with obligers.

The one that’s meets external expectations, right. More than internal. Yeah. Yeah. Close I’m. Like I bridged that in the upholder, but. I definitely have some obliger tendencies. 

Tami: Okay. And I work with almost exclusively. I we’re working with, I work with almost exclusively, obligers because I need external accountability and rebels and cause rebels are like, you can’t boss me around and neither can I, and I’m like, let me explain how we can work around your internal dialogue about getting stuff done.

And I am a questioner. It means every time somebody comes at me with, I have to do something I’m like, You better prove it the off. Cause I’m like, I’ve been like that since birth. I just am super quiet about I’m not doing it. I’m just like, 

Hayley: you know, see, I think I was like that when I was younger, but I think I’ve structured a life such that like the only people that I let give me external expectations, I’m like very selective about.

Yeah. And then I think the obliger piece, like I’m moving definitely more into the upholder because of, you know, my own battery work that I’ve done in the past 10 years. Exactly. I 

Tami: mean, it’s so interesting though. Right? Okay. Love language. But he 

Hayley: asked what service for sure. 

Tami: 100%. And it’s so funny again, watching you and what girl, I see you doing stuff now.

What is your, do you know what your secondary is? 

Hayley: It’s like active services. So high. I think my secondary is way lower, but it’s words of affirmation. 

Tami: I’m words of affirmation and then acts of service. And my spouse is opposite. He is acts of service words. So we’re just in this love language continuum of doing stuff and giving compliments.

Doing stuff that compliments, 

Hayley: I was not, I was previously married to someone who was not acts of service. And now my current partner is definitely acts of service, Mormon background, like service deeply embedded to like the cultural norms, you know, and yeah, it’s exactly what you’re describing. Just all like beautiful acts of service and the other pieces come into, but like we really get each other on that way.

Tami: And it’s I. Okay. So that book is super Jesus. See, at the end, like I want to rip the last 50 pages out and go, don’t read that part. So I think I can’t wholeheartedly, Oh my God. Dive into this, but I, the framework to be so helpful. And once he found that out, I was like, Sweetheart. We never have to buy another gift.

He’s Oh, thank God. We’ll see. We can stop pretending we care about gifts. I’m like, I will want gifts, but I’m going to tell you what I want. And you’re going to buy that as an act of service. And we’re going to high five about how I want exact thing. And he’s right back at you, 

Hayley: I’ve been with people who like, it’s like quality time is their number one.

And like quality time. I mean, of course I like care about it, but it doesn’t have that like resonance for me. And I’m always just Okay. I guess here we are. This seems fine. I don’t know. it’s not really doing for me what I think it’s supposed to be doing for you. 

Tami: Totally. And it’s so funny.

I had to rename all of the love languages. So I call, acts of service, getting shit done, or doing shit for you. I call words of affirmation is gold stars. 

Hayley: Yeah, 

Tami: and I call quality time asses in the seats. physical touch is like it’s hugging and gifts as gifts. I’m like, I don’t know what to tell you, but it’s so funny.

One of my friends. Her fiance is, he’s a, his love language is gifts. And he is like so extravagant. And I’m like, dude, every time when you leave the house, you just get him something, anything. Yeah. Thinking about you, I got you this chocolate chip cookie. Now you don’t know that I got free with my lunch, but I thought of you.

And she was like, what? And she tried it. She was like, Oh, I was like, I know I don’t it’s it’d be that simple, but I’m like, maybe it’s that simple. 

Hayley: Totally. 

Tami: maybe it’s that simple. I just have to give you the thing that makes you feel the way you want to feel. 

Hayley: Okay. 

Tami: And they have it for kids.

Have you done it for your 

Hayley: daughter yet? I haven’t. I should. That would be fun. 

Tami: I will say my kid is a quality time. With an acts of service slash gold stars that just might be modeling, but that’s her secondary. But I tried it because I thought no way. And then I started playing board games at 6:00 AM.

Hayley: My daughter’s behavior. 

Tami: Completely changed. I was like, I just had to play UNO and then, and you’ll be like, so cooperative, like one day we’ll get me homework done. Another game of UNO will get me complete compliance on the morning routine. 

Hayley: I feel great. I feel like quality time is probably my kids. Number one, but the acts of service, definitely a close second.

I can’t remember recently because you know, my partner and I are really into acts of service and he is such a homemaker and he was always dialing things in the house to really be like delightful for me and for us. And the other day she was like, Evan, I feel like I need a towel in the bathroom.

That’s my height. Like she’s starting to notice these like moments. And I feel like, yeah, it’s really her way of saying this is how you can show me that you love me too, you know? And they’re in a step parent relationship he’s been in our lives for maybe a year and a half, you know? So it’s it’s just fascinating.

I’m so beautiful to see like that culture of like love, you know, of all. 

Tami: Well, and I just got chills because your daughter’s not even five. And she’s Hey, you know, it would be really helpful for me. Is this very small, what we could do be kind of look out as maybe even insignificant. And she’s but if you give me that, then I can participate in this meaningful way in work that is making our house better for everyone.

Yeah. I’ll just tell you, Haley, you come to my house and you go, can I have a spoon? And I’m like, sure. Go to the drawer by your knees. Like, why is your silverware so low? Because when my kid was two, I said, can you put that silverware away from the dishwasher? And she’s really short. So we just everything’s our microwave.

It’s six inches off the ground. I to heat up something I have to get on the ground and people like, why am I, well, I want my kid to be able to make a case. Yeah. So the microwave has to be low. Her dishes are low and the silverware is low. Because I want her to have this meaningful, I want her to have meaningful work in her house so that she builds this confidence that she is a meaningful contributing member to our family.

Hayley: Yes. Part of our culture too. And people are always like, wow, your kid does X, Y, and Z. And I’m like, yeah, I mean, you know, part of it’s her, she was definitely the life one and a half year old. I do it myself. But also part of it’s as, you know, being like, no, this is what it means to be in a family.

Totally. I mean, 

Tami: my daughter’s name is Ruby, but she. Called herself, Rudy for years, Rudy, I was like, okay, Rudy, let me teach it. every time there’s a hole in something that she, that belongs to her, I don’t really know how to sell, but I can make a hole, disappear, something 

Hayley: in a rude way, 

Tami: threaded the needle and gave it to her and showed her how.

And I have all these videos of her, like two and three years old, like sewing her pillow back together or sewing her stuff down and we’ll back together. And people like how I was like, I never had a more enthusiastic participant than a toddler in anything I’m like, Oh, you want to help?

Let me teach you how to fold napkins. And then we’re going to fold dish towels, and then you can fold. I was like, I don’t know how to an advanced degree in laundry, 

Hayley: but 

Tami: I do have somebody who wants to learn. So we’ve been taking summer during shelter in place to, cause we don’t have a house cleaner anymore.

I’m sad. So the house cleaner is me and everybody else that lives here. So I have been teaching her how to clean the bathroom. And so we’re in the shower, like scrubbing the tile and doing the thing. And she turns around and she goes, Oh mama, this is so fun. I was like, Kati you’re so nine gotta collect this energy and you’re going to be so good at cleaning that everyone’s going to be out of your roommate.

Hayley: Me 

Tami: a roommate that knows how to clean the bathroom. Well, and she’s I love spending this time with you. I’m like, okay, we could literally be doing anything and now I’m clean teaching you how to clean a shower. Okay, 

Hayley: cool. I love kids so much. I do too. I do too. 

Tami: Is if we put them to work in the way that’s meaningful, I feel like it’s if you have a border Collie, You can have a nervous Nellie, crazy person, crazy dog who chews up all your stuff, or you can give that dog who’s meant to work a job.

And then they can be like the best dog ever. let’s just harness people’s innate skills and talents and traits. 

Hayley: Yes. Yeah. Kids want to help. They want to work. They want to learn. It’s yeah. And yeah, if you’ve got them at the right age, when it’s still like super fun and not a burden, 

Tami: Yeah, but I will say, but a lot of people like, but they are not 

Hayley: very good at it.

That’s true. It takes a lot of patients. It’s so true. I mean, even with the cooking, like I’m super into cooking and baking and like things don’t always turn out as well, or they take three times as long and that’s where I really do call on future self, and future child. Like I imagine her, you know, at 20 or whatever, like having this high level of skills or I even imagine me, you know, five, 10 years and what she’s able to do because I stuck with it and had that extra level of patience because you see what happens.

It’s like that short term thinking it doesn’t pan out in the long run. 

Tami: Well, I, so I S I don’t know if you know this, but I used to be an elementary school teacher. So when I was in my student teaching, you know, cause right. You know, writing is a process. It’s there’s the thinking part. And then there’s the drafting part.

And then there’s the actual, like writing production. And then there’s the editing. And then, excuse me, there’s the revising actually making it better. And then there’s the editing, which is like correcting your shit. And then there’s the publishing. Right. And the teacher I was working collaborative with, she would do a lot of the, the editing for them.

She’s they’re terrible at this. I was like, but how are they ever going to get better? You’re doing it like you’re sick. And so kids, I had to have a student. My first year of teaching was like, Yeah. A couple months in and he said, I w I’ll never forget this. He goes, you are one of the laziest grownups I have ever met.

And I was like, 

Hayley: okay, 

Tami: can you tell me more about that? He’s you don’t do anything around here, but open the door and write the schedule on the board. And I was like, and your point he’s what do you do here? And I said, well, I said, thank you for noticing. I said, I have a philosophy and that is, if kids can do it at any level, they should be doing it.

Cause I already went to third grade and 

Hayley: I’m 

Tami: good at third grade stuff. Cause I’m like 35 and I said, don’t worry. I said next year, when you go to a different teacher’s class, They will treat you like a baby again, and you will not feel nearly as good about yourself as you do in this moment. But he was like, okay.

Hayley: You’re 

Tami: just, you’re lazy. I’m just, you’re on molest. I was like, okay, whatever. And then the first week of school, the next year, he literally ran up to me on the playground. He’s like, how did you know? I was like, I eat lunch with your teacher. I, we all eat lunch together. They’re my friends. This is how this works.

And he was like, Yeah. Yeah, I go, I just, you guys are terrible at stuff cause you’re inexperienced and I give you lots and lots of opportunity to practice and to help each other. And yes, does it. I was like, does it make my life easier? I was like, yeah, by the end of the year, it’s easier. It’s really hard for me not to micromanage your terrible work right now.

I’m looking at the long game. But I had students write me letters, like when they were in high school and they were like, why literally the hardest I ever worked was in your class. And I was like, I love you 

Hayley: too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: I know. And it’s painful when we’re all growing together and we’re learning stuff. I hate learning.

It sucks. it’s painful. It’s uncomfortable. You’re bad at stuff. but it’s 

Hayley: horrible to be bad at stuff. 

Tami: Yeah. But it’s literally, there’s you can’t skip it. I guess that’s the 

Hayley: point. That’s what I always talk to her about. I’m like, Oh, of course. Oh, learning new things is all hard. It’s so hard to not be good at stuff, but that’s how we learn new things.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. Well, so what’s your favorite last book that you read? 

Hayley: That’s a tough one, but I’m going to say an American marriage. Have you read it? 

Tami: Oh, it was so good. Okay. Good choice. what is your favorite book of all time? Hard 

Hayley: to say, but why be happy when you can be normal to not Winterson memoir, that’s a lie for her mother.


Tami: be happy 

Hayley: when you could be normal. It’s like they it’s like the counter to what you and I have been talking about. yeah. And I, and her rebellion 

Tami: and I’m going to go get it. Okay. What is your favorite personal development book? 

Hayley: You know, I don’t know. I’m not much of a personal development reader, but when I saw this question, I was thinking about the book parenting from the inside out, which I really loved.

Tami: That was one of the only parenting books. Yeah. 

Hayley: Yeah. One of the only ones worth reading how to talk. So kids will listen and listen. So kids will talk. That’s also, 

Tami: I’m looking at that book right now on my shelf and I am a huge proponent of positive discipline by Jay Nelson. but all of those things fit together.

Like they’re all like. Yeah. Parenting from the inside out. If you guys haven’t read it yet, here’s what you need to know, get your shit together. And your kids will be fine. damn. You ain’t even have to read the book. You don’t have to know shit. Cause you know what it’s you, it’s not them.

Mirror neurons. 

Hayley: Get your shit. 

Tami: Your kids will be fine. And that’s what I was like, Oh man, that goes back to the mission of my work, which is. Let us not think that you can somehow parent better than your personal state of being. Yes. 

Hayley: It doesn’t work like that. I know when you hear the martyr parents thing, you know, and they’re so stressed out and they’re so irritable and they’re beating themselves up by, you know, they’re snapping at their kids and you know, this and that.

And all I can think is yeah, you got to get yourself straight. Like you’re never going to be less irritable. You’re not going to serve that to solve that interpersonally until like you take care of yourself and 

Tami: go to the source. 

Hayley: Yeah. Yep. 

Tami: Yeah, I do. I do love that book, although, but reading it, I was like, why is this book more than one sentence?

Hayley: I know, I think I maybe like half of it. And then I was like, okay. Yeah, 

Tami: got it. Get my shit together. Go into therapy. Okay. Okay. Oh, you mean? Yeah. Do self care. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that one up because yes, that is a good one. Favorite social media channel. Where do you like to hang out? Really?

Okay. I’m hearing you. I have enjoyed a lot of watching. Like I see people post stuff on Twitter cause I love Twitter. sometimes Instagram is where I hang out the most, but I do love Twitter, tick tock. Okay. I’m going to say this in the most, uninformed and nonjudgmental. And Annette, I’m going to say stick with uninformed.

I have heard rumors that it’s really bad for information, mining, even worse than like the bullshit we’re on with Zuckerberg. 

Hayley: Yes, it is. You know, and I think that’s a real serious issue. and one that really needs to be addressed, but just in terms of the pure joy I get from hanging out on there, like it’s just got great content, 

Tami: So what kind of content do you consume or do you make content or both? 

Hayley: Both. and again, you know, it was a younger, the person in this case, my stepdaughter, it was like my sister who was like, get on YouTube, I’ve done them all. I was like a huge Twitter person. Like years ago I had an anonymous Twitter.

I’ve done everything. Right. I love YouTube. I still like Instagram a lot, but my stepdaughter was like, you got to get on tick tock. And then I was like, alright, I’ll like, try to make a tech talk. I kept trying to figure it out and I couldn’t figure out. And finally, I just like. Made one while my partner was like doing my hair and then I just uploaded it.

And then it like got a million bucks. And my step daughter was 

Tami: like, 

Hayley: Oh my God, I told you it’d be good. And I was like, well, I guess I am a professional story teller. So even me just fooling around, like it had to be, you know, Anyway, but now I don’t really make that much. I mostly consumed and there’s just everything.

Tami: I mean, there’s just really 

Hayley: interesting content. There’s this whole like lesbian subculture, that’s called like cottage core. That’s basically like cute queer people, homesteading sort of adjacent foresty. There’s a ton of black lives matter content on there. There’s you know, trans and gender queer youth, just being like, I don’t care about you.

And I do a lot of work with like youth driven nonprofits too. And I just got to say the kids are, you know, black and Brown and queer and move out of the way old white guys. So like, whenever I hang out with you, which is a little bit like what I feel like I’m doing on take top, I’m like, all right, we’re going to be fine.

Tami: I think it’s funny. I, as a gen X person, I feel like the thing that has, made this latest generation, which I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna predict it. The greatest generation is the democratization of information 

Hayley: dissemination, 

Tami: like giving everyone their own goddamn channel. He has changed the world cause old white guys they own when there was only four channels that they dominated those Jacqueline.

Hayley: But 

Tami: now that the channels are infinite, you’re like, I don’t have to, 

Hayley: I don’t need those gatekeepers, bye. 

Tami: Exactly. And once the gatekeepers are gone and that democracy, that’s why also why it feels really Oh my God, things are out of control because there’s no gatekeepers. That’s actually a good 

Hayley: thing.

Agreed 100%. I did a project years ago interviewing lesbian YouTube owners on like why they had their channels and this and that. And every single one of them was like, I needed a place to go where I could be in control of my own content. And I didn’t need to ask a gatekeeper for permission. And I was like, yeah, that’s profound.


Tami: just make fingers all tingling when you said that. Yeah. It’s. I’m here for people who were formerly disenfranchised to be like, I’m not going to play within that power structure anymore. Cause I don’t have 

Hayley: to exactly love it as a storyteller. And I just think it’s just very interesting, like from a storytelling perspective, 

Tami: I think it’s interesting from a democracy perspective.

Hayley: Absolutely. 

Tami: You know, I worked in politics for a long time. And again, there was, when I was doing it 20 years ago, there was like one channel, like the internet had basically just started being invented, but we were still for all of our mail. We were sending things in the physical mail. Right. And people had to watch commercials and people had to do all of these things and you don’t have to do any of that anymore.

It re it requires a level of responsibility on the consumers part. Yes. In such new ways. But I like being a grownup about stuff. 

Hayley: I like that. I like that all different kinds of people can see themselves reflected in the media because. There’s so many different kinds of content. Like you said, the fifth year old woman, like how to look better as an older like that wouldn’t no one had, would have funded that show, you know?

Tami: Exactly. Well also because you know, 50 year old women are I’m old. I don’t look, I actually look younger 

Hayley: now 

Tami: than I did 20. That’s 

Hayley: awesome. 

Tami: Part of it is because of the content that I. consume by other people my age, who are like, you know, you need to do, you need to lift that camera up and you need to put the filter on everything that you’re on.

You need to do this. And I’m like, what? 

Hayley: Grab your ring light. 

Tami: Grab your ring light. I’ll we still have to solve there. The glasses in the ring light 

Hayley: conversation. Yes. We need to talk about 

Tami: that. Talk about that. okay. We have gone 

Hayley: off. I know I was going to say that relates to my favorite TV show, which I know is your next question, which is.

