EP 75: Get It Launched with Michelle Ward

EP 75: Get It Launched with Michelle Ward

About Michelle:

Michelle Ward, CEO of 90 Day Business Launch, is a business coach who guides creative, multi-passionate women to become entrepreneurs. Since 2008, she’s helped hundreds of these women launch their dream businesses so they can get the freedom, authenticity and fulfillment they’re seeking in their day-to-day lives.

You may have seen or heard her in New York Magazine, The Huffington Post, Etsy, Newsweek, Freelancers Union, USA Today, the Forbes Top 100 Websites for your Career list, EO Fire, Real Talk Radio, The Unmistakable Creative or hundreds of other media outlets. She’s the teacher of Create Your Dream Career and Ditch Your Day Job, which were watched by tens of thousands of people on CreativeLive.

When she’s not coaching, teaching or speaking, she can be found building a fort for her little girl, sitcom-binging with her husband, strumming her ukulele or belting out show tunes.

Show links: 


Tami: Good morning. Good morning. I’m so happy. You’re here. I’m so happy to be. Oh my God. You guys, we have done Epic calendaring to make, and I am so happy to connect with you this morning, Michelle, can you tell my listeners, who are you and what do you do in the world?

Michelle: Yes, I can. I’m Michelle Ward. I am the CEO of 90 day business launch and I help creative multi-passionate women launch their dream businesses with the maximum impact and effectiveness and minimal stress in just 90 days. 

Tami: Okay. I’m sitting here and I’m like, what’s that dream come true as this? So how does that even happen?

90 days? So what are some of the things that you help people with? 

Michelle: Yeah, so, you know, the women that I work with they come to me knowing they want to be business owners and knowing. The business they want to start. They sometimes don’t know their niche. They don’t know the offer. They don’t know the marketing plan.

They don’t have all the ins and outs. That’s why the program exists. That’s why I’m here. But they’ll say to me, I want to be a nutritionist or I want to be a graphic designer, or I want to be a creativity coach. They know what they want to start and how they want to work with people. And you know, it’s a blessing and a curse of being an entrepreneur, wanting to be an entrepreneur.

I think 20, 21, because there’s so much free stuff to get you there and like, yay. And also, Oh my God, it’s overwhelming. It is so easy to go down rabbit holes that you never get yourself out of. And because I work with women who are. So smart and so ambitious. They want to do things perfectly and they get in their own way.

So they’re taking the overwhelm, the perfectionism, the procrastination that they have been suffering from for months, if not years, I had a recent client who was like, I’ve been wanting to start my business for 10 years. And we take that. And push it out of the way. So that we start the program with what I call a one perfect day, where you get all of those pieces.

What is, who’s your ideal client? What are their challenges? What do they want to walk away with? What’s your business name? What’s that first offer? What’s the pricing. What’s the onboarding. What’s the initial marketing plan on and on. And in the three months that lead up that, that follow that one perfect day.

I give you the community. I give you the weekly calls. I give you the milestones of. Here’s what we need to do to make it happen. And these women need to practice B minus work and they need to, I tell them you need to make wobbly CEO decisions. I will not let you go down these rabbit holes. I will not let you spin yourself into procrastination and perfectionism.

You follow the map that I set out for you and you lean on the community and me for support. You’re going to get to where you want to go. Well, 

Tami: what I love about this is as somebody who’s been slowly, very part-time very imperfectly working on my business for a decade or a decade is that most people need accountability.

Most people are like, if somebody could just give me the roadmap, okay. You’re like, here’s the roadmap. Here’s the accountability. And here’s the big, bad secret. Nobody wants to hear. Imperfect action takes you further than a perfect logo. The perfect is on your website. You might not even need a website to start your business.

In fact, I started my coaching business a couple of years before I got my fancy 

Michelle: website. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Because I needed to know that I wanted to do the thing. So, I didn’t think  told people I was doing the thing, but I quietly did the thing for years. 

Michelle: Yes. Yes. And I don’t disagree with that route and I feel that a light switch gets flipped on when there is a website and there is, you know, an elevator pitch and there is a clear.

Offer and mission and message that my clients are that a new business owner could say to someone go to my web website at 90 day business, lunch.com. And you know, that person going there will say, Oh, she’s for real this time. Right? Like know, or like, this is such a great first impression and it, doesn’t not, you’re a hundred percent, right.

It does not need to be fancy. It does not need to be. I mean, we just had I’m halfway through the group that I’m running right now. And we have like, branding week and I’m like you have one week, you pick your colors, you pick your fonts. Like, you know, I brought on a former client of mine who is a branding designer and she gave them tips and tricks.

And you know, one of the participants was like, what do you mean we have to do this by Sunday? I’m like, yeah, That’s it’s done. I mean, you could torture yourself and do it more, but it doesn’t matter. As long as things are readable, as long as they look cohesive. Yeah. And I’m going to tell you if something so really ugly or not legible or whatnot, but yeah, this shouldn’t take so long cause it’s, doesn’t, it ultimately doesn’t matter.

But having that public space that makes you as a new business owner feel as confident. And professional as possible right out of the gate. I feel like makes a difference mentally. And it’s all the mental stuff, the emotional stuff. It has kept me in business since 2008. For sure. I 

Tami: have to say I misspoke.

Yeah. I don’t think you have. When I said you don’t have to have a website. What I meant was you don’t have to have. The capital w capital site, because I’ve had a website since 2009, but I quote fancy website until 2017. 

Michelle: W I’m with you on that? 

Tami: I claimed all my four mains. I laid down the law, everyone, and their mother is like, for some reason, every single time I see somebody laying in Shavasana and yoga.

I think of you. I’m like, well, that’s because I talked about restorative yoga for eight years, right. As a deep form of self care. So yeah. Oh 

Michelle: my God, Michelle. Yes. Yes. 

Tami: Well, I’m very excited, but I’m also a little bit like, wait a second. What happened to the thing that you’re known for 

Michelle: when I grow up coach?

Yes. Yes. It’s so funny. So cute. You said I’m known for it. I feel like it in my part of the internet, because I have also been around Tammy since 2008 as the, when I grow up coach And really when I started my business, I got my life coaching certification. I decided to niche myself by being a career coach.

And when I started it was off the back of me deciding to no longer pursue acting as a profession. And that was my dream forever. I went to NYU, I went to school of the arts, prestigious and musical theater. And. I was in my mid to late twenties when I said, you know, I don’t want to be an actor when I grow up.

And what am I going to be? And people would, whenever I said that out loud, at that point in time, people would laugh because I was a 28 year old woman saying, what do I want to be when I grow up? But it felt very deep to me and very personal and very important. And I think too, because I was pursuing that profession for.

You know, 20 years, as much as you could pursue something that you love when you’re six or whatever. But I was pursuing it that long. It was unacceptable for me to get a job that I didn’t feel passionate about, that I didn’t feel energized by that. I didn’t feel fulfilled by it. And I really, I was not the optimistic person that.

So many people know and love at this point, I was definitely less optimistic. I think I would ever find something that would light me up as much as performing did. But when I thought about basically becoming the career coach that I needed at the time That I couldn’t find for myself. I mean, I was the person who like bought what color is your parachute?

And my best friend at the time also bought it. And after it like a month, she figured out this really niche form of marketing that she wanted to go into. And she started applying for these jobs in this niche form of marketing. And after three exercises, I threw the book across the room. It just was not, it did not speak to me.

It did not hold me and my values and what I wanted. And I felt. So despondent, like, can anyone help me? So I thought I was going to work with actors who wanted to get out of the business and find their grown-up careers. And what I found instead, which was way more rewarding in a lot of ways, I found mostly creative women who wanted to get into creative careers.

So I went from being a career coach for creatives. To a career coach for creative women to a business coach for creative women. Because I found that thread after a few years in my business of everyone I’m working with is either a business owner or wants to be one. And. I decide I made the really tough decision, like, you know, mid 20, 21, you know, nothing was happening that I had really put down the discover work that I was doing for so long for my people it was hard on on a lot of levels and 90 day business launch was a program that I had been running since 2016.

And I thought about what it would be like to kind of go all in on this program. What that would mean for me as a business owner, for my personal goals, for my professional goals for the bigger impact I want to have in the world. So I really feel like I could help a thousand creative women launch their dream businesses in the next eight years by going all in on 90 day business launch.

And it’s something that’s. Scalable. And I think way more easier for me to manage. And I decided to shed my, when I grow up coach name and the business umbrella that came with it and go all in on 90 day business, long shifts still feels like incredible for me to say, because the, when I grew up coaches is who I still feel that I am.

Tami: Well, I love every bit of it because I know that. I spent a lot of time talking to people about getting time and energy back. Yes. As a form of self care. And one of the things that people often tell me about self-care is they feel like, Oh my God, it’s just one more thing. And I’m like, wow. PR friends self-care needs PR because usually it’s about subtraction, not as.

Yes about loving your darling so much that you’re like, okay, which darling do I love the actual most? Cause that’s the one I’m going to spend all my time with. Yes. 