Probably I got to say, I’m not actually a big TV consumer. I make so much more content that I consume, but grace and Frankie, baking of incredible older women. 

Tami: I love that. Love 

Hayley: that. 

Tami: I love everything about that show. And it’s so funny because I write this question as what’s your favorite TV show. But what I really mean is what is your favorite show past, present and future, if you were going to write one or if you’ve already got one, so grace and Frankie makes the list.

What other kinds of media do you like or that have you created that other people should check out? 

Hayley: Oh, that’s a good question. I mean, I just think it’s amazing that there’s actually like queer content now. there just were no queer shows like really when I was growing up and this is not a TV show, although I hope they would make it.

But when I saw fun home, which is like the Alison Bechtel, like dykes to watch out for comic, it was made into a Broadway musical. And when I sat in a theater and watched like a Butch dykes story, On a giant stage with a massive audience. I was just balling. Like I was just like, Holy fuck. This is so profound.

Tami: Well, the idea that representation matters is in all regards, it’s so funny. I was having a conversation with somebody who is running for city council, not in my town. And I met her in a group. Called dear grown-ass women. it’s a ladies group for people over 35. It’s awesome. Anyway, we were talking about, representation and I was like, what’s so weird is in 1991, I wrote a college paper about black female representation in Congress and how, the only way that black women were going to be protected in this country is if there were more black women in office.

And she was like, what kind of fucking profit are you? I was like, well, I’m not, I just look at the power structure. And I’m like, dudes are taken care of, they don’t stay women’s health and they sure should throw it saying white women’s health. They’re not sure should not studying black women’s 

Hayley: health.

Tami: And if you have women at the table women’s issues, I was actually working or in later than I worked in the current congressional caucus for women’s issues. That’s not a mouthful to say. but I was like, 

Hayley: they don’t 

Tami: men typically, especially men in power do not see what they are not. They don’t, I don’t give a fuck.

Cause they’re like that doesn’t affect me. We’re not going to study menopause. That doesn’t affect me. And we’re not going to study birth control. We’re not going to study the effects of this common drug 

Hayley: on 

Tami: anybody, but if 

Hayley: 150 year old, Man. I’m like, well, why are you giving it to women? Right. It’s 

Tami: crazy town.

Okay. So that was another soap box that everyone is welcome to. Finally, 

Hayley: Hailey, 

Tami: what is your favorite swear word? 

Hayley: Dominantly. Fuck. 

Tami: The hands down, runaway winner. My daughter just walked in the room, started laughing cause we a week, not that long ago at our family meeting and our goal for the week was for all of us to stop swearing so much because it didn’t work, but we were like, we’re going to have to go out with other people at some point,

edit that out. 

Hayley: I’m 

Tami: going to edit that out. Stop it. Go back in the kitchen. I’m almost done. Go back in the kitchen. Katie, can you add up, edit out Ruby. Swearing. I’m not talking to Katie. I’m talking to Haley. Go in the kitchen.

Okay. That’s what you get. It’s showing off her company. They’re like, Oh, I got some squares. No seriously, Katie, if you could white out that part of Ruby, swearing, anyhow, 

Hayley: fuck 

Tami: is by and large. it’s the word that, it’s the word that keeps on giving 


Hayley: It makes a statement very useful. Very useful.

Tami: Okay. Friends, you know, Haley. It’s going to help you solve your storytelling and your video problem. So find her on Instagram, check out our website. And until next time, remember that you matter too.


EP 67: Organizing Everything with Lisa Woodruff

EP 67: Organizing Everything with Lisa Woodruff

This week’s episode is all about systems and organization. I interviewed Lisa Woodruff the creator of Organization 365 and the author of The Paper Solution.

Organization is a learnable skill. Lisa and I are both former teachers and we talk about teaching our kiddos how to take care of their spaces, stuff and how we can empower our families through imperfect action.

This is such good news because that means if we aren’t yet organized we can learn it and if our kids aren’t yet organized they can learn too!

Tami: Good morning. 

Lisa: Good morning. 

Tami: So happy to see her face. Okay. So who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Lisa: So my name is Lisa Woodruff. I am the founder and owner of organized three 65 and I help busy women get their home and paper organized in one year with functional systems that work. 

Tami: I just got chills because, Oh my God, I help women get their time and energy back so they can go after their big dreams and maybe not be chased by their paper monsters.

So Lisa, tell me. How you work with people and more importantly, tell me about your brand new book, the paper solution. 

Lisa: Yes. So originally with people was one on one as a professional organizer, but now I’m more like your adult teacher and I teach you through the organized three 65 podcast. And if you like my teaching style, then you can go deeper with books and courses.

And in our online communities, And the paper solution is my newest book out. And it’s being published by penguin random house. And it is 

Tami: all about how to 

Lisa: organize paper. There really is not a good book out there. That’s not just the digital solution, but how do we actually do the act of organizing, going from stuffed piling cabinets to a solution that is ready to be digitized that in between organizational phase, that’s where I live.

Tami: And what I did again, I got chills because I actually worked with a professional organizer last year for six months. And one of the things we did is we took four file for like many to Dirk bile cabinets down to one. And I thought, there’s no way this is possible, but it is possible. So I have all of these clients that I work with.

And one of the things that they say is. God, if I could just be more organized, I’m like, I know people who can help you. I know people who do this for a living. So tell me a little bit more about the book. What could people expect about, um, helping slay that, um, that paper dragon, I call it deferred.

Decisions. Yes. I call it my shame pile. So tell us how you help people get rid of that in their home so they can move forward and live a more peaceful existence. Yes. 

Lisa: So your audience that is starting to get organized. I could tell you right now where they’re starting in their closet or they’re starting their kitchen.

That’s where everybody starts, because that’s where we spend most of our time. And the benefit of starting in your kitchen or in your closet is there’s a plethora of information. There are books, there are videos, there’s Pinterest, there’s all these examples of what it looks like when you’re done. When you’re doing paper organization, it looks like a color coded filing cabinet.

Like how does that help you? It helps you with aesthetically, what it looks like. But it doesn’t teach you anything about the categories of paper. And so what I did in the paper solution book was 

Tami: I took your paper 

Lisa: and I made it feel like different categories of clothing or different categories in your kitchen.

So you’re like, Oh, these are all medical papers. These are all financial papers. These are all kid related papers. These are all actionable papers. And then once you got a category of paper, I said, okay, great. Now we have all of our. Medical paper, honestly, most of what you do for medical is still in your brain.

So I need to give you these worksheets and I need you to fill these out and put them with the rest of your medical papers. So you have a complete medical binder. That was the other thing I found with paper. It’s not just being able to categorize and trim down the paper. We have 

Tami: a lot of the really 

Lisa: important part of paper is in our brain or on our computer.

And not digitized on our computer, but like it’s medical records that are in the program that our pediatrician has for our kids. And we go and we get that and we print it out and you added in the binder. So our filing cabinet is about a third what’s on the internet is about a third and what’s in your brain is about a third.

And you add all that together and then you have complete binders and there are four binders that really will help you feel more organized. 

Tami: And I love this idea of getting it out of your brain because. So many people feel overwhelmed because they’re BK because there’s like the clutter of the paper and the like, Oh my God, what do I do?

And why did, why does school send home so many papers? And what’s the deal. But also it’s that constant feeling like you’re missing something feeling like it’s not quite complete. And that drains so much of people’s energy. So I’m super excited about this book. 

Lisa: you’re using your brain like a, to do list and your brain is a super a computer that’s supposed to be planning out the visions and the unique thing that you were created to do in the world.

You’re using it to remember to get milk and to schedule another haircut. And so if you could start using paper for that and a weekly planning time and a couple of binders that run your household, you’re going to free up your brain to do things like think. And it’s, um, it’s amazingly freeing. 

Tami: Yeah. yes it is.

And again, the other side of that is so I help people get their time and energy back so they can go up to their big dreams. But a lot of times when you ask people what they really want, what is their vision? When you ask them, who are you going to be in 25 years? They’re like, I have no idea because I have to order that school uniform, how am I going to handle distance learning?

And what do I do with all this stupid paper? So between the two of us, we can really get people thinking in this bigger, more global, like how can I be somebody who creates the world? I want to see it’s you stop worrying about. All the paper, 

Lisa: a hundred percent. It’s the paper in the house. And I was finding the same exact thing.

Like I say, spend 12 to 18 months with me and then go out and do what you were uniquely created to be in the world. And then people say, Lisa, I’m organized. How do I do that? What I was finding for many women is that they would start to. Do what they were uniquely created to do if they knew what that was.

And then something falls apart at home and then they give themselves guilt and shame about the fact that they didn’t have it perfect at home. So I have to give up that dream and go home and make sure all the laundry is done and all the dishes are done and the house is clean and everything is organized before I’m allowed.

To leave the house like Cinderella and go do anything. And as soon as I am on a plane or over here, and something falls apart at home, it’s my responsibility that fell apart at home. And what I hear from people once they get their paper in their home, organized is they are literally out doing something and they get that call.

Where is this paper? How do we do this? And they go, it’s in the third pink slash in the Sunday basket, go get it. And they feel like a rock star and they go on with it. Yeah. Life. 

Tami: But if their 

Lisa: house is in cleaned and organized enough where they can give those directions, whether they should be responsible for that or not, let’s just not even get into that.

Are apparently 

Tami: when you get an organized, 

Lisa: you get time and then you get freedom because you can give directions to people who are still at home and asking those things of you. 

Tami: and you can also empower the other people in your house to follow the systems that are set up. So I have a rising fourth grader, so my kid’s about to be 10.

And one of the things that I hear over and over, and she has ADHD and some sensory stuff, but what I hear over and over again is she always knows where her things are at school. And it cracks me up because I’m like, of course she does because she has a system because we’ve been working on systems.

For her entire life. So every time she says, where are my shoes? I’m like, I would definitely look in the shoe basket first after that, I don’t know you’re on your own. If you didn’t use the system that we’ve created, but there’s a really good likelihood that they found themselves back where they belong, because we have a system you’ve been using the system, we use the system and it just helps free up everyone in the house.

And it also empowers. Are you are young people. I know you have or kids, but it empowers them to think, Oh, I know how to run a house. Because I learned this step by step way to make these things happen. 

Lisa: you’re pointing out that organization is a learnable skill. It is going to take some people longer to learn it, but it is a learnable skill.

So my children both have learning disabilities, ADHD, sensory, just add just. They’re all the, we have most of the diagnoses you’re going to throw at us. One of them has it. So my son extreme ADHD learned to organize very quickly. He’s very much a minimalist. And so he doesn’t have very many, his thing was, Oh, if I have nothing, the mom can’t make me stay in my room to organize my room that worked for him.

My daughter loves lots of things. She loves she’s very eclectic. So to get her to learn, to organize her room took 18 months. Of me doing it every single Saturday with her and the whole first month was her laying on the bed while I did it verbally telling her what I was doing in overtime. Just this week, she’s reorganizing her basement apartment.

She is 19 years old, comes up in our bedroom and she goes, I don’t know where to start. I said, great. Go get all the laundry and start the laundry. So she goes away, comes back half an hour later. Okay. At the laundry started, what do I do next month? Okay. Go get all the trash. So I’m going through what we learned 10 years prior when I taught her at the age of nine, but she and my son too.

He’ll call me. He’s like my apartment’s over. Where do I start? Okay. Joey, get a little laundry, started calls and call me back, get all the trash, go call me back. And I created this little system for them that eventually they stopped coming in my bedroom and stop calling me because I got them going in that mode of what it takes to organize this.

Space, their space has just gotten bigger than their bedroom. It’s a learnable skill. We get stuffed in overwhelmed when it gets too big and out of control. And we need to get it back in order again. So 

Tami: you used to be a teacher. I used to be a teacher. So I think that for people who are listening, who are not teachers, one of the things I hear from non-teachers is this is one of my favorite questions.

They go, how many times am I have to talk to my kid about X I’m? Like. As many as it takes for them to stop asking for help, like that’s all, as long as it takes, the reason they’re asking is because they don’t know yet. So make it really teachable. 

Lisa: And also everyone has their own bandwidth for what they can handle, like, so I’m recording a whole bunch of interviews today and then I’m going to drive from Cincinnati to Columbus to be something for my son and home.

And my husband’s like, aren’t you going to be exhausted? And I’m like, yeah, but it’s important. And I’m just going to do it. And I have that capacity. He doesn’t have that capacity. So for our children growing up, they have never done a chores. Like 

Tami: they 

Lisa: don’t do dishes. They didn’t learn to do laundry until they were 18 years old was a huge, okay.

Endeavor for them. And they needed a lot of downtime and they had a lot of anxiety. So it’s not that everything is learnable. So because it’s learnable, everyone has to do everything perfectly. And until you have all your chores done, you can’t relax. Like you have to be realistic with everybody’s different capacity levels.

But if you want to teach something, if you want to learn something, there is a way to do it. 

Tami: Yeah, and I feel like, but it’s having, we use a lot of checklists in our house and we use a lot of visual reminders and we use a lot of one, one at a time. There’s not a lot of, um, since we’ve been doing distance learning, obviously we’re in the 20, 20 era.

Um, one of the things, so we don’t have a house cleaner anymore, which is both devastating and amazing because I’m like, It’s a bummer to clean your own house. You guys, we all know that’s part of my self care. However, I took every single job. Like I broke down how to clean a bathroom and I put every single step on a posted note.

And then I put it in the bathroom with us and I brought my nine year old and I was like, what’s one of the pick a thing. Let’s do it. And so I’ve been systematically teaching her each part and every time we’re in the tiny bathroom together and we only have one bathroom, but that thing is spit shined within an inch of its life because she’s like, mama, this is so fun because we’re in there together.

She’s learning grownups skill. I’m like you are going to be the best roommate anyone has ever had. Starting with me being your roommate. I really want somebody else to know how to clean the bathroom. And if you think this is fun, I caught you at the right age. But, and if 

Lisa: you don’t have your house cleaner right now, or you’re like, Oh, it would be nice to have a house cleaner.

I can let you know it’s seven weeks before dust becomes noticing. So go ahead. 

Tami: Everything 

Lisa: that the house cleaner was doing every other week. I didn’t have to do every other week. Now, the bathrooms, they tend to get dirty every week. Cause apparently I don’t do as good of a job as she does that. It makes it two weeks.

And I like to vacuum every week, but dusting, you can go a full seven weeks before you even notice the dust and then it’s unbearable. And so you can dust like every two months, 

Tami: right? Or you could say, Hey, it would be fun four year old, put these socks on your hands and let them do it really imperfectly.

Lisa: Yep. 

Tami: Once a week and then maybe at the two month Mark, you’re like, okay, really? I need to do that. What is the one time to start over? But I love this idea of delegation and teaching. And finally, one of the things finally feeling relaxed and. Like I got this, like, I feel like that’s one thing that really helps people relax, is feeling like, ah, okay, I can do this.

Lisa: One of the things I say and people really tend to glom onto is you do realize there are no organizing police, right? Like, no one’s coming in your house and they’re going to walk through and go, Oh my gosh, you know what, if you really would have finished this and you’re looking for this, you walk through your house and you see every single thing that is undone.

But when you go in your family member’s house or your best friend’s house, you don’t see anything that’s undone, but you feel like when they come in your house, they do it. First of all, nobody’s going in anybody’s houses. So feel free, get it done. But nobody’s noticing that you’re so much harder on yourself than anybody else’s 

Tami: give 

Lisa: yourself.

Grace. And I like to put all of my energy into my bedroom, my bathroom, my closet. Because that’s where I live. And so you have one bathroom, Tammy, so it’d be your one bathroom, your closet, your bedroom. I am in control of that space. I’m an adult woman. and that is the only space in my house truly in control of.

I tell you what right now, if I walked downstairs, the family room and it is not perfect, it is never, it’s only purpose when the housekeeper’s here. It’s not even perfect when I do it. And I am fine with that. Because my bedroom is the way I want it to be, find one space in your house that you are in control of and have that be the way you want it.

and have that be good enough, like at the end of the day, that is good enough. 

Tami: okay, we get stop here because everybody’s like, good enough. I’m going to have to work. I’m going to have to work on my good enough skills. That’s a hard one to work on, right? Yeah. Okay. So how long ago did you leave the classroom?

Like, tell me a little bit more, cause I need to know like, Almost 10 years for me. 

Lisa: Yeah. So it was eight and a half years. It was the day before winter break, 2011. And I had to stay after for some teacher meeting that was not necessary. It could have been some other time and my kids needed me at home and I couldn’t be at home.

And it was a serious thing I needed to be home for. The worst thing was after that teacher meeting, my administrator kept me back and proceeded to tell me what a bad teacher I am. And how bad I was at my job and I was 39 years old. And I finally was to the point where I was like, you know what? I’m not a bad teacher.

I am a good teacher. I’ve been doing this for 18 months to the detriment of everything else in my life, my house, my marriage, my kids, everything is gone. Second place to this school job. And you’re telling me that this school chop I’m not good at. And I thought, you know what? I’m going to wake up 10 years from now.

My kids are going to be raised. I will not have been the mother I wanted to be, and I will have done what given my whole life to this school job where this administrator thinks I’m not a good job. I thought, if I’m failing at teaching fine, somebody else can step in January and become the teacher.

And I’m going to be the mom. I want to be. Even if that means we go into more debt. One of the benefits of being gen X is we have credit. So I had credit cards and so I use them and I quit my job and I started organize three 65, January 1st of 2012. My house was in the worst shape it has ever been in. I was at the most disorganized I’ve ever been.

I was at the lowest point of my entire life. And I was like, for the rest of my life, the one thing I’m uniquely created to do is talk about organizing. I have no idea. How we’ll make money at this or what I will do. I just know that I could talk about organizing for the rest of my life and I will figure it out and I will become a better mom and I will be there for my 

Tami: kids.

That is incredible. I was, I loved teaching. I was great at it, but what I didn’t love was that they were asking me to do stuff that. Um, I thought it was unreasonable because I’m like, you don’t, I’m a human being, Because here’s the thing. I didn’t become a teacher until I was 33. So it was my second career.

So my principal, my first year, my principal, when I was a first year teacher kept asking me to do stuff. And I was like, get out of my room. I am busy trying to learn how to do this job. Quit asking me to do extra stuff. And she goes, but you’re a new teacher. And I was like, But I’m also a grown woman.

I’m not 23 

Lisa: out of my room. 

Tami: Go ask somebody who has a hard time saying no. And she was like, why? She’s like, I don’t know if you are the best teacher or the worst teacher. Like I am the person that has the best boundaries get out of my room. I need to figure out how to do this job. And I also learned the more self care I applied to any job I’m doing the better I do it.

So that brings me to my question, which is. How does self care affect your work as a speaker, as an organizer, as an adult educator, as a entrepreneur? Like how do you take care of yourself? So you can wear all the hats because you are running like an empire of organizing. I 

Lisa: love this question because, um, I don’t know.

I was raised with a lot of guilt and a lot of perfection, and so I never feel like I’m good enough. Or, uh, like often it’ll be like seven o’clock at night and I’ll be talking to my husband and I’ll say, all right, it’s seven o’clock at night. I could go work for more and more hour, but I really want to take a bath and work on my puzzle.

And he’s like, it’s seven o’clock at night. Go do the puzzle. I’m like, yeah, but I could work till eight. Like in my mind. And I also think it’s the American woman is like this, that we have work and then we have household and then we have parenting and then we’re allowed to have just this little, teeny, tiny bit of self care and like a bath counts that counts it’s okay.

For years, that was myself. It was one 15 minute bath. And now I’ve added like an hour of puzzling to that. And I feel so guilty. Doing a jigsaw puzzle on a Tuesday night. And now I’m to the point where I’m like, my kids are raised, my house is good enough. Yes. There are dishes. I really don’t care.

I’m going to go upstairs. I’m going to draw the bath. I’m going to do the puzzle. And I’m going to listen to a podcast or I’m going to watch TV, or I’m going to read a book. And 

Tami: I still today at the 

Lisa: age of 48 go, no, it’s okay. It’s five 30. You’re allowed to quit working. Like I have to tell myself I’m allowed to quit working.

I just think it’s something that we innately have in us. 

Tami: I don’t know, it’s innately. I think it might be very cultural. I think it might be. I think it’s like that thing where you’re like, here is your rattle and here is your responsibility to take care of other people. And I am also gen X. I just turned 50 in March.

And one of the things that, and I grew up in California, so I think there is actually cultural differences as we go through the States and through the ages. So my mom, uh, She very much said this to me. Don’t do what I did. And I was like, Oh yeah. Cause that doesn’t look that look like Sandy, that doesn’t look very fun.

I don’t want to eat that shit sandwich. I’m going to try not to. But, so it was interesting that she was like, don’t do what I did, but there was no rad, no roadmap to do it differently. Instantly feel like I’m rubbing up against. Culture, which I am 100% guilt-free self care. So in 2016 I interviewed a hundred women and I said, where’s it going?

where’s it not going? blah, blah, blah. What’s your big, deep, dark secret. And I super majority of people said it’s selfish. And I was like, girl knocked me over with a feather because yeah, it’s not in my mind. It’s not selfish because if my family of three is a stool. We had to take care of all three legs or the T or the stool falls down.

Lisa: Yeah. 

Tami: There’s nothing more annoying than that. The wobbly table, because one of the legs is all wonky. So if we, you guys have people in your family, if there’s a wonky leg on your table, everybody suffers. So it’s actually, here we go. Here’s the twist. It’s actually beneficial to your, the family that the mom Peggy taken care of and the dad peg is taken care of.

And the kids when everybody’s needs are yeah. Oh my God. Everyone’s needs are met and we’re stronger together. 

Lisa: Yeah, and my kids are 19 and 20 and I realized that a lot of, now I want to be an independent business owner and travel and do all that, these things. But I have conditioned my family that I’m a stay at home mom.

So part of it is the conditioning that I created because I love being a stay at home. Mom. I love it. I love creating our household and being the heart of the home and being available for all these things. But then as the work gets in the way I am primarily a stay at home mom and the work is secondary.

And now as the work is becoming equal or in some cases, the work is becoming more of a priority. It’s not received as well. 

Tami: I hear you. And I’m hopeful. I will say, I hear you. And I’m hopeful. Okay. So what did you learn about self care in the seventies and eighties from your folks in the Midwest?

Lisa: Interesting. So my family on both sides to have owned their own businesses all the way back. So my father was a salesman and then he, um, was a partner in his company. My mom owned her own company that she ran out of. The basement started, um, ended up in 26 States before she sold it. So I watched my mom was an entrepreneur and my parents would go to country clubs and my dad would play golf.

And my mom was in the junior league and she was part of a lot of, um, Organizations. And so 

Tami: I guess 

Lisa: for self care, my mom would spend money on her nails and on her hair and nice clothing. She always looked very put together. I guess that’s what I would see is self care, but my parents worked morning till night, either socially or, um, they didn’t just sit around the house and read a book.

Like there was no just sitting around, they were out doing stuff all of the time. And when I think of self care, I personally think of time where I get. To be alone with my thoughts. Cause I’m a thinker and I like to be visionary and I like to create things. And so I love, just listening podcasts and taking a walk or literally spending an hour, just rabbit trailing on the computer and getting off all new ideas.

I, that, to me, he is self care. I never see saw my parents doing that. 

Tami: Yeah, I, there was a pattern in our house, which was, you only really got to rest when you were sick. I swear. Every time something came through school, everyone in the family would get it. You take a few days off. Cause that could be your like, get better time.

You never got all the way better, but you got back up and you repeated the cycle. 

Lisa: That’s interesting. Cause my mom was always sick on Christmas day. Like for years in a row, like on Christmas, she would be on the couch while we were opening up all the presents that she had wrapped in different wrapping paper.

And there’s like presence of bum presence, but she was sick always at Christmas time. So made that was so that she could relax. Oh my gosh. That is amazing. 

Tami: Isn’t it? Bonkers? And. And I repeated that cycle. So I worked in politics for a decade before I became a teacher, but I was like the one thing I can say that there was a through line, there was two, three lines through my careers and that is, I want to make the world a better place for women and kids.

And I’d like to burn out, get better burnout, get better, get back. Oh, wow. And I find that met people who weren’t on that roller coaster of burnout. I was like, who are you guys in? What is the secret? And it came down to. Claiming downtime. And it came down to having really firm time boundaries around work.

And I was like, you can do that. What will you do with all your stuff spare time? And it turns out I like to lay in a hammock and read a book. I’ve read. I have it’s August 6th and I have read 85 books this year. 

Lisa: Congratulations. Thank you. 

Tami: I read and I just started keeping track last year, I read over 140 books last year, because I was like, Oh, when I’m not constantly doing for everyone else, I can fill my brain.

So nobody ever has to read a book again. I can just, that’s incredible. Exactly. Okay. So how so puzzles early ending time, bath girls speaking my language. What else do you do for self care? 

Lisa: I okay. So this is maybe not good for my body, but at the end of the day, cause I work for, even though I have a warehouse and in place I work from home and so I’ll get in the car and I drive.

Then I get Culver’s onion rings, which are the absolute best. And I listen to eighties, music really loud in the car. 

Tami: Okay. I just saw, I was looking at your Instagram stories today about the onion rings and I was like, what it makes these onion rings so special. What’s my gosh, 

Lisa: they’re hot. And they’re salty.

They’re hot and they make them, so you have you order them and then you pull ahead. So they come out piping hot. 

Tami: Okay, 

Lisa: they’re terrible for you physically, but I really need to find it, but it’s the drive. It’s the drive and the music and the again, alone in my car. And if the music is up too loud, my gods become so crystal clear it’s.

It’s unusual. 

Tami: I think it sounds like a meditation to be perfectly honest, but you do a transition. It sounds like you’re like, I work really hard at home during the day. And then I end my working day. So it’s like, you’re commuting. It’s the weird thing about commuting when you work at home. I’m in my laundry room right now.

So one of the things I started to do for my commute was my kids’ school is a little bit over a mile from our house. So I walk her to school and walk, take a walk around the Capitol. Cause I live near the Capitol in California and then I come home. I clock five miles on my feet and then I go to work.

Lisa: See, that one would be a healthier self care for me. I have started walking in the morning, so that’s good, but I have not eliminated the Culver’s. 

Tami: And you know what I say, go for it. I love me a barbecue potato chip and any, a French fry and those onion rings. Sound delicious. 

Lisa: My cholesterol numbers are still good.

so far so good. 

Tami: Exactly. I’m here for it. Okay. So where do you think your self care is going well? And what could use a little bit more attention? 

Lisa: So I think what’s going is that I have a lot of different self care that I’m doing now and things that could be a little bit different. Um, I think getting more firm with my shutdown time, like all my employees stop at four 30, but I don’t stop at four 30.

I usually go later into the day and I obviously work on the weekends. Um, so just finding a better stopping day or having days where I don’t do any work at all, which I don’t really do that yet. 


Tami: I have to say, no, I not. Here’s why? Because I can tell you’re super excited about your work. I work part time it’s because I have a little kid who’s like, Oh no, mama, you, we are doing a thing.

Like I’m constantly playing board games in the middle of the day. let’s not forget reading in the hammock, all that, but I tell you what. I wake up most days around four o’clock in the morning. And my brain’s like, so anyway, we’re going to get up and we’re going to do the thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lisa: All right. 

Tami: It’s exciting when you love your work, 

Lisa: it’s exciting. And as it’s growing, employing people and hiring more people and placing orders and impacting lives, like it is fun for me. It is really fun for me. I don’t feel like work is work hardly ever. And if it is, I’m like, we’re not doing that kind of anymore.

Like if there’s 

Tami: right. That. Oh, Katie it’s. At minute 30, we have a freezing. 

Lisa: I don’t think I’m dreading my back yet. 

Tami: Yep. You’re back. Yes. 

Lisa: Um, so if I find something is not working in my schedule or I see it on my calendar and I keep moving it further and further down, I will fulfill that obligation. And then I will.

Say we’re not doing that anymore. Like, whatever it is, I figure out what the thing is. And I say, my energy, isn’t good for that. So we’re not going to grow the company in that direction, or we’re not going to use that kind of an engagement to grow the brand. 

Tami: Okay. And layman’s language because you just used some serious business speak there, which is that thing.

Made me feel like poop and not want to do it. So I’m going to, I am going to finish my obligation cause I am a gal that falls through, but I’m also gonna make a note. I don’t ever need to say yes to that again. You guys, you all need to take note of every activity. So one of the things I do at the end of every year is I look at my calendar and I look back from January one all the way.

And I decide if I was going to put that thing on my calendar again, what I want to do it. I got to tell you, Lisa. I’ve been doing this for years. And I have very few things that I repeat because I also will be like, someone’s going to ask you to do this thing. This is what you’re going to, I write this in my calendar.

This is how you’re going to say no. P S you guys remember that? I have the November challenge where I teach you to how to say no. So you can say yes when it matters coming in November, um, What’s your morning routine. 

Lisa: Okay. So it’s, it was terrible, but because of the pandemic, all of our structures and our routines got exploded.

And I feel that the number one thing that my audience is struggling with is the fact that their structures and their routines are gone. And even though I work from home, mine 

Tami: got imploded 

Lisa: as well, because, I have other people in the house or my business plans got imploded. And so normally.

I would get up at seven 15, I would get ready. I would start work at eight. That was my morning routine. And the morning routine is really the only routine that you’re in control of that your family doesn’t derail as much. So proud of myself for the last time. Almost two weeks, I’ve been getting up at six 30.

And going for a walk and then getting ready and actually starting my day at eight 30 and no meetings until nine. 

Tami: I am loving it. 

Lisa: Oh my gosh. I am loving it so much. 

Tami: What’s the, one of the benefits that you can say about this new routine? 

Lisa: So before I would get up and I would listen to a podcast while I was getting ready, but I was so ready before my day.

Now, when I go walking at six 30, I have a friend who lives in the United Kingdom and she Vox has me on this app called Voxer. So I listened to her Vox. And then I talk back to her. We’re both business owners. And then I’ll start a podcast or I’ll listen to other boxers or all even like, watch my Instagram stories as I’m walking around my neighborhood.

And when I get home, I then relax and there’s one news app I like, and I read the news stories for the day and then I get in the shower. And by the time I get in the shower, it’s the same time I would have gotten in the shower, but I’ve already gotten so much thinking time done. It’s so much connection done and I love it.


Tami: it incredible. I am a proponent of the morning routine and two years ago I added in that walking piece because I had this story, Oh, I don’t have time. I only have this limited time to work loud, blah, blah. But I was like, but I did an experiment, Lisa. Cause my daughter was going to summer school.

It was a 20 minute walk away. So I would have a 20 minute there and a 20 minute back and then I had four hours to work and I’d have to pick her up or my husband would pick her up. And so I just decided I’m going to do it five days a week for six weeks and see what changes. And I dare to say people hashtag morning miles will change ever re thing, because I found like my imposter syndrome went away because I was like, what?

Now? It’s like, I know this from working with students with ADHD. If they exercise straight away in the morning, a lot of times they’re like, Oh my, I can get. To work now because I’ve already done the hard work in the body. So I was like, let me test it out for my kid and myself and see how it goes. And it changed everything.

And I was like, how am I? Like, how am I able to start a podcast now? How am I able to come home? Put my butt in the chair, work for four hours, get more done in those four hours than I would in a regular, like six to eight hour day. I was like clarity and focus comes with exercise. They really need a rebrand on the exercise.

It’s not, it’s like the secret to life. 

Lisa: Aye. Aye. Also it’s done two other things for me. One it’s helped me sleep better at night. Because I’m more tired. Cause literally I would only walk 3000 steps. It’s a day people sometimes only a thousand. It was pathetic. So now I’m getting closer to 10,000, which is great.

Think I feel better about myself, but also in order for me to do it in the morning and to do it without worrying about it, I have to write down exactly what I’m doing at work the next day. And I do it on an index card by hour. So when I get it done and as I’m doing my shower, I’m like, it’s okay. You’ve already played.

It’s okay. You’ve already planned your day. So when I have the coffee and I sit down and it’s. 30. 

Tami: I literally just bust through 

Lisa: my whole list now. And then at the end of the day, I make my list for the next day. I have a lot less waste time, a lot less. I’ll figure that out in the morning, you have to the night before I am just really enjoying it.

Tami: I also think I was at the right 

Lisa: phase of my business to do it as well. And the rate pays in my life to do it. And, climatically, I think a walk in the afternoon is going to be better in the fall as far as, um, temperature wise, but I think I’ll do something different and still have that morning routine time.

Tami: Yes. And I will just say, as a confirmed morning exerciser, some way I live in California, so I can literally walk 365 days a year. However, sometimes it’s too hot here. So I will just, literally, I will walk laps in my house. I live in an 1100 square foot house. I open all the doors and I walk around like rain man, like where to go.

Like I’m walking a path in my house and I have a tiny trampoline. Do you know, what’s exciting do to do I feel like a full on senior citizen, but I’m like, you know what, I am walking off, whatever I need to walk off. And like you, when I like, I go through all of my resistance and all of my avoidance while I’m on my walk, like all the stories I tell about, I don’t have time or this was then I just get it out in my head, on my walk.

And when I get home and in my chair, I’m totally ready to work. 

Lisa: Yep. 

Tami: And I like my family more, I’m not gonna lie. It’s a thing. And we, and so again, going back to the stool analogy, like I, every one of my house practices, self care, so like I’m on breakfast, my husband’s walking out the door and he’s like, I’ll be back.

I’m doing a walk and we work together to make it happen. And since we’re all at home, let’s try to work together to make it happen. Okay. So last two questions before we get to the speed round, the quickfire questions. So what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online?

Lisa: What else do I want people to know about me? Um, so I’m not a perfectionist. I’m funny. Um, you’ll feel better about yourself. If you listen to the organized three 65 podcasts, even if you don’t get organized because you’ll, your brain will start to absorb some of the organizing ideas. You don’t, I am not a Pinterest organizer.

I’m a functional organizer and it really is a self development podcast. More than a here’s the how to, of doing things. That’s more in the courses. And how can people find me? I have the organized three 65 podcasts organized three 60 five.com is the website. And I’m organized three 65 everywhere on social media.

If you actually want me, it’s the Instagram Insta stories. That’s where I personally am. 

Tami: I, and I have to say I’m a huge proponent of the stories. Um, I would love. I have to say this, I run coaching groups. And, uh, one of the weeks somebody we sent, brought up getting organized and we were all sitting there.

There’s 10 of us and we’re all sitting there talking and somebody brought you up. And I was like, Oh my God, I love her stuff. And blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. And so when your team reached out to say, Hey, would you like to interview Lisa for our new book? I was like, Hey, you guys, you know what happened?

So you have a little army of my people are like, shut up. You’re going to talk to Lisa from organize three 65. What is even happening? And I’m like, we’re doing the thing. We’re going to find out about her self care and they are thrilled. 

Lisa: Yay. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Okay. So quickfire, uh, one gen X or two, and next the, these, this was inspired by, uh, James Lipton’s questions from inside the actor’s studio.

So Lisa, are you ready for the quickfire challenge? Hope Okay. What is your Enneagram? 

Lisa: I’m a three. 

Tami: Do you wing four or wing two or do you know? 

Lisa: I’m not very detail oriented, so I don’t know for sure. But I don’t remember that part of it. 

Tami: Okay. But you’re like, I just, uh, you just you’re like I get shit done.