Michelle: Well, and it’s so interesting you say that, right? Because I wouldn’t even necessarily say that. Like I love the launch piece the most. I think that’s part of what really raise me up.

But like I loved my, my, when I was working on the discovery piece for my clients, I love that. I didn’t love the sales part of that. Just like there is a piece of acting where it’s like, Still love performing. I didn’t like the business of show business. The discovery piece was super, super hard for me to sell for years and years.

And I try, I forced it, I pushed it. I tried to make it work. And it just ultimately like didn’t really get off the ground. I also love, and I still have like privately on the side of a six month mastermind that I do with. Former clients and direct referrals for new ish business owners. I love helping them build their client bases.

I love helping them build their businesses, but also like I don’t want to be selling that anymore. So I think that’s part of it too. And I love that piece of, you know, you can’t see it as just one more thing. I think of the self care routine that I have every morning and like, it is not a one Oh one more thing to do.

It is like this integral to my mental and physical health alike. Everything else needs to get out of the way for this morning routine. Otherwise I’m done. I might as well just go back to bed. Okay. So 

Tami: two to that brings me to the next question, which is how does self care affect your work? But I also want to touch on I know that you had your job while you had a regular nine to five, while you built your business.

And you also, because you’re fancy also. We’re like, you know, I think I’m, I think I’m gonna get cancer 

Michelle: extra I’m extra. 

Tami: So ha so I would love to hear both of those things because something you might, so many of my listeners are what I would call civilians. There are people who yeah. They my clients. And a lot of my listeners are people who have jobs, where they’re paid by other people.

They go to the job and they want to feel good in their daily life. And I do have a segment of people who are like, and I have a civilian job now and I would like to build a business. So you’re qualified to talk to both groups. So to hear you talk a little bit about 

Michelle: that. Okay. So the first thing that pops into my head is that like, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a traditional job.

I mean, I knew for me, like the first thing I recognized when I went to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up that, you know, 27, 28 years old the common denominator of me being unhappy and everything I had leading up to that was like me. And the first thing I realized was I needed to be an entrepreneur if I want to be happy.

And that was the last, that was a lie. I resisted that with every ounce of my being, because I wanted. A grownup job for the first time in my life. I wanted, you know, for an actor, like I had all of these day jobs and I wanted these, you know, unethical thing, like a salary and a paycheck every two weeks that, you know, could actually pay my bills you know, 

Tami: satisfaction while working for some, for something I would ask, I 

Michelle: just knew.

I just knew. I wasn’t finding that. You know what I mean? Like I just knew, like I wanted the, I wish I still wish, like, you know, I could have gone through what color is your parachute video? Like, you’d be so happy being an accountant. Like, yes. Thank you. Like that’s the easy path, right? I spent the hard path trying to be an actor.

Now you’re gonna make me, you know, be an entrepreneur and try to build this from scratch. Like, but w. The thing that I say to my clients and my readers and anyone who follows me I am not a like owning your fitness is just like sunshines and rainbows and you know, all the time. No, it’s not, no, it’s not stop it.

This is not like girl boss hustle all day mompreneur BS. You have to pick your stress preference. And for me, my stress preference is as a business owner, I would rather have the stress of like, Getting my next dollar finding my next clients, like, no, I go this next launch, shouldn’t be going to be people.

Are they God. And like having to do that all myself and not know where the next dollar is coming from. And thankfully, you know, 12 years into business, I trust very much that like the dollars will be there and the people will be there even though I suffer imposter syndrome, like everyone else. You know, and still that, yeah, that fear of, Oh my God, it’s all going to fall apart at any second.

And that’s my stress preference so that I could call my own shots. I could work with who I want. I could have an unlimited, you know, income cap. Like I don’t need to answer to anyone, but there are people that say, Oh my God, I don’t want my stress preference is to just follow it. Someone else dictates.

I, I do like go into the office and leave when they want so that I could have the, you know, Paycheck of a certain amount of money every two weeks that I could count on and all of those other things So I think that, you know, if you’re one of those people that’s listening that has been thinking about being a business owner and it’s a good way to kind of weigh out that decision of, do you really want to commit to this?

Do you really want to start it? Is it really something that’s happening? And for me. When I realized I want to be an entrepreneur back in 2007, I want to be an entrepreneur. And the way I’m going to go about that is to get my life coaching certification. Which I still laugh at, like who, who let me do that seems so like irresponsible.

Right. And I lived in New York city. I lived with my boyfriend, who’s my husband now. And You know, the first thing that I did to reach the school was not like, Oh, let me just quit my job and go take these classes and try to build up my business right away. Like, no, I had bills. I had responsibilities that was not acceptable to me.