Okay. You’re an extrovert. I will, I’ve 

Lisa: heard him. 

Tami: Do you know your Myers-Briggs? 

Lisa: Yeah, I am an E N T J 

Tami: E N T J. Okay. I’m an inf J I knew you were an E and a J I could figure that out. My one 

Lisa: friend is like, you’re the most ENT, J E N TJ. There is. Cause I really like talking about different political issues and I’m like, but we need the solution.

She’s like, Lisa, we haven’t even defined the problem yet. We’re over here in defining the problem. I’m like, let me know when we need the solution. I already have ideas. 

Tami: Okay. So is strategic one of your strengths on the strengths 

Lisa: finder? 

Tami: Yes. People are like, how do you 

Lisa: do that? Dziedzic learner her 

Tami: strategic empathy and activator.

I’m like, just 

Lisa: pick, I don’t remember the other ones, but definitely strategic. Definitely learner can’t remember what the other options are. 

Tami: I don’t know. I’ll just tell you that we have a lot in common. Okay. So Gretchen Rubin 

Lisa: for tensioner. 

Tami: Hey Jen exer. So we do right. We’re like, you’re not the boss of me, dude.

Yes, me convince me. Okay. Your love language. 

Lisa: I’m words of affirmation. 

Tami: Me too, but what is your secondary and what is your spouses? Cause 

Lisa: I like my spouses is quality time. Okay. And my secondary 

Tami: would 

Lisa: probably be gifts and I’m looking at my strengths finder right now. Cause we have our whole team doing this.

Oh that’s. So though I am achiever learner significance, competition and focus. 

Tami: So good. 

Lisa: Does it say what? My secondary, Oh, my secondary is gifts. Yeah. I’m words of affirmation, secondary as gifts. 

Tami: Okay. What’s the most significant gift anyone’s ever given you? 

Lisa: Um, okay. So it’s something I bought myself.

Tami: Terrific. I love when people, um, hi, that’s good self care. You’re like, you don’t get mad. My knee. What is it? 

Lisa: Um, so it’s this ring. And it is a Sapphire custom-made ring by Greg’s uncle is a jeweler. So he actually, it’s a unique, one of a kind ring. Uh, my necklace isn’t I bought this while I was waiting for the ring to be done by the same jeweler.

Um, my dad always bought my mom jewelry for everything, and my husband does not do that. And I love bubbles. Um, in my family, there’s a lot of jewelry. My great grandfather was a purser on a ship. So we have all this amazing jewelry that’s been handed down. And when we achieved a significant goal in the business, I ordered the ring.

To commemorate. 

Tami: Why are you telling me all these things that I’m getting chills? So one of the things that I work with my clients on is, through smart goals, but I have made it less corporate and more about self care. And the last one is treat yourself like, how are you going to celebrate? And people struggle.

Sounds like I really need to connect with the gift people in the world to help me. Help others who don’t have that gift girl. I was in here this morning and I’m like, I’m going to buy a waterproof Bluetooth speaker for my shower to celebrate my last launch. Yes. And I’m going to end the color I want because I can, 

Lisa: Green was expensive. I think it was $1,400. And the reason I say that is because I spent $1,400 on my credit card every month. On stuff that I won’t have a year from now, but I will have this ring for the rest of my life. And I will remember that. And then when I get to, I wear these fake little diamond hoop things and it’s on my vision board.

When I achieve this next significant thing, I will have real diamond earrings. So I love jewelry. It’s going to last forever. I don’t wear fake jewelry. I wear a real jewelry. And so each of my things that I buy are significant and some yeah. Way and they’re expensive, but they’re not outrageous. 

Tami: But also one of the things I’m hearing you say and correct me if I wrong is this is important to me.

So I’m making it happen. I’m celebrating my accomplishments in a way that’s really the scratch that itch of that happening. So my secondary, uh, love language is. Um, acts of service. I changed all the names. It’s w it’s gold stars, uh, getting a, uh, in the seats. You know what I mean? It’s like I ran in, so I was trying to think of the real name.

I like it service. So like, for me, if you want, if 

Lisa: people want a housecleaning house cleaning the car, getting 

Tami: the car wash, getting a detail, the whole shebang, Somebody’s making you like the most delicious meal. Oh my God, all of that. So that’s where I’m like, Ooh, what are the services? When we can start interacting with people again?

What shall I do? Oh, I get monthly massages. I scheduled them again. I started 

Lisa: that. I started that this year. Oh, it’s heavenly. 

Tami: Okay. I get a massage every last Tuesday of every month, except during a pandemic. And I’ve done it for a decade and people are like, but how do you know you’re going to need a massage?

I’m like, Dude. I always need a massage. Yeah. Yeah. So I schedule my stuff out, like by the year haircuts eyebrows, 

Lisa: so organized Tammy 

Tami: it’s because I hate making decisions more than 

Lisa: once. 

Tami: I’m like, I don’t want to waste my decision making on whether or not I should get a bang trim. I know my hair grows.

I know how long it takes. I mean, I am cutting my own hair at this point. However, I also have myself on a schedule where I’m like, Oh, need a little bang trim. Okay. Okay. Now 

Lisa: here’s where Ohio can shine because, uh, I’m getting my nails done and my hair done. And I’m still getting my massages in California.

You’re still shut down. Sorry. But Ohio has so few benefits. I just have to no out of my house. No, for real. You 

Tami: also had the governor who straight out of the gate. Our governor did too, but we also have 40 mill, young people. Yeah. People and some of them 

Lisa: shut it down. 

Tami: Are entitled poops who are not following the rules.

Lisa: That’s in Ohio 

Tami: too, 

Lisa: unless we 

Tami: have those in place. And that really bothers me. But Lisa, you’re a prolific reader. I love watching you on good reads. I’m like, let me see all of the things that Lisa’s reading. So this is going to be, I know a challenge for you. Feel free to add more than one, but what was your favorite last book that you read?

Lisa: Right now I am listening to Jack Canfield’s success principles. I’m loving that. And I have bought the workbook to go with it. So I’m going to listen to it all the way through, and then I’m going to listen to it and do the workbook one chapter a week. Um, I am a learner like I’m a learner. I’m a questioner.

I always want to know more. no more. I love 

Tami: it. I love it. Okay. What is your favorite book? Of all time. 

Lisa: So favorite book of all time is generations by Neil, uh, Neil Strauss and William Howard, or it’s William Howe and Neil stress. Those are the words, I don’t know what the order is. It’s a thick book.

It is hard to find it is not on audible. Um, and it is all about how there are. Four different primary generation types and they repeat over and over again every 80 years. So each is a 20 year span and that they have similar care. So like it’s the best questioner. So the baby boomer generation is the same as the babies that are being born now.

So the kids that are zero to 20 are the same archetype as the 80 to 100 year olds right now. And it’s just fascinating to me that we keep repeating the same cycles over and over again, and these different archetypes of generations. 

Tami: But I love it because, so I recently read a Dale Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people.

And it was published in like the thirties and. Sure. There are a few like old fashioned turns of phrases and all that, but what it did, what it really illuminated is humans are humans are humans and humans act to this way. It’s like, In a way, you’re like, why don’t we, why don’t we pay closer attention so we can learn this stuff, but here we are.

Lisa: and also if you take that in any business you’re in or whatever, your unique gifting and calling is that you’re going to go into, you are going to experience all generations. Baby boomers, look at the world differently than gen X, then millennials than gen Z. And those are the four different generations.

And when you were talking about organizing your stuff, millennials, baby boomers are maximalists. Gen millennials are minimalists, gen X are nobody cares. And there’s 

Tami: like 19 of us anyway. 

Lisa: So whatever, we’ll just skip over them, but we are in between. And so not everybody looks at their stuff the exact same way.

That’s why there is no one right answer because we all experiencing. Things differently because baby boomers had to work so hard to earn that money. And things were really hard to get in the eighties. I mean, my parents didn’t do it, but some parents stood in line for their kids to get a cabbage patch doll.

And then you got the cabbage patch doll 

Tami: or the garbage pail kids 

Lisa: or any of those things that was so hard. The beanie babies that you could get from the McDonald’s drive through 

Tami: any of it. But 

Lisa: yes, and getting everything in the bag. 

Tami: But yes. 

Lisa: So now, like, it’s like, we can get it on Amazon. Like before this interview, I ordered something that’ll be here probably before I’m off of this interview.

So of course we’re like, we don’t need to hold onto stuff because it’s so easy to get it now. Um, so they’re, the ebbs and flows are generational. 

Tami: I know. And it’s. so fascinating. And so we, in my life coaching certification program, I actually went through UC Davis, which is, one of the major universities here in California and we had a generation’s talk.

And I will tell you that. Just so we’re clear, we all sat in our own generations and we could pick where we sat, but like all the gen X kids were at one table and all the boomers were at another because we annoyed the shit out of each other with how we move through the world. And I was like, yes, I’m totally not talking to you guys.

I’m talking to millennials and I’m talking to gen X people, anybody else who’s listening? And you like it. Cool. We must be an outlier for your people. But I was like, that’s, there’s reasons that. What we say and how we say it resonates with people because we have those through lines of our generation. And I’m going to get that book now.

So wait generations by last 

Lisa: week, Neil Strauss and William Howe or it’s Neil Howe and William Strauss. 

Tami: Okay. I will follow 

Lisa: and Strauss. 

Tami: Oh. And by the way, I love when people tell me that about stuff that I’ve never heard of. Cause I’m like, Oh, here we go. Okay. What’s your favorite personal development book?

Lisa: Pay for personal development book? Um, I like Brendon Burchard’s book. I just read it. I think it’s a great book with yellow letters on it. Something habits that one’s really good. There was another one, You just read, um,

And I was like the whole entire book. I was like, Oh my gosh, that book is just amazing. I’ll have to find it and get back to you. I’m not as good as like, um, so I’ve read the Bible five times. I could tell you everything that’s in the Bible, but I can’t tell you the chapter. And first I’m not good at that.

Tami: No, I hear you. And you’re also like, if I can look it up, why am I going to keep it in my brain 

Lisa: at night 

Tami: now I hear you. And so I also, I do follow you on, um, good reads. So I know that you 

Lisa: do a lot of they’re in 

Tami: there. you also do a lot of reading around productivity. And systems is my actual word of the year, this year, because I have come up against where I’m like, Oh, You, I find that I have to tune up my systems and then when you’re in business, you’re like, I didn’t even know I needed a system for that thing.

Apparently I need a system for people 

Lisa: for that too. Yeah. So like to tune up my people. Oh, you like a system have, if you run that, 

Tami: uh, hello, uh, 

Lisa: the house million million dollar habits by Brian Tracy. Amazing book million dollar habits by Brian, Tracy. 

Tami: I’m writing this on my desk because, um, I like to keep notes actually on my desk, because then I looked down, I’m like, why are there scribbles all over my desk?

And it reminds me, and then I cleaned them off as it goes. Okay. You already said that your favorite social media is Instagram stories. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Tami: Because you have people that help you with all of your stuff, 

Lisa: but that is where you are. 

Tami: What is it that you love about stories? And are you going to try reels?

Lisa: Okay. um, I’m not, I just saw the reels yesterday. Of course. I think they just came out yesterday. 

Tami: They did, and I have not, I started to try it and I was like, 

Lisa: okay, this is too much. I don’t even do the filters to people. Like, I’m just like, I’m just practical. You get what you get. I don’t really try to.

Sugar-coated, what I like 

Tami: Insta stories is because it’s just 

Lisa: my own self curated reality TV show was literally in my bath. Now this is so fun. I dry my bath. And then I prop up my phone on and I start with story number one, and they’ll just cascade right through. And like for 15 minutes, I get to watch all these people and see what my friends that don’t even know who I am are doing throughout their day.

I just find it so fascinating. And the other thing I love to do on Instastories is follow couples. So I follow Sarah Blakely of Spanx, but I also follow Jesse Itzler, which is her husband who has his own business as well. And I love watching them independently and I love watching them talk to each other on stories.

I just find it so fascinating. 

Tami: It’s funny as I do that too, I follow Jasmine star and her husband. And is that you’re seeing what you’re seeing the same event through different lenses. It’s I think it’s the industry. Interesting. And I also love. Um, that people have their guard down more and I’ve been able to connect with like big people.

I just air quoted big people. people who have a lot of followers, I’m going to tell you can become everyone’s best friend and Instagram 

Lisa: stories, Ken. And I even I’ll be like, Oh, should I have shared that? I’m like, ah, it’s gone in 24 hours. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 

Tami: Like if you want to see.

Some really bad hair. you’ll see some bad hair and Insta stories. Okay. Show, I know I read it like that, but I like to judge this one up with past present or future, meaning that you are like, Oh my God, I have this idea for this TV show and I want to hear your audience about it. Oh, 

Lisa: okay. So do 

Tami: TV, 

Lisa: Madam secretary, 110%.

I love that show with . 

Tami: Yes. I love it. 

Lisa: Do you want to know why? I love it? I love it because she is powerful yet feminine. She is quiet. She’s not like, yeah, I’ve got to do this. Like, she’s just like, we’ll bomb you then. And she goes, and you see her and her husband in her place. She’s like, Oh, should I not have taken the job as secretary of state?

She like, is this going to ruin our love life? 

Tami: And I’m just like, yes, like that is what 

Lisa: women are struggling with. Like, Oh, should I not own this company, Greg? Because and that’s how I feel. And yet she just looks amazingly great yet. She’s a good mom and she’s missing big events. Cause she’s like, Solving world peace yet she’s on the phone with them and I’m like, 

Tami: you 

Lisa: can’t, this is what a modern day woman.

It looks like to me. I know it’s fake, but anyway, I really love that show, 

Tami: but if we can see it, we can be it. yeah, I don’t want to be secretary of state, but I do not to be, I 

Lisa: want to have a connector for a woman 

Tami: and a powerful one. 

Lisa: Yes. Yes, a powerful feminine woman is what I want to be. And then my future TV show a picture like super nanny for your paper.

So like a wrapped RV that says the paper solution and I go into people’s houses and I helping get their paper in order. 

Tami: Do we have any TV? I know. I was like, I’m all in. 

Lisa: Yes. Yes. And I want to try, I mean, I just want to travel. I’m dying to travel. Even before the pandemic. Totally. But I’m 

Tami: also like, but if you’re driving an RV around the country doing this, 

Lisa: you can totally do it.

Tami: Have you, but have you started watching, um, it’s called hot mess on 

Lisa: HGTV? No, her Cassandra. 

Tami: Yes, of course. You know her, I was flipping through the channels that I saw. I was like the Clutterbuck lady from YouTube. She’s 

Lisa: great. She’s so great. Yeah. HGTV is doing that with her, 

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: So then I also go, do I want to do that or do I want to just self produce it?

I mean, obviously you could do Netflix, you could do Amazon prime or you could just become independent and put it on Roku, Or you 

Tami: could do it on YouTube and get sponsors. Oh, you could do it on Patrion 

Lisa: and people can. 

Tami: Okay. We’re just having, we’re having like ideas popping 

Lisa: out of our questioners together.

I don’t know what to tell you. This is going to happen. 

Tami: I’m like it totally can happen. Did you ever, okay. Do you watch the office? 

Lisa: Yes, I have. I don’t watch it religiously. 

Tami: Okay. What was a long way of saying Jenna Fisher? Pam on the office wrote a book called the actors way, the 

Lisa: actors, 

Tami: and, um, she basically writes.

A book on how to be an actor. And one of the things she says is don’t wait around for other people to choose you. Do your work every day, right? Every day, produce every day and put your shit out because we have the tools, I just saved you from having to read a really good book.

And you should totally do this show because it’s needed. 

Lisa: Yeah, it’s just it’s I know it’s just a timing thing. I know it’s going to happen. I just don’t know when or how, but I know it will happen. 

Tami: I just had this flash of a vision that I’ll share with you, your children. Okay. I can’t believe I said it like that, but the vision I had is that your children are going to help produce the show.

Lisa: I believe it. 

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: Like, they’ll get like the technical bat. 

Tami: They’ll do like the. Behind the scenes stuff. 

Lisa: My son just finished a two year degree in audio production and engineering.

Okay. I 

Tami: literally didn’t know that, but why did I get that hit 

Lisa: of like, they don’t know, but I love it and I’m writing it down. 

Tami: Okay. And when you start the show, you can come back and we can do this again. It can be like, Oh my God, this totally doing that. And 

Lisa: we don’t have, I just come to California. 

Tami: Yes.

I’ve been to California. 

Lisa: Yes. My parents used to have a place in Palm Springs. It was heavenly. Okay. No 

Tami: paradise. I’ve anyway, it’s funny because that’s in Southern California, I’m a Northern California native and I went to Palm Springs for the first time, three years ago for alt summit. And when we get to, and when the world gets back together, Hey, I’m re launching my 50th birthday by renting a house in Palm Springs with my friends, and I’m going to alt summit and it’s lovely there.

I will never go, 

Lisa: but it’s still lovely there. Oh, my 

Tami: God. Your folks had a place in Palm Springs. that’s fancy. 

Lisa: Yeah, they were fancy before they blew it all in their divorce. 

Tami: That was a very gen X thing for you to say.

Now I have to ask, how old were you when you 

Lisa: folks? 35, 35. 

Tami: You were, I’m sorry. You were 35. When your parents got divorced. 

Lisa: Yes. If you’d been in California, 

Tami: you’d have been 10. 

Lisa: It takes a while to do it in Ohio. 

Tami: Exactly. Also they had a lot at stake, but still okay. I am so excited about your future TV show. I can hardly stand it, 

Lisa: but I get Tammy.

Tami: This is the question that I always watched inside the actor’s studio for. I want to know what every celebrities. Favorite swear word is so Lisa Woodruff, what is your favorite swear word? 

Lisa: Shit.

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: And so I have a funny story about that. 

Tami: We all just giggled. Okay. So tell me your funny story about yourself. 

Lisa: So my mom would say that swear word, and she would say it wasn’t a swear word, but we weren’t allowed to say it. We had to say rats. Okay. 

Tami: Rats reminds me of school, house rock. So I love it. I like your mom is just like, I’m laying down the law and this is how this works at our house.

I say this, and you say that And you all went right.

I want to bring back rats. Yeah. 

Lisa: it’s really a funny word, especially the way she would say she’d go, Oh,

Tami: your mom sounds like a hoot. 

Lisa: Oh my goodness gracious. She is. 

Tami: Oh my God. Lisa, I have so enjoyed having this chat. I CA I’m producing. I’m not a producer, but I wish I was. 

Lisa: And pretend 

Tami: we can totally pretend if you need any buddy, too. Um, run ideas around. I’m an idea machine, especially for other people. So we could get together on the offlines to talk about, uh, episode ideas and all that stuff for your new show that you’re going to produce.


Lisa: like a plan. I’ll let the team know. This is how they find out everything you said. What, 

Tami: where, and you’re like, I’m starting a TV show. It’s going to be great. We got to get an RV 

Lisa: for the fans. So hard to find right now cause of the pandemic. I know, 

Tami: but do you know how available they’re going to be after the pandemic?


Lisa: that right? I’ll take a used one. Yeah, 

Tami: exactly. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good luck on making the paper solution of reality TV show as well as a book and everyone go find lisa@organizethreesixtyfive.com. Find her on all the social channels and buy this book so you can create some papers solutions in your life.

And until next week, remember you matter too.


EP 66: Communication, Relationships and so much more with Dr. Gina Senarighi

EP 66: Communication, Relationships and so much more with Dr. Gina Senarighi

This week’s episode is all a conversation with someone I met online and thought – how often can I repost her content before it gets weird?

Dr. Gina Senarighi, PhD CPC is a therapist, coach, host of the Swoon podcast and author of Love More, Fight Less: Communications Skills Every Couple Needs.

We talked about how she *STOP THE PRESSES* has MET and trained with BRENE BROWN. I KNOW.

Gina is a shame resilience advocate, tends her money the way she does her garden (daily) and sets clear email boundaries.

We talk about envisioning the future you want, experimenting with action plans versus thinking and how the relationship we have with ourselves is the foundation of every other relationship.


Tami: Good morning. 

Gina: Good morning. Thank you for having me. 

Tami: Okay. 

Gina: I, we 

Tami: just had this whole conversation, as you all know, we do the pre we do the pregame and we decided to hit record finally. So Gina, can you tell my friends, who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Gina: I’m Gina center Regi. who am I? currently I am a mom of two.

Small children, a three year old and a one year old. And I live in Madison, Wisconsin, and I work with people all over the world. helping them build more intimate and deeply connected relationships. so sometimes that’s doing couples work and sometimes that’s doing, you know, solo coaching or. It used to be a lot of retreat and workshop leading, not in 2020, but doing a lot of work with people to help them nurture their relationship with themselves, which I think is what ultimately did bring me to you on Instagram is where I know I follow you the most closely because they’re your work with people and my work with people around like relating to themselves, trusting themselves, creating like.

Strong and healthy boundaries. Like all of that stuff just aligns so well, I was, I told you before we started recording that almost every morning, I’m like, Oh, there’s Tammy. And there’s like a thing that she says that’s wise, how often can I share content before my people are just like, you know, like, ah, maybe we should just work.

Tami: I’m just saying exactly this thing, because I’m always like, Oh, wait, I can’t like repost Gina every day, so I’ll try to do it like I like once a week and I’m like, Ooh, is that a lot? I hear you. Okay. So, so what do people come to you? 

Gina: For 

Tami: are they like they want help? Cause I, cause you’re you have a pocket cast called Swoon and that’s about sex.

So when you’re talking and just tell us more, tell us about your podcast. Tell us more about why people would say. Hey, Gina. I need some help. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: a lot 

Gina: of folks come stuff I like to work with the most. Let me tell you the stuff I like to work with the most is people show up and there, let’s say the relationship component, couples work.

They’re like. Goddammit. We are smart people. Who’s done a lot of self-work and somehow we keep ending up relating in these ways that are not serving us, like stuck in a conflict pattern or we’re like recreating her parents’ relationship or were more distant than we want to be. And like, we’ve tried quite a few things.

We’re like aware, we’ve read some books. We’d like, watch some things we’re thinking about it, but dang, we end up. In this spot where one or both of us isn’t really feeling fulfilled or connected or something like that. so I do a lot of like fine-tuning with people around like their communication skills, their like, like vulnerability resilience.

They’re like shame, resilience, they’re stories around, intimacy and meaningful connection. That kind of stuff. And that stuff’s beautiful. 

Tami: Cause I, it would be interesting. And somebody named Gina wrote a book. 

Gina: Oh yeah. Yeah. So I did. Yeah. I also, wrote a book. yeah, and that really kind of like outline and a lot of that stuff because the thing for me has been, you know, I was a therapist before I switched over to coaching and I therapy is super important, super duper important and all kinds of ways.

And it tends to be really healing focused. It comes out of like, a healthcare model. So it’s about illness and healing. And I just don’t have a lot of folks who are really. I mean, they’re unwell maybe, but it’s not like they’re unhealthy. they just are like really needing skills. And so, gosh, now I’m like on a tangent, but, so I kept finding that like I want, and part of it is also, I want people to have actionable steps that they’re looking at taking and trying out and experimenting with to create some change.

And so much of therapy tends to be really heady and thinking about reflecting and changing thought patterns. Totally. Again, important. I’m definitely still a part of coaching, but like, I just, I get impatient and most of my clients come to me at a point when they’re pretty impatient. They’re like, I am ready for this thing to shift.

I’m super frustrated with it or I see how it’s not serving me. I don’t want it anymore now what? Right. Like, they’re not like let’s sit and think about it too much. I want to have some action steps, even while I’m thinking about it. Right. 

Tami: Yeah. It’s interesting because I look at therapy as like swimming around in your trauma and I believe I’m a believer.

Like, you need to swim, you need to like backstroke, you need to get comfortable. You need to deal with stuff. But in my own, like I have been in and out of therapy since I was 10. yes, sexual abuse. That’s where it comes from. But what I found is, as I grew up, I was like, okay, so we’ve dealt with this part.

And what’s next. And so when I found coaching, I was like, Oh my God, it answers the question of what’s next. It helps you envision the future that you want. Now that you’ve like, but the solve on you, but the clean bandage on like your scabs getting healed, but so what do we do next? And so I love the idea and I think this.

I’m going to predict, I think there’s a big part of a lot of therapists going into the coach approach model 

Gina: where they’re like, I’ve got all the skills. yeah. And that’s some of why, you know, what helped me do this? It also helps me have really good boundaries in my work about, you know, there are certainly people who need like actual health care and medication management and sometimes hospitalization for mental health issues.

And that’s not what I. What I specialize in and having the background in it does help 

Tami: me be like, Oh, 

Gina: Hey, you need therapy in addition to coaching or first, and then come back. Right? Like we both are helpful for just about it, everyone. But sometimes there are plenty of reasons and traumas and crises in people’s lives that you want to, maybe have a more medical model there for support nothing wrong with that.

but anyway, having the training does help me kind of discern. who I can best serve and when, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, can you 

Tami: tell us more about your book? 

Gina: I love helping people have actionable steps. Like. Little tools and worksheets. I’m a big worksheet, like workbook person, myself.

I have, I mean that whole rainbow books behind me, people listening, dancing right in front of me. 

Tami: Yeah. 

Gina: All of those are, most of them are like full of like reflection, tools and things. And I really, I mean like you could, if you open them, you’ll see my written answers or my highlighted a lot of that I do personally.

and I, and because of that, I’ve generated a lot of content over the years that are like, Downloadable worksheets or things that I just send and share with my clients. And last fall, I had created all this stuff and I’ve had a lifelong goal of getting a book published by a big-name publisher. and so I’d like accumulated all these worksheets and workbooks over the over 10 years.

And I was about to have a baby and we were moving across the country. And my desktop on my computer was just full of all these little things. And I said, I. It’s coming up on 2020. I did not know what 20, 20, it would hold for all of us, but I was like, I’m either going to use it or lose it. I’m going to like, create like brand this stuff and make something out of it.

Or I’m going to, I can’t carry all this clutter into another decade. So I started clearing it off. And when I did that, I had three different publishers out of the blue, within a period of like a month, contact me and say, Hey. have you ever thought about writing a book and, you know, for people who believe about like that kind of like energetically creating space for something right.

To me, it really spoke to that idea, I got very clear about what I was going to do or not do. And, then I got some really clear feedback from the universe or from these publishing houses saying, do you want to do these things? And, two of them, weren’t a great fit, but penguin random house.

Said they wanted someone to create workbook about communication for all couples, like all kinds of diverse relationships. And that’s been a huge area of my specialization. And so I did it. and luckily for me, because I’ve been writing for so long between blogs and creating these worksheets, it was pretty well already written.

I mean, I got it at the first draft to them and within two months, which is pretty quick. 

Tami: That’s remarkable. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. I was contacted by a publisher twice this year, or like in 2020. it’s weird because 2020 feels like an eternity. So yes, it was earlier this year, but I ultimately decided I don’t want to write that kind of book.

I want to write this other kind of book. So worked with a, book coach, for a couple of months this summer. And I’ve got to start. So by the end of 2020, I’m like just, I just want to collect, cause I’ve been writing on a blog and doing stuff for also like a decade where I’m like, I’m pretty sure you have a lot to say on these 

Gina: topics.

Yeah. Go ahead. 

Tami: Right. Yeah. 

Gina: They didn’t love that because getting it out there is really the first step. You and I were talking earlier about getting our podcasts out there and, just like getting it out of thought formation onto the page or onto the desktop or whatever helps you then start to like, sift through right.

And say like, Oh, there’s a theme here. that either I knew about, or I haven’t quite put together, I mean, I just, before our call, I have these notes because I was putting together. Themes about some things that are starting to sync up, and what I’m seeing in my work over and over again. and I don’t have perfect language for it yet, but at least having this rough draft sketch note gives me something to work with.


Tami: Totally. I mean, this podcast was born out of conversations. I was having with my one on one clients over and I was like, every hour, I felt like I was having the same conversation. I was like, I have some education to do here. Let me just go ahead and share what people are saying and doing. And it’s because it’s not about one person and it’s about women.

Like that’s the through line here is like, cause I it’s weird. I haven’t had a male client yet. And so what I’m seeing is these themes repeated over and over. And I don’t know if you noticed, but in 2019 or 2016, I interviewed a hundred women about self care. Because I was like, if I’m going to put my whole coaching practice in this lane, I want to see if it’s a thing.

Ooh, it’s a thing. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Is that like, so of that a hundred women, I think 80 plus said that self care was selfish and I was like, shut up. Cause that’s not the story I tell myself. Because other people were like, no, it’s cool. I’m broken. it was like, Oh, that’s me. Right. But there was, and there were a handful of women who were like, it’s the best thing ever.

And I was like, but how did you get there? And they’re like, Oh, I lived in self care, selfish land. And then I got divorced and decided to be okay myself. 

Gina: Do people have to get 

Tami: divorced and they’re like, I don’t think so because 

Gina: yeah. Okay. tell me about this trend. Cause this is the one that these are the ones that I see I work with.

This is a lot of where I think our work really overlaps, because I didn’t work with a lot of those women coming out of. initial relationship, one longterm relationship or whatever, or a PA a long string of them who are like, fuck that. I am not doing that again. Helped me figure out how I don’t fall into that pattern again.

And, and the other time I see a lot of people is when a lot of women, most of my solo clients are women wanting to work on their relationship patterns, where their kids get to about four or five, six. and they’re suddenly like above water, a little bit with the parenting and are like, Whoa.

Again, self care seems selfish because I put my kids or my relationship or both. In front of my own like self identity, self care, all of that. And there’s this like super duper hate 

Tami: them right now. Yeah. We did do something to restore order in my house. I have a lot of clients who come here to me who are like, kids are back in school and I need to get a job.

The kids are back in school and I needed to get my confidence back so I can get it. And I’m like, I hear you. Yeah, I hear you. Because the zero to five, I call it a zero too. Full day school. So it’s really zero to first grade, like easy to go underwater because your people can really hurt themselves if you are not full on.

Gina: Totally. 

Tami: Yup. And. You can really resent your people 

Gina: who are not taking 

Tami: care of yourself and holding boundaries with everyone in the house. So I was come back to this analogy because there’s three members of my immediate family and I say, we’re a stool. And so there’s three legs. And if one of the stool legs is wonky or broken or pissed because she never gets her needs met, everyone suffers.

So it’s just like, so I like to try to turn it around, like, Like we were, we are as healthy as our 

Gina: weakest leg. 

Tami: So you got to shore up your everybody’s legs have to be short of equally so that we can all continue to work. 

Gina: Yes. Yeah. I, my quote and I think it’s actually somebody else’s quote, but I don’t know where it starts, where it started from, but just that the is that the relationship you have with yourself is the foundation for it.

Every other relationship you have. And, I see so many folks, I was just talking with a client the other day and we like, you know, she was like, she’s pregnant. And so she’s like taking special vitamins and making sure she gets enough sleep or really taking care of her body. And she was like, wait a minute, if I can do this now, because I’m just stating a human.

Why am I not doing this for myself outside of this context of being like the pregnancy will be a short period in my long history of life, I should be taking my vitamins and drinking my water and listening to my body other times too. Maybe, you know, just for myself, 

Tami: glad to witness your light bulb moment.

I know. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Interesting. Cause I. I don’t. I mean, it’s, I didn’t start with that selfish story. My story was like, if I don’t take care of myself, who’s going to do it. And so right. I mean, that’s, I feel like that’s a telling a story, but it’s also the realization of, I there’s only one me and there’s also a realization that I’m super self-aware in that, like, I’m an Enneagram one.

So when I’m not taking care of myself, I’m going to take everybody down around me. So it’s super comfortable for all of us involved. So just let me do what I need to do so that we can all live peacefully in the world. 

Gina: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. We’re finally, 

Gina: this is great. This is going to be a day long podcast.

Everyone listening? Yeah. Get a snack. 

Tami: Get your water. Gets what you need friends. Okay. So tell us last thing on the book for now. What’s it called? What is it out? 

Gina: Oh, right. It just came out, July 28th. So it’s. It’s fresh off the presses and it’s called love more fight, less communication workbook for every couple.

You can get it at Powells or your favorite indie bookstore, or really easy on Amazon. and if you love it, please leave me a 

Tami: VO. 

Gina: Cause that helps with all the algorithms of sharing it with more people. So, yeah. Yeah. I’m really proud of like reaching that goal and the fact that. I did it in a pandemic with two tiny children.

Feels like extra triple gold stars or something like that. 

Tami: Yes, I do know. I’m like, yeah, this year again, I can’t believe it’s only August and I can’t believe that it’s August already because everyone’s lived a hundred lifetimes in the last eight months. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: There you have it. Alright, Gina, what, how does here affect your work?

Gina: I mean, that one, it re it’s so much of what people come to me is like coming back to themselves like that, like surfacing I’m talking about after, their little ones grow. So, or like they leave the nest or after a marriage, right. People kind of come back to themselves and they’re like, Hey. I used to have hobbies that I really set aside, or like I used to be interested in these things.

I don’t even know what I’m interested in anymore, or like, you know, I used to be expressive in these ways. Who am I? Right. And a lot of self care, you know, I think people think about it like fitness and health care law, which is certainly a component of it. But it’s, I think about it more in this wider context of like, Monitoring and checking in with my self awareness, my spirit, my financial wellbeing, like my goals and my dreams.

Right. My creative expression, like all this much more holistic version of that, which is, you know, a lot sometimes I think they’re probably people listening right now who are like, Holy crap. I can’t imagine holding all of that and managing my daily life. 

Tami: You’re like, I just need to get more sleep. And I’m like, let’s start there.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And, Oh my God. Everything does feel better when you have more sleep. 

Gina: Totally does it totally does. 

Tami: It’s like meeting everybody where they are. 

Gina: Yeah. And as a coach, you know, the other, when you ask, like how does self care affect my work? Like I, Certainly this year. I set aside like some of my like movement practices, like my, I liked to go for a walk every day and get a certain number of steps in.

And, just being out in fresh air in, hopefully the sunlight breathing a little heavy, moving my body, looking around instead of just at my computer screen, simply those things once a day. It changes the Nate, the way I’m able to connect and listen and think through, and problem solve with my clients.

It helps me sleep better. It helps me be better with my kids, like, you know, so, those having those kinds of practices, I do better work when I take my vitamins. I do better work when I’m seeing my friends. I do better work when I’ve gotten in the garden. Right? Like all of those things just help me be cleaner and more clear and grounded in my work with people too.

So I don’t have like a real clear, measurable with that, but the census so clear to me. 

Tami: Okay. But that brings me to, what did you learn about growing up? Are you, I have no idea what generation I’m a gen X gal. 

Gina: And do I think I’m gen Z. I’m like right before millennial. what’s right before Mo like just sketch older than millennial.

Tami: believe that’s elder millennial. 

Gina: Okay. We’ll find out. I’m an elder millennial. Maybe there were not computers in my schools until I went into grad school. Okay. So 

Tami: you were born in the 

Gina: eighties, late 

Tami: seventies. Okay. I’m 1970. Okay. So you’re late. So yeah, you’re an elder millennial 

Gina: slash 

Tami: hella young gen exer.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. So what did you learn about self care growing 

Gina: up? I, A couple of things. I think I had parents who modeled self care in a couple of different ways. They were both, I was raised by two therapists, and, who worked with kids and adolescents. And so, I remember my dad coming home every day from work every single day.

And he would like arrive change into his running gear and be gone. And we just like, wouldn’t see dad for a half an hour, 45 minutes, you know? And that was just like his very regular ritual. My mom was really explicit with me about it. at some point in my life, I remember her saying to me, You know, something like, you know, part of why dad and I have been able to see they happily married is because we have our own friendships and interests that we take time for.

He goes fishing. I go for a weekend with my girlfriends. She has this women’s group that I think has been going for 40 something years where they meet like every other week, every third week or something like that. You know, and they’ve like moved around the country, all kinds of stuff, but they’ve stayed connected to their interests.

and that like being able to balance like autonomy and connection, it ends up fueling a lot of the conversations I have in my work. I mean, we were just talking about it, right? Like not totally losing yourself. Right. So that you’re like completely codependent or in meshed and also not being so completely independent that there’s no connection or no, like overlap.


Tami: autonomy, and sovereignty are two of my favorite words in the 

Gina: English language. 

Tami: Yeah. Yeah. From boundaries, freedom 

Gina: structure. 

Tami: Nexion interdependence, but not. Dependent 

Gina: what again? Yeah, I’m really, I feel really fortunate actually, when you sent that question along, it was like, Oh, I haven’t thought about it that way.

But they modeled, pretty effective self care. you know, and like anyone, I think they also are totally imperfect human beings who, didn’t sometimes either. Right. 

Tami: But there, but there’s, I feel like there’s a, there is a thread of intent and like your mom having that explicit conversation, like my mom, so I’m like almost a decade older.

So my, I think my parents were probably a decade older than yours. So my mom, her message to me was don’t do what I did. And I was like, 

Gina: Oh 

Tami: Yeah, because that doesn’t look attractive to me, but there was no, like, let me show you the way I was like, 

Gina: Oh yeah. 

Tami: So it’s that like, you hear it with your ears, but you’re like, but I’m not really sure what to do next.


Gina: I think it’s, two of the things that made me think a little bit about two other messages. I know I got very clearly from my mom. they waited a long time. They were, old, they’re always, they were always the oldest parents at all the things. and I actually followed in this, but my mom said, wait a long time and live a full life before you have kids.

And for me, you know, that there’s all kinds of things. You know, like privilege and access to birth control, that can be wrapped up in that. But like, but I was able to do that in my partner did too. Now we are old parents and there’s certainly a trade off of being in our forties and having a one year old.

Physically quite demanding. I know. Yeah, 

Tami: I’m 50 and my daughter’s nine. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. and the trade off is also if I had done it in my twenties, I wouldn’t have had as much for me. and certainly some of the things I think of observed in the mom groups I’m in, my twenties, I didn’t have as much self awareness and like emotional, Emotional maturity or practice with relationships is what I think I would say in practice with knowing myself.

and I see that get really stirred up with some of the other moms in the groups that I’m in, who just haven’t, it was much like the practice getting to know themselves, right? So they, they get more stirred up in some of that or some of the relationship stuff. We’re pretty grounded in our relationship stuff.

I’m pretty humble at this point. but we’re exhausted in a way that it’s different than when I was 23. If I had been up all night. 

Tami: Oh, absolutely. but it’s funny too, because my husband’s a little bit older than me. So we were, you know, we’re in our fifties. I’ll just say that, like by the time, so my brother had kids in his early twenties and I had kids in my early forties and he’s only three years old and he’s like, Oh my God, I can’t believe you do this when you’re so old that I was like, I can’t believe you did it when you were so young, 

Gina: because 

Tami: I’m like in my twenties and thirties, I was traveling and.

Drinking a lot and like moving all over the country and doing all of these things. And yeah, I had tons of energy, but I don’t know about you, but, by the time I was in my forties, I’m like, I’m not that interested in like, Going to bars and hanging out and be an outlier because I’m already tired. Right?

Gina: The adventure

Tami: I’m seeing the world in a very different light because my, we like to wake up the birds at our house. We like to get up really early. but, as a 50 year old lady, I’m already getting rolled up real early. 

Gina: So yeah. Yeah. Or 

Tami: you 

Gina: have it. Yeah. I don’t know how we got onto the parenting part, but thinking about that, like, Oh, I know.

Cause we were talking about, that was one of the pieces of advice that my mom gave me an another really clear one that she had seen, you know, she’s from a generation where she really saw a lot of people come to divorce for the first time in their family history. Right. Nobody had ever gotten divorced and and she had said, she said, make sure.

And she, my dad are still together and have they’re actually. Quite well connected. It’s amazing for how long they’ve been together, but they, she said never let yourself be completely dependent on another human for your wellbeing. And I think that came from like seeing her people in her family and also, people around her who really had their whole framework disrupted and were suddenly like really, reeling, just like.

Into the unknown when they did have to divorce for whatever reason, or did need to leave for maybe safety or something like, and again, there’s like a certain amount of, privilege and access of being able to do that for a lot of folks. And, it’s helpful to me think about like, what are my, like, Financial and like resource, frameworks for self care.

Right. And preserving intending to those things, you would asked him the questions about what some of my stuff, self care practices are. And of course there’s like I garden, I drink water. I take my vitamins Abe, but, In the last 10 years, 15 years, I feel really good about coming to a practice of tending my money in a way that’s wise and boundaried and intentional and conscious.

and I, you know, I used to be someone who would avoid that part and it really led to a lot of like financial insecurity and panic and frustration and fear and scarcity and, I tend to like my garden, like every day I just do a little, one thing here, a little, one thing here, pay attention. and I think about what do I want to plant?

And then what, how do I nurture whatever I’m a planting. just like my garden a little bit every day. And, it’s helped me create like a really beautiful baseline for myself and my family. 

Tami: So how, what methods did you use to learn about the tending the money garden? It’s funny. I have a book called tending the money garden.

Oh, you do 

Gina: love that. I saw a talk at a wanderlust speakeasy where Kate Northrup used that metaphor and really talked about like perceiving bills as gratitude for gifts already received. And I am a huge gardener. And so I thought like, gosh, if I want, if I’m wanting this thing to grow, I turn to it everyday.

If I want my kids to grow, I turned to them every day. if I want my money to grow or if I want it to be sustainable, I can’t just ignore it and not. Pay attention to it. And I, you know, I can’t try and like binge and purge kind of with it. I need to have a sustainable practice of showing up for it, with the kind of energy I want.

And so, so big stuff, but I like, you know, each day I just like check my balances and move some stuff around if I need to. And. I pay a little closer attention to there’s a lot of stuff I just set and forget in wise ways too. Like I, I round up all my bills, to the next 25 bucks. Again, this I can do because I’ve built up some savings, but what that meant last year, my partner lost his job.

And just from rounding up our cell phone bill and our electric bill by 2055 or $7 or whatever it is, it accrued. You know, a balance, a credit balance, so that it floated us through a couple of months that we didn’t just didn’t have to pay those bills, which was a huge relief. Right. And I was so grateful.

Oh, I, because we had the score thought we did this thing that was within our means, but really intentional 

Tami: ease. And it was also. I’m going to say relatively painless because you’re like, you did a little bit at a time and it’s like training for a marathon. You didn’t run out, run 26 miles. You’re like I put my shoes on and then I went to the block down the block.

It’s funny. My, So I had a milestone birthday this year and I am kind of a money is a funny thing for me. I’m still, I’m a saver and I’m an accumulator, but then I’m like, now I’m kind of stuck. So my thing, but this year, so my word of the year is system. So I’m putting systems in place to make everything in my life, work better, like everything in my life, in every aspect.

But also I do a 20 for 20 lists. I don’t know if you listened to the happier in Hollywood. And the happier podcast with Gretchen Rubin and her sister Elizabeth Craft, and Sarah 

Gina: Fe, I’m writing it down. 

Tami: Those are two great podcasts, but one of the things I do like a 24 20 lists and an 18 for 18. So I took my 20 for 20 lists and I wrote 20 financial things I wanted to do this year.

Like hire a bookkeeper, read 12 books about money, automate my retirement savings and all these things that were like. Like, it’s building that tending habit in another aspect of my 

Gina: life. Cause 

Tami: like I have 55, five minute things I do for everything else. Why not have, you know, add a few things for money.

Gina: And it’s not opponent. A lot of folks think about with, within the realm of self care. but I really like to look at like, what are my resources, right? And one of them is a financial resource in the world that we’re living in right now. There’s also time. Physical energy, emotional energy. Really, these are all my resources, but if I don’t check in with those account balances on the regular, I do, I have a tendency and I’ve seen this in plenty of my clients to like overspend in some or like hoard in others.

Right. Of like, I’m not gonna to, you know, because I’m getting reactive if I’m not aware. Right. Absolutely. 

Tami: And it’s interesting because how I look at self care or one way to look at it is. What drains your energy and nothing drains your energy more than something that you’re avoiding or something that you’re sweeping under the rug or something.

That’s kind of running you instead of you running it. So if you’re not running your calendar, it’s running you. If you’re not running your money, it’s running you. If you’re not one of your sleep friends, it’s running you 

Gina: like a coaching session for you. I’m just going to keep taking notes. 

Tami: But this is a thing like.

I think another place where our work really, overlaps is in that piece of like, I would say that my biggest self care, apifany lesson, all of it is learning about self-compassion. Okay. And I, and because I feel like for me, that drives everything. Yeah, I’m being kind to myself and I’m realizing that I’m in perfect and you’re imperfect and it’s okay.

And we’re all in this together and we’re paying attention to we’re doing that thing, which is judging and criticizing and comparing. once I brought that into my life, it was like, God, this, everything so much easier. And peaceful. I can sleep better. I can get along with people better. 

Gina: Yeah. You’re one of your wise questions was where is your self care going?

I think, and I had written it, I’m coming to a place of shame, resilience and, really not, allowing shame to take up a lot of space in my life anymore specific. The one that stood out specifically the 

Tami: part where we’re going to talk about Bernie Brown, cause I’ve talked about her in every episode at 

Gina: some point.

Tami: All right. Great. 

Gina: so I did a big training with her, a few, a number of years ago now. And it was the life. I mean, because Darren greatly was life changing for me when I read it. And her Ted talks or maybe the other way around. And then I was like, I need to go train with this woman. So I went to Texas to train with her and it changed.

Tami: Whoa. Did you actually get this training directly with Bernay like you were talking 

Gina: to them? Yeah,

my goodness. conversation about probiotics over dinner at one point, I mean, you know, like, I wouldn’t say we’re best friends, but we definitely have interacted in her teaching. I was really moved by her and her team’s, integrity, like the things they are telling everybody to try and do. I would see them enacting in front of everyone, but 

Tami: also like 

Gina: you could overhear them in the hallway, having conversations, using the things they were suggesting we all use.

And that to me was such, it was profound as far as like seeing the teachers. Really walking their talk. Right. And having a really high integrity model. I, so I have a very high respect for her and her team. 

Tami: Okay. It’s so funny. 

Gina: I, 

Tami: you meet a lot of people online highlight you and then you meet them in person.

And then they’re like, 

Gina: yeah, 

Tami: you’re just like, you are online, but better. How is that even happening? That happens to me when I go places. And I went to all summit a couple of years ago and I sat next to somebody and she goes, You’re so quietly confident. Ooh. Let’s just sit by each other. I was like, okay.

I was like, I don’t have anybody to be, but me that’s it. I don’t know what to tell you. Okay. So you met Renee. Can you explain that? So I know it’s shame, resilience says, but tell us all Gina, when you speak those words, what does that mean? 

Gina: Yeah, I think, I mean, for a lot of folks they’ll use the term like self-critic or like inner gremlins or like how I beat myself up a lot of that.

Yeah, like is shame. It’s the stuff that tells you to keep small or keep quiet or don’t like, but, shame is like the voice that says this thing in you is so messed up. Anyone ever found out they would leave you that, you know, like nobody would want to be around someone like this. It’s like so gross and so 

Tami: ugly bits, all the things seen people.

Gina: Totally. And the more shame we have, I mean, there’s like, Direct correlations between like wellness, on a number, in a number areas in life and the amount of shame we’re carrying around. Right. And the amount of like internalized, like I believe that message. I got it from someone directly or indirectly, and I truly believe.

This thing about me is so yucky. Nobody would love me if they figured it out. And so it leads us to like, live this like life in the shadows where we sneak foods for food shame as big, or we like sneak videos are guilty pleasures. I’m never going to tell anyone I watch reality TV because that would be so embarrassing or, We would like sneak and hide and we do all these things to like, keep it from coming out into the light.

I work a lot with people around sexuality. There’s a ton of sexual shame saying like, Oh, you’re weird because you have an orgasm this way. Something’s wrong with you because you fantasize about this thing, right? Like, and the more we can come to a place where we, so shame resilience is all about discerning environments, where that we can be vulnerable with somebody like someone’s trustworthy enough to share like, this is this thing I’m working on.

I’m thinking about. And the person or the container is safe enough to say like, 

Tami: Hey, bud. 

Gina: okay. You got a thing, you got a thing. Let’s look at how we work on that thing, right? so it’s not judging it. It’s not shutting it down. It’s also not totally fanning the flames. Right. It’s we want to be held with like a, 

Tami: huh?

Okay. Let’s look at that. 

Gina: Right. Like just purely gentle holding right there. Like that’s what true compassion is. It’s like 

Tami: not judgment. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And just 

Gina: enough accountability where if I did. do something that was harmful, you know, that container’s going to say like, Hey bud, leave me not that choice again, but it’s not like you are, is that going to repeat the shame and say, you’re, something’s wrong with you?

You’re terrible. Put that away. Yuck. but it’s gonna be 

Tami: like, okay, we’re going to learn from this. 

Gina: We’re going to not repeat this pattern. So shame resilience is kind of like building up systems in your life where you have that discernment to know, like, is this a safe enough place for me to show up in these ways?

and where I can like deal with that, even showing some of my Shamie bits to myself, right? Like, can I name them and own them that they’re there. and then, Kind of getting to a place of deciding what to do with them. Because like I said, if we’re just like living shame, we’re often like living out of reactivity and we just do things on autopilot.

Bernay talks about, you know, fi like losing time is one of the things that like, suddenly I’ve lost. Three hours on Facebook or I’ve lost time and I’m in a pantry eating or lost time, and I’ve been watching porn for days, or, you know, like, Whoa, This like time-suck happened. I don’t even know how I got here, but I know I said something mean, or I know, you know, like, and the more we can get into a place of.

Owning things and building shame, resilience, the less we’re going to get into that time, suck and end up with like the double shame of trying to clean up wherever we ended up. Right. Like, Oh, I drank a time and I barfed all over and I said something nasty or whatever. Like, Ooh, that’s a lot of cleanup literal and figurative.

Is it that I should never drink for some people? Yeah. 

Tami: For 

Gina: plenty of people yet, or is it that like, I want to be more in a place of choice when I interact with drinking. Right? Or like, what did it, what led me to that place of choosing a lot of drinking? 

Tami: Let me just check that out. 

Gina: Is this making sense?

I don’t know if I’m being really clear about it. 

Tami: Hi, I’m over here. Like, 

Gina: yeah. And 

Tami: for 

Gina: me, one of the ones I noticed is like my body shame. That’s actually the one I wrote about in response to here. There’s so many messages about body shame. And especially for women in our culture of like, your body should look like this or do this thing.

And if it doesn’t look like this or do this thing, there’s something wrong and you got to fix it. It’s broken. You know, you’re not taking care of yourself, whatever. And for me, it’s been huge to come to a place of like, this is my body. I’m not going to spend a lot of time, like hating it because I’ve only got this one chance with it and hating it.

Doesn’t actually do me any good shame, 

Tami: hating your body. Doesn’t make it change a, a. Stereotypical like, 

Gina: right. 

Tami: Do you know Anna guest jelly of, curvy yoga? No. 

Gina: I know curvy yoga. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. Anna is the creator of curvy yoga, and she wrote a book called creatively Kirby yoga. She has her studio she’s in Portland.

Now. She was in Nashville for a long time, but she and her work. And then her, the work of Rosie Molinari who wrote the book. Beautiful. You, they really helped me flip the script on the body shame too. And I love the idea, Anna and I talked about, I think in episode 13, about the idea of. Body neutrality.

So between right, you don’t have to run from one polar and to the other, you can find this place of curiosity and gratitude for what your body is doing the day in this moment. Yeah. Oh my God. I’m still so excited that you met Bernie. I’m looking 

Gina: at all of her books, other, you know, the people who helped me come do a lot of really good work around my own body.

Really? For me, it was in Portland. You must know Dana and Hillary from be nourished. I’m guessing 

Tami: they followed their work. Yes. 

Gina: Okay. You will have them on it sometime and you’re going to love it. Cause I think you all need to be buds. but they have a whole program to help, like working through body trust and it’s so.

Tami: Intuitive eating thread. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And do you know w Cole? 

Gina: Yes. Yeah. Okay. I mean, not personally, but yes. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, coming to that, it’s like, it’s so empowering. not to feel terrible about my body and also to be like, I don’t have to, I’m not like forced to like, love it all the time either.

Right. Like I can just be, like you said, neutral. caring. Right. Compassionate. Right. And accepting more than anything. 

Tami: I feel like, self-acceptance is my life’s work. Like if I had to like, like put a stake in some territory of like, really, what is my, what am I doing here in the world? It’s like, that obviously benefits me.

But let me tell you if you’re sitting next to somebody that has a. That self acceptance piece. I think that’s the quiet, that’s where the quiet confidence comes from because like your anxiety isn’t like shooting out of every poor getting on everyone’s stuff. Cause you’re kind of contained of like, I’m within these limits here.

Gina: My stake is in a shame Slayer, so it’s probably right next door to yours. And, I am remembering when I had my wedding, we’re queer and I had this big. Queer wedding, and have small handful of folks from my relatively  hometown, came out and it was their first exposure to a lot of, very colorful, queer culture.

And I remember sitting down with one of my dad’s best buds, longtime mentor. He would probably not identify himself as conservative, but he certainly was in this group. And I just was like, Hey, how’s it going? And he said, uncle Bob, he said, you know, do you know this place is fucking zoo, but it is an awesome fucking zoo.

And he said that he had never seen so many people so comfortable in their own skin in one place. And I was, you know, it’s not completely inherent in queerness. But for a lot of the people I have chosen to surround myself with, and especially the folks who have worked with their own issues around sexuality and internalized depression, there is this like inner life.

Like I’m good with myself. I’m good with myself. that makes it easier than. For other people, right? Like there’s like a ripple effect of like, Oh, you can be good to yourself. Cause we’re all good here. We’re not, we don’t do X do that. It’s I don’t do the judging stuff. 

Tami: It’s like, you can see, you gotta be able to see it to be it because a lot of people like, wait, that’s an option.

Yeah. Like not hating your body’s an option. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: I didn’t know that. I didn’t know we were doing that. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. And I do want to create that. I want to create a world where everyone can lean into that and lean into where we’re not there yet, but I do want to create the world where. Women, all women, all, everyone is safe and they’re just, I’m here with 

Gina: that.

Tami: Yeah. Okay. So 

Gina: what 

Tami: do you think in terms of your self care? What could use more attention at this point? 

Gina: I think, the. There are ways that the pandemic has been great for my self care. And I miss community. I miss hugging my friends. I miss like the ease of meeting with people in person. And we have been following a pretty strict.

Social distancing guideline. And I feel really good about that to protect my health and my family’s health and other people’s health. And also it, I it’s really hard. we’ve been maintaining friendships online and that is lovely, but I miss people. I miss people and that like sense of belonging and big community celebrations and outdoor music festivals and hugging, like all of that, like relaxed.

People relaxed people, stuff. And I’m trusting that things will work themselves out, that we can get back to something like that again, in my lifetime. But right now I miss it. I miss it. There’s a hole there. Yeah. 

Tami: I’m glad that you said that I had a conversation with the woman who used to co I was like, so I’m just going to call her.

She still cuts my hair, even though she has touch my head in like eight months, I’m hacking away at my own hair, but she lives around the corner from me. And I was sitting on the porch yesterday and she walked by and I was like, how are you doing? She’s like, I’m doing great. I’m on unemployment. Like it’s okay.

Everything’s fine. I’m really, I’m healthy. I’m safe. I’m glad everyone has to have too. I said, great. And then she said, I’m S w we had this moment of agreement where we’re like, are we ever going to go inside with people again? And I was like, I don’t know, but we are lucky because we live in California and we can be outside 365 days a year.

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: And so I’m like 

Gina: dreading the winter here. I mean, I really am dreading it. We have been putting a lot of systems in place to try and sort out, how will we survive winter here? Right. And some of it for us is going to be embracing outdoor sports and outdoor activities more than we ever have.

Yep. And some of it is we expanded our bubble, partially for childcare, so that we’ve got another family. but that also means another home that like, we can go. So Ray and I are going to go work there some days with the other, one of their partners and the kids are all going to be at this house. And then our kids get a different house to plan.

Otherwise our house. Yeah. It would feel very small, very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: So what, tell me about it, your mornings. 

Gina: I have two tiny children, so my mornings start promptly at 5:55 AM when the eldest wakes up and says, right. And then the other one, it’s usually six. So five, six and eight. and so there, you know, like I am, for me, I am not an early riser.

I will sleep until they get me up. for me, my like solo time comes after bedtime at night, but so we’re up and, you know, it’s both sort of chaotic and it’s also like that’s my grounding for the day is I get, I do breakfast with my kids in the morning. We’ve lately been reading books and doing puzzles kind of while breakfast, snacking is going on.

And that feels really good because it’s kept us more grounded and focused and present at the table. we all do vitamins and water with our breakfast, and that is part of my self care ritual. And then once, Our little childcare system is going. I can check email and start my, I like to clear out all of my admin stuff as much as I can first thing in the morning.

And then I don’t check email all throughout the day. That’s a really important boundary for me that I had to create during this pandemic time, because, It’s been so hard for me to find a set focus, time to really respond thoughtfully that I create it. And then, I have an outgoing message that’s like set up in order to like, maintain that boundary of like, I just, I can’t give you my full attention.

Until the next cycle of email time comes back up. 

Tami: and how have people responded to that? 

Gina: I have had, you know, the only thing I’ve had is, good, really positive feedback. Like other professionals saying, I want to steal your message and just cut and paste it into my inbox. And I say, go for it. if anybody wants it, they can email gina@hygiene.com and you will get it right back immediately.

Tami: It’s so funny. Like I, I had a phone thing, so I need to redo mine, but I put my office hours like, 

Gina: and you can expect to hear back from me 


Tami: like two days. Like it’s either going to be two minutes, two days or never. I don’t know what to tell you, but that’s how I roll. but when I was a teacher, so I don’t know, I spent a decade as a classroom teacher.

And so I had office hours where I was like, I answered email. At this time, and this time, if you send an email at some other time, I’m not going to get back to 

Gina: you. Yeah. 

Tami: Cause in my mind, I’m like, no, if we’re, if you’re having an emergency, the last thing you want to do is email someone. 

Gina: Yeah.

Tami: That email is not for emergencies. And so I’m going to, I’m going to respond thoughtfully after 30 minutes after the bell. And then I’m going to respond thoughtfully at 6:00 PM. Because perhaps you were in a meeting at three o’clock and you and or your kid forgot their thing. And this is the first time you’re seeing them as at six.

Gina: Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: And I will check it before work to see if anything fell apart overnight, but, and people are like, but how do people respond? And like, they were great. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: They were really happy. They weren’t like, am I not? I was like, I just gave them a really clear container of when it happened.

Yeah, and I never put it on my phone. I just, this is where I 

Gina: do it. I like to have, I mean, I have all of the people who. I am comfortable with them approaching me for emergencies, my clients, my family, my friends, they know my phone number. They will text or call if they need me immediately. Right.

And the truth is my life is built. And I think yours is probably this way too, where there are. You know, an hour and a half at a time when I’m in session with someone, when I’m giving somebody else my full presence and my family all knows. You know, even if you text me, I may not get it for 45 minutes to an hour until I’m done with this conversation.

And, I’ve given that sometimes to clients as an example. Cause I’ve had some folks say like, Oh, I want, you know, my expectation is that my partner is available to me immediately over texts all the time. And, you know, I, you know, we can have a good conversation then about like, huh? how does that give them an opportunity to be available to other people and build other connections or be present to their work or to their book or their jog or whatever.

Tami: Right. I in, I’m having judgy face. I do that sometimes. Cause I’m thinking, but as I’m like, I don’t want there to be a sense of urgency on something that isn’t truly urgent because I already live in kind of a, a state of that naturally that I’m like, please don’t throw gasoline on my internal fire.

Like we just need to like ramp it back down where it belongs for my comfort. Yeah. Okay. So what else should people know about you and where can people find you online? 

Gina: the, let me think, what else should folks know? I feel like we’ve covered most of the big stuff that I really like working with love and relationships and communication and shame.

Big two good one. Yeah. They could know that I’m a gardener and I have a tiny children, and then I live in the Midwest. Now I do all my work online and tell, hopefully sometime soon we can. Meet in person. I am trying to figure out a way to do couple the intensives, where it would be very small group, maybe two or four people at didn’t go and we could meet in person.

I think there’s gotta be a way to do that outdoors. I just need to work through the like logistics and comfort and risk assessment with people. And then they can find me on my podcast, phone or online at  dot com. and then my practice that is more focused on nontraditional relationships is alt relationships.com or non-monogamous dot com.

They can find me over there 

Tami: too. I like all your you’re, like I’ve got all the ways you can reach me. 

Gina: Yeah. Come find me. 

Tami: Yeah. I mean, so good. Okay. So did you ever watch inside the actor’s studio? I did not, 

Gina: but how long do I have on the quickfire? 

Tami: Okay. As long as you want, 


Tami: can make this quick fire, but it ends up being like soup.

It’s like the slowest burn ever. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Okay, Gina, what 

Gina: does it give you? Quick answers. Okay. I got them. 

Tami: and I’m going to talk your ear off, cause that’s what I do because apparently I’m started for company, Gina, what’s your Enneagram? 

Gina: I am a strong eight with a seven wing. 

Tami: You know, I love that because, and if you, if anybody knows, I struggled with the eights because Ooh, There is not a lot of healthy eights in the world.

There’s some, like, I believe the word megalomaniac came out about the eights. 

Gina: Like 

Tami: they’re strong, they’re undeniable, but man, a healthy eight woo and a healthy 

Gina: woman. I mean, it’s really clear when my stuff is out of balance and the eight, like I just dig in and I’m going to be in control and in charge of everything.

And no one, I was at this retreat this weekend and I got from the instructor. That was good, but she was like, you know, you’re good at setting boundaries. And then there’s a fine line to where it can feel like an energetic, like. Slamming the door in my face or something like that. And I was like, Oh, that’s the eight right there.

you know, it comes out for sure. Yes. It took me a long time to claim that eight because it also there’s a lot of like yucky stereotypes and stories about eight, because we don’t have enough models of what it can look like when that director is. Has is in balance, right, 

Tami: right. Especially of they’re culturally female eight.

So if you guys forgot eights or leaders, So Kamala Harris right now. Hi, I don’t know she’s an eight, but just using her as an example 

Gina: of that way. 

Tami: but, the how culture, how people that are swimming in our culture deal with strong female leaders is we need to take her down like a crab, trying to crawl out of a bucket.

We’re going to grab her leg and yank her back in the bucket. 

Gina: I’m like, 

Tami: We could do this differently 

Gina: friends. Yeah. It 

Tami: would all be better served with more leadership. 

Gina: Yeah. And I think especially for a women, I think we all get a lot of messaging about don’t be too much. I think that like in this eight role, we’re the ball Buster.

We’re like, we’re taking up too much space. We’re bossy, right? Like there’s a lot of, Terrible stereotypes. And especially women of color who are an eight, right? Like, just like the angry black woman, all of that can come out. when a woman is purely acting assertively. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. It’s funny. I, I’m a one, but I thought for sure, I was an eight and then I talked to my therapist and she was like, 

Gina: Let’s look at that. 

Tami: Yeah. And I was like, but she’s like, look, you’ve been telling me your secrets all these years. I’m just going to let you know. It’s like, and then I loved it. Like. Like the secrets part of the one I was like, Oh, you’re right. She’s like, 

Gina: yeah. Okay. 

Tami: Introvert, 

Gina: extrovert. UNFP. But the older I get, the more my eye is getting cleared up, you know, like I feel like it’s shifted.

I really do. 

Tami: And I will just add I’m an inf J. And I kind of wiggled between the J and the P boy, having a little kid makes that, I think a way up it’s because you’re like, Oh, hi, little energy vampires. Would you like all of me? And they’re like, yes, 

Gina: right now, 

Tami: do you have extra? And you’re like, no, they’re like, that’s okay.

I’m going to take it all. Yeah. Okay. So on the four tendencies from my girl, Gretchen Rubin, so upholder, questioner, obliger, 

Gina: rebel.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yep. I mean, and it fits with everything that I do, right. Like if that’s are my job in this world. Absolutely. 

Tami: and I have to say, and as I’ve gotten more. More healthy. My questions go less from you think, are you sure I have to do that more too? Like how could we make this work? My questions have gotten more refined.

Gina: Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: Love language, 

Gina: huge advocate for my love language. because it gets like, Overlooked, I think by a lot of people, but I met giant acts of service person. If you like change the oil in the car and I don’t even have to think about it. Holy shit. Do I love that? Or like my partner does the dishes every day and has now for 11 plus years, I haven’t touched a dish.

It’s like so good for me, right? Yeah. That like, how could you make your life easier? What’s your secondary. you know, 

Tami: the 

Gina: secondary one, maybe quality time, but, it kind of fluctuates between quality time. And words of affirmation. 

Tami: Okay. and my number one is words, but very closely, like they’re basically married of acts of service.

And my spouse is the same, but he is acts of service and, word second. And once I found that out, I was like, Oh my God, we never have to buy another gift. We never, it was like, Oh, I can let all these. 

Gina: Neither of us are gifts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: The reason I started a podcast, what’s your favorite last book you’ve read?

Gina: I’m still in the middle of it, but the Greenwich, It’s really gorgeous. I’ve been coming back to my own like spiritual practices around like witchcraft and intuition and stuff. And, there’s a particular author. I’m looking behind me to see if I even have it. Cause I started this one. That’s it right here.

Nope. It’s I started this one and it’s so good. I went and downloaded every book by this author. I should be able to quote you her name, but. yeah, if you’re looking for something about like which genus or which, like identity, there’s a whole like self care practices for the modern, which, that she wrote Erin.

Let me look, 

Tami: wait, I think I might have that, 

Gina: which is book of self care would be a perfect one for you, 

Tami: dude. I think I have that on my Kindle. 

Gina: Yeah. So good. I, yeah, I just love it. There’s like clear practices and there’s like a lot of spaciousness about like, instead of, I mean, at least this one talk, I could talk about witchcraft for a while, but instead of, I think a lot of people try and think about witchcraft, like a religious practice, like.

As a dogma. And there’s certainly plenty of that in paganism or in Wiccan practices, but witchcraft is just far more, there’s like just a lot of spaciousness in how you implement practices. And so a lot of it is right in alignment with self care stuff. So anyway, the green, which is good, I’m about to start the house, which I already read the, which is what self care cause that one was like so easy to me.

That’s great. Okay. And you love it when you find an author and then you want to just like deep dive into all their stuff. Okay. 

Tami: So how I found out about self-compassion as a practice and the book is I was reading Bernay Brown so closely that I was reading the footnotes and all of the reference points and the articles.

So what deep readings said what? Yeah. Okay. And now I’m super intrigued by your whole witchcraft thing. Okay. What’s your favorite book of all time? 

Gina: I’m nervous to say this because I’m just nervous about saying this, but when I read it’s more about the experience than anything, even about this particular book, the, when I read the red tent, the first time it like hit me.

So perfectly with where I was coming into being a woman, what I was thinking about like spiritually, I was traveling internationally. And so there were, there just were, I, it was the first book I ever read where. I stopped myself from it. I was like, devouring it. And then I realized I was like 12 pages from the end.

And I stopped myself and started crying about the book that, you know, over and had to like pace it out because I didn’t want my reading experience to end. Like that was my passion for that book. so even more than the book itself, like my connection to it, that’s that reading experience is like of all time.

My favorite reading experience. 

Tami: I love that. And so has it passed the rereading test? 

Gina: Is that it here to reread it? That’s some of I’m like nervous about it because I’m in a totally different place in my life. I mean, I read it 20. Three years ago now, you know, 

Tami: and what’s funny is I read, I started reading that book and was like, Hey, and then a few years later I picked it up and I was like, Oh my God, this is so 

Gina: good.


Tami: Like I think that’s one of those books that if you’ve tried it before, try it again. Cause it’s something that you do. I feel like you have to be in the right space in your life, in your, whatever for it to resonate. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like fireworks for me. 

Tami: What about, what’s your favorite personal development book?

I mean, 

Gina: we’ve mentioned this is not going to be shock to anyone who’s listened, but if you have not read Darren greatly. Everyone. It needs to be like mandated reading, I think for everyone in the world. That is so good about, just about shame, resilience, about personal relationship, but relationship to others.

I’m about healing trauma for so many people. I mean, it’s just phenomenal. and then if you want a couples one, my favorite couple stuff comes anything Astaire Parral writes. I love her writing and she’s got such a gorgeous accent. If you download the audio books, she reads them herself and it’s like yummy to listen to her talk through.

Tami: And she wrote mating in captivity. What is another one 

Gina: fairs? And you know, if you ever know anybody dealing with infidelity, that is the book I recommend for everyone about infidelity, figuring out, like, what is this about? Yeah. I heard her, 

Tami: I think I heard her on dear sugars talking with Cheryl strayed, how that go wrong, but just talking about the idea of infidelity, not being the end of a relationship, I was like, thank you.

Yeah, thank you. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: sure. It can be, but it doesn’t have to be. 

Gina: Yeah. I love that. She’s like, relationships are way more complex than we like to try and make them be. We like to think about it, like all this or not, or this, and it’s just not that way. Right. 

Tami: But also if you want to weigh out and your part, if you secretly want to weigh out and your partner cheats on you, that is sure.

Yeah. Everybody will be like, yeah. What a dog. Woo. Also. Yeah. Yeah, I have. I agree. Okay. 

Gina: Yes. 

Tami: Yes. I have feelings on that. I will, I’ll just leave it at that. We could have a whole other conversation just on that. and people’s minds will be blown. They’re like what? I’ve never thought about that like that before, like I had a conversation with a guest one time just talking about the shame around marriage and.

And divorced. And I was like, but what if we rebranded, divorces getting unmarried? 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. I talk about it as relationship transformation, because most of the folks, especially that I’m working with once you’re married, you have like a coal community or a financial network or children, and that family you’ve created, like you’ve got all this stuff you’ve created that stuff doesn’t end just because you legally.

Untied yourself. It can, but like often it’s more like, how do we want to relate to each other when we run into each other at the kids’ school? And how do we want to be when I, you have a new partner in, am I going to, how are we going to, how are we going to be, you know, around our, around the house that we bought together or the timeshare that we’re in?

Like, how do we want to be together? Even if we’re not together in the same context. 

Tami: and also what I mean, I, so one of the things that I wish that we did here in life is what about if every five years we sat down with our partners. And instead of having this pretend like, I got married at 23 and until we’re dead.


Gina: These are our agreements. They never change. 

Tami: Yeah. Obviously that’s a lie. So, but what if we ever sat down every five years and we’re like, are you in, are you out? What do you want? What do you don’t like re I call it renegotiating the terms, every relationship every few years, so that it gives everyone a chance to evolve.

and if you’re like, if you decide at the end of your fourth contract, so at 20 years you decide. This is a good one, right? You’re like I had a 20 year relationship and we decided to part ways. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: boy, that sure changes the dynamic of this. Like I’m nothing without you. And like, 

Gina: yeah. I, have an assessment tool that I asked my folks to do on an annual basis every year on their anniversary around then, where we look back on like what were cause if okay.

If we were making a. A thoughtful decision to create an, a business together with someone, it would be wise to hire a couple of expert coaches or accountants or lawyers, right. To look over some of our agreements in the beginning, premarital counseling right there. and, then we would meet every, at least every quarter, but like every year, or, and.

Every five years to reassess like renegotiate terms. Are you still a stakeholder in these ways or do you do these roles and responsibilities still fit for you? Do we need to outsource, do we need to hire a nanny? Do we need to outsource and, get a landscaping team? Do we need to, what are our goals now?

Like what are our measurables, all this stuff, right. 

Tami: And we call all the ancillary people in our lives. Our family success team. 

Gina: Oh, I love 

Tami: that. I love that. We need to bring it on too. Our family success team 

Gina: now, 

Tami: obviously 2020, or like, so I give up my whole family success team because we don’t, we’re not in, we’re doing the safety protocol of not, we have a bubble of three.

And so that’s it. So however we are still like, okay, so since we’re not outsourcing stuff, who, how are we taking care of house cleaning? And what we did is we put every single job on a PostIt. We have ended a post, we have it on a poster and we moved jobs and everybody is re is, 

Gina: and 

Tami: it’s not clean the bathroom.

It’s like scrub the sink, scrub the toilet scrubbed of this. And it’s like, Because it makes it to where every, have you heard of that book? Fair play.  it’s good because it’s about distribution of labor at home. And the idea is that each person takes one thing and they take it from idea all the way through a completion.

Gina: I love this. Right. 

Tami: And so, but I just want everyone to know. Like we can reframe things and make them work for us. One of my favorite books is the, the art of possibility. Do you know that book? So great. It’s by Rosenman stone, Zander and Benjamin Zander. And one of the chapters is called it’s all made up.

Okay. Right. And so that’s the thing, all of these contracts that we talking about are made up. So if the construct isn’t working for you, like change the thing. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. and we don’t like, I think what you were saying in the beginning, we just don’t check in. We pretend like something we agreed on when we were 24 is still going to be applicable when we’re 54 and we’ve gone through three career changes, two houses, a few dogs, you know, and like lost a parent.

Like our life is entirely different, right? Like you’ve got a different healthcare needs and. Our schedules are different. All of it. so of course we need to adjust. and I think all too often, folks, don’t very intentionally create those agreements in the beginning. We just kind of default into them.

Like somehow you ended up being the one who does all the laundry. We don’t know how we got there. And five years later, you’re like, why the fuck am I doing all the laundry? Why don’t you ever pick up a piece of underwear? Right. Like that kind of thing. But we’ve never talked about it to get there. And so we don’t know how to talk about it, to undo it, you know, or to redo it.


Tami: One of the funniest questions I get is your husband’s in charge of your daughter’s hair. And I’m like not the doing of it, but I don’t ever take her to her haircut. I also don’t take her to the dentist, but I’ll take her to the dentist. I don’t take her to get her haircuts. Like I just was like, that’s your job.

I don’t want to do that. 

Gina: Yeah, that’s funny the opposite. So he is the regular, like the daily routine ritual. He’s better at showing up for that stuff. And I’m the, like, excetera like the call, the gutter cleaning people. And have we changed the filters in the something and like all this like random one off all the time kind of stuff.

Cause that’s bad. I’m just better at tracking is my skillset. Right. And I mean, at least quarterly. One or the other of us is like, Hey, are you still good? Like, you know, come tax season. I do all of our taxes and that’s not in my skillset. And so he clears a bunch of space so that I can focus. Right. He takes on some other stuff.

Right. Like, but there’s this ebb and flow. And we’re checking in about like, does it still work for you to do the taxes? Are you okay with the fact that you’ve done all the dishes for 11 years? Okay. Alright, fine. 

Tami: Great. We had the, he did all the dishes for awhile because he, cause he was tired of me not doing it.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And he finally was like, just don’t even bring them to the kitchen. I’ll take care of it. And I was like, this is like a dream come true. So then after a couple of years he’s like, I totally didn’t think you would take that seriously. And I was like, I just believe what you say. 

Gina: Yeah. We also have a rule about, if you’re not participating in the workload, you don’t get input in how it’s done.

Right? So like, I don’t do the dishes. I don’t choose the dish detergent. I don’t get to say it’s not being done on my timeline or how we load their unloads, the dishwasher or whatever. Like he does it. And if I want to start giving input, I can participate in that, in the workload. Right. 

Tami: That made me catch my breath.

Yes, it’s so funny. Cause a lot of times, especially when my daughter was little, we definitely were in the divide and conquer for a long time. And people were like, but how are you still doing X and Y? And I was like, I married a true partner. I trust him implicitly to make sure that she’s alive and well cared for in my absence.

However long that absence is because I married a grownup. 

Gina: Yeah, and that brings us back to both of what we were saying about boundaries and self care, right? Some of self care is saying, this is not mine, or I can’t do everything. Can’t always be done all my way, or I will stir myself crazy because I’ll feel like I need to control or have it done that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There’s not enough time to do all the things. You know, and I see a lot of folks like get so anxious and resentful because they are trying to do all the things all the right ways, all the perfect. Right. And there’s just not room for that. So some of really good self care is saying like, that’s not my thing.

Or I don’t want to take that on or taking that on will burn me out. It’s an energy suck. Right. So, 

Tami: it’s funny cause it’s on any gram one. So my any ground ones thing is like perfection and doing everything right. And so. But so my inner work is deciding when that makes sense. And when it doesn’t like, do I need an, a plus in laundry and a plus and bed making an, a plus and childbearing like, 

Gina: yeah, 

Tami: there’s not enough a pluses in the world.

So I need to pick and choose where I need to be strategic with my time and my energy. Yeah. So that I don’t turn into a giant asshole and ruin everyone’s life. I mean, that’s what it comes down to like, Nobody wants me to be a resentful jerk. 

Gina: Yeah, no, 

Tami: yeah. It’s funny. I’m laughing. Cause I’m like I almost said, especially me and I was like, Nope, I have some real big buy in for my family because the Enneagram is very new to our family.

And it’s only been a couple of years, but when I read like the description of the Enneagram in disintegration, My husband went, Oh my God, that’s never going to change. My daughter was like, are they following you around on a really bad day? And I was like, so we really need to take care of this so we can all be happier, like, okay.

Yeah, surrender into this. Isn’t going to change. So let’s make the changes that are necessary. I just I’m sitting here realizing that we’re celebrating a giant anniversary too. Like we, this weekend, 25 years of dating. 

Gina: Wow. Oh 

Tami: yeah. November 20, 20 years married. Whoa, 

Gina: cool. How are you going to honor that?

Tami: We’re going to get out of town because we’re escaping some heat. it’s so funny. The other day, my friend was like, are you getting a babysitter? I’m like during a pandemic? No, we’re not. how are we going to celebrate? We’re going to hang out. We’re going to go on a hike. We’re going to have a meal.

We’re going to laugh. We’re going to play games. We’re just gonna, like, I feel like we’ve been renegotiating our contract all along. Of our relationship. You know, we have family meetings every week, so we’re really trying to be intentional with how we are, being with each other in the close quarters.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Even more so, since it’s funny, we have a tendency to do family meetings, infrequently, but the moment that Pam Demmick hit and we are in shelter in place because you know, California’s numbers are still going up. we have been doing family meetings every week. And it just now just comes down to, we ask each member of the family, what do you need this week to be successful?

What do you need 

Gina: this and that so that we 

Tami: can make sure that everybody’s needs are being met because when people’s needs, aren’t being met, it’s when, like all the stuffing falls out of their head and you’re like, Now we have to stop everything to do this. Yeah. And so we even asked for nine year old, like, what do you need this week?

And she’ll say, I need connection. Like this, I need attention like this. We’re like, okay. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: thanks for being upfront because now we know what we need to give in order to get what we need for us. Which is you being more independent, you being a player in this family system. 

Gina: Yeah. I love that. The way that, that you frame those questions.

My three came out of my training with Bernay. And we ask, what is it success look like in this, whatever time period or experience, what are your hopes and what are your concerns? And then what is meaningful support gonna look like? Right. And that’s that like creates our whole, I do that in sessions.

I do that. Like, I mean, that frames out experiences so nicely, I think about 

Tami: right. 

Gina: what are my worries? and then, yeah. What does meanings of full support actually look like? Not just, what do I think it’s going to feel like, right? 

Tami: Yeah, totally. But what’s your favorite social media channel? Like what do you, where do you hang out on social media?

Gina: You got an Instagram. I just added Twitter or not Twitter. I just added pick, talk to my phone and I don’t quite understand it yet. But I think I will soon and I think I’m going to really like it. Okay. That’s my prediction. 

Tami: Okay. I’m sticking it. Cause you know, reels just came out on Instagram and I think that here’s my prediction.

I think it’s going to replace tick doc. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Maybe not for the super young people, but those aren’t my people like yeah. You know what I mean? 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: But your people might be there. 

Gina: maybe I feel a little like, ticktock is kind of young. a lot, but, especially in queer community, 

Tami: that’s what I was going to say.

Gina: Young people tend to run a lot of things, especially stuff like that. And so, 

Tami: but you could be like an elder of the, of the education sort. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. What’s your TV, favorite TV show past present and or future 

Gina: I’m on such. I came to this late, but I cannot stop. You’re catching me in the middle of a binge.

Like I watched an episode already this morning of shits Creek. I just, I came to it late and I’m in the third season right now and I. I don’t know why it took me so long, but it is right where I need to be right now. It’s so good. 

Tami: I watched part of the first episode, I was like, is this for me? Is it for me?


Gina: stick with it. I would even maybe just let yourself buzz through a fair amount of the first season, just to get the context, but by the second season, I mean, the actors, the like the comedy of, The Levy’s and, Catherine O’Hara right. That’s her last name? Yeah. 

Tami: she’s a genius. 

Gina: Brilliant. Yeah.


Tami: Beetle juice. That’s Catherine O’Hara is like, she made beetle juice. What it is. Yeah. Do you ever see that movie? 

Gina: Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s a thousand times slumber party. Cause as a kid, if you, if you want to skip ahead to just really get a good sampling, there’s an episode called family dinner in season two that I feel like if you don’t like that episode or you’re like, nah, after that, then it’s not for you, but 

Tami: okay.

Alright. I’m I find it hilarious. I’m here. I’m here for it. I, and I think I’m like, everybody loves it. I’m like, what? Why don’t I get it? Why isn’t it for me now? I know now I know that the first season sets up what is to come. I should not think that genius is going to happen right out of the gate.

Gina: Yeah. There’s a Turkey hunt episode there. I’ll send you a list. There’s a couple episodes. I’d watch that first for sure. If you want to 

Tami: make sense. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Gina, this is the one question that I would literally watch inside the actor’s studio for. I didn’t care about the, the craft of acting I wanted to know what is everyone’s favorite swear word, which, you know, what’s your favorite swear word, 

Gina: love the versatility of fuck.

I just, you know, I love that it is. It can show up for you just about anywhere you want it. I just watched, that, I don’t know if I’m supposed to say WAP video, right? Is that what? Yeah. and it’s not, swearing, but people have been talking about it because it seems so vulgar. And I’m like, actually, this is the same conversation people were having what salt and pepper, you know, 30 years ago, or whatever of like, Oh God, women of color have owned their sexuality and.

Naming explicitly what they want the way men have been for however long. Anyway. So that’s on my mind right now, I’m thinking about. Naughty talk. but my favorite ever moment of swearing, I worked at a Christian college for a little while that had some very, strict rules about behavior and what was appropriate or not appropriate.

Swearing was not appropriate. And one of my most pious young students, was playing a game. We were like, like camp. Kind of style games with teams and stuff, and she got stuck and couldn’t think of something and out of her mind, this like very collected. hi. Boundaried around her language.

Woman said, fuck me in the face 

Tami: was like 

Gina: the whole room, just like burst out because it was amazing. Then that could come out of her. It was so out of character. 

Tami: Right. You’re like, what did we do? yeah. Which he was just like, 

Gina: so stuck in wanting to win this game. I said, she shouted, fuck me in the face really loud.

And so forever. That’s one of my favorite, like exclamations, they haven’t found great uses for it all the time. Cause it feels like it’s the Supreme sort of, and I love it. 

Tami: Yeah. and again, given the context of where that came out, you’re like, I feel like my work is done here. I’m going to go. I’m going to is going to get fired for this.

It’s not useful. It’s probably going to be me that story with me. Forever. Yeah. I love it. I wonder how that story sits with her and her shame cycle 

Gina: of life. Yeah. Yeah. I have watched most of the students, I worked with back then unfold into. far less rigid, let’s say versions of themselves now.

And I’m happy to see that. not that religion is always bad. but rigidity doesn’t seem to serve anyone. I have yet to find a way that a lot of rigidity serves folks well, so it’s wonderful to watch them relax. Yeah. 

Tami: yeah. Yeah. And I want to say, but I know it can’t, it’s not true is that. Age, mellows people, but that’s not necessarily true.

I know some super uptight people in their seventies, so 

Gina: yeah. Yeah. I think one of the great things about this school is that they did have a very strong belief and, I think they would have said it was diversity. That led folks down a path to more social justice stuff and like exposure to more interactions with different people helps you relax into seeing, Oh, there’s lots of ways to do things my way.

Isn’t the only way it might be right for me, but, huh, that’s right for you. That’s interesting. Right. it like helps you soften, I think quite a bit. 

Tami: It’s so interesting. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area in the seventies and eighties. And so, I feel like that person, I’m the person who was like born on third base and they’re like, why isn’t everybody here?

Because I’m like, of course there’s this. And of course there’s that. And then I realized, wow. And also not that far from where I grew up. Cause I’m in Sacramento now. Like there is, there’s, it’s much more segregated in places and I’m like, wow. And this is in California. So 

Gina: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t, I, where I grew up, we, We had to drive.

Now, this isn’t true. They do have stoplights. We had to drive quite a ways is to practice in our driver’s ed class with stoplights. That was not a thing in my hometown, nor most of my home town in McComb County. and it might 

Tami: drive to stoplights to practice stopping and traveling 

Gina: in a city. We had to go to the city then.

Practice stoplights. And I remember learning parallel parking and thinking, when the fuck am I ever going to use this as a dumb skill, who’s going to need parallel parking. I was like, who needs this? And I, yeah, you need it, all the time. And, I, we had to go. my church group, I grew up in a UCC church and part of the confirmation process is, attending services and other denominations.

And so we had to drive to Chicago three hours away, to experience anything other than Catholic Lutheran or my UCC congregation. So, Yeah. I mean, it’s a lot of folks grow up in little bubbles where they don’t and even within cities, sometimes I know when I lived in Seattle, my bubble, I remember shocked, Al Gore didn’t win the election.

I was like, who voted for him? I don’t know anyone who didn’t vote for Al Gore. And clearly a lot of people didn’t, you know, like w but I was so shocked to my core. Because my bubble right. Had become pretty rigid about who I was or wasn’t interacting with. So I say, 

Tami: yeah. Dina, thank you for spending this morning with me.

I’m glad that we finally got to connect. Not just be a video, but now we actually talked to each other’s faces in real time. That is amazing. I love technology. 

Gina: I like sharing some real time with you and actually getting to see your face. It’s so affirming to when you have that feeling like you were saying, you have that feeling online of like, Oh, I think I would really like this person.

And then when you meet them in it, true. I really do like this. 

Tami: We have so much in common. You’re like, yeah. I’m super excited to get your book. Remind everybody, the name of your book 

Gina: love more fight, less a communication workbook forever couple. 

Tami: I just feel like there’s a period. Like I’m pretty sure everyone can use that, especially since we are so loving, we’re spending so much loving time with our people.

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Maybe that can be on everyone’s holiday list. Maybe. I think I’m going to think I’m going to do a gift guide and put it on there because it’s fun. Yeah. Seriously. One of the things I have said repeatedly to my partner over the shelter in place time is, Oh my God. I’m so glad we got most of our shit worked out before we were forced to 

Gina: live 

Tami: in the 

Gina: same four 

Tami: walls for months at a time.

Yeah, that is not everyone’s experience. 

Gina: You will like, one of the compliments I’ve been getting about the book is, they, the publisher had an idea of how they wanted me to start it. And I was like, no, I want to start with like self-awareness before we get into any of them, the relationship B stuff.

Cause. Like we don’t have that. We’re not, there’s no use in trying to do relationship work. And so, you know, again, it like starts with self care, self relationship, self trust, self Acuff, accountability, all of that is so, so important. So, and 

Tami: don’t you think that’s important or how I’m reading that is? Is when you have one per one whole person. Plus another whole person, then you get a separate entity called a relationship. There’s no like becoming one and all that. So I’m like, I don’t want to be a fraction of something. And I certainly don’t want to try to fill up this other person as a fraction. I definitely need these things to be, I need there to be entities.

Gina: It’s that 

Tami: sovereignty piece that I’m like three nations. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, It’s just so clear to me, like our work is like really good buddies and I really, I love that I was able to have a call with someone where I took all these notes for myself. Now I have at least six more books that I want to read.

And, so really beautiful language. that I’m gonna, I love this. If you’re not running it’s running you. I wrote that down cause I have some thinking to do on that for myself. Yeah. Good. 

Tami: Alright, friends, go find Gina on the Instagrams. Go to, Hey gina.com. And until next week, remember that you matter too.