And so the first thing I did was. What I call now get a brake job because the job I was in at the time was on paper or really great fit for me. And I had a boss that made me psychosomatic. And it was so draining. It was so exhausting. I felt like I was verbally abused. Most of the days I was in that job.

And I knew I could not build my business and get my certification while I was in that job, working under. That bully. And so the first thing I did was to get a new job that I felt, and I call it a bridge job because you know, you’re there to bring you someplace else, but it is, it gives you the money that you need in order to not stress about money and as much of your time and energy as you could have.

So I went from like a position where. I was verbally abused all the time. I was expected to be on a Blackberry answering cause it was 2007 answering emails on Sundays at 11 o’clock at night, I would have this needless travel. It was all consuming to having a job. Where, you know, I clocked in at nine and I clocked out at six and they pay you overtime.

So they didn’t want you to take it. I was forced to take a lunch hour every day. I didn’t have a Blackberry, I wasn’t on call. Like once I left, I was done. And I even got a $10,000 salary bump. So I stayed in that job for two years and seven months while I got my certification while I built my business, while I worked 50 hours a week, while I got engaged while I got married.

And I realized in December, It was 2009, like a year or so into, you know, the people we had back then financially, globally that I had pretty much saved enough money that if I gave my notice three months later, when I got my bonus which was, you know, another grownup thing I thought I wanted I would basically have five months severance.

And at that point I said, Okay, I’m ready to go out on my own. So I’ve been full-time since March of 2010. I haven’t had to look back. Thank God, knock on wood. And you know, I got my cancer diagnosis in November of 2011, so I was not going through day jobs, certification, business, building cancer at the same time the cancer came later.

Bonus gift. It was a year. Oh yeah, it was great. It was like right when I N I mean, There’s so much of it as I look back to be grateful for, but that experience, because I mean, I heard these horror stories of women and I was 33 at the time. Like I was in a, you know, Facebook group and connected to other young women who got a similar diagnosis and like they were being fired from their jobs and their employers were just like counting on them, not to Sue them because they couldn’t.

They didn’t, they weren’t going to let them take leave, or they had to come in after every chemo treatment, because they didn’t have enough sick days. You know, for me, like I was in business for a year and a half for myself at that point. So I kind of had my footing. And you know, when I got that diagnosis, of course it was like right after.

I planned, I spent like three days with my assistant at the time. And we planned out all of 2012, like every single date of every single thing and programs opening this day, a lot of blah. And like then cancer came and it was the ha so now I never planned more than 90 days in advance. I think that’s part of my self-care too.

But you know, I handled that. Differently than I would. If I was still at that job and whatnot. So it was a huge shock obviously to any 33 year olds or anyone in general to get a breast cancer diagnosis at that point. 

Tami: Absolutely. And I’m so happy that you obviously made it through your cancer and that you have continued to.

Thrive in your business. So you talked earlier about your non-negotiable morning. Yes. So, so, and it’s funny because how I usually phrase this question is how does self care affect your work? And so when I ask you in that way, Michelle what happens if you don’t do self-care and then what happens if you do self care?

Michelle: Okay. So I am. Whew someone that I feel like, especially with the cancer diagnosis and FYI, the cancer came back in 2015. But I saw it again. Okay. But it’s been around twice in the last nine years. And, you know, self care, I feel like especially the last time it came around, you know, you have, I call them the begrudging life lessons where you’re like, I wish I would learn this any other way, but this is the way that I learned it.

So I guess I better take this lesson in between my first two cancer bouts. I made a lot of. I guess we could say like kind of more superficial changes. Yeah. Where I switched all my makeup and, you know, skincare stuff to natural products. And I stopped eating meat for the most part and was eating, you know, very clean.

And I started Being more athletic, which I still laugh at because I don’t consider myself athletic in any way, shape or form, but exercise kind of became important to me because all of the studies showed that it decreases your risk of cancer recurrence. And so I did all of these things that and I didn’t really get to the root.

I feel like of. What I should have addressed back then, too. Which is that like, I’m definitely a workaholic. I’m definitely a productivity junkie. I’m definitely someone who and I think it’s because I throw up a little bit in my mouth when I say this, but I’m someone who like, I love my work so much.

I derive a lot of meaning from my work. But that to me just meant, like I better be at my desk, you know, I better like wake up in the morning. And take a shower, have my cereal and get to my office. I better turn on my computer right away. I’d better sit in this seat until it’s five o’clock or six o’clock.

And then that’s the acceptable time. And I leave like no lunch break, no more, no nothing. Just productivity machine for like eight, nine hours a day. And I’m not someone who overworks myself to death. I was never a proponent of like, let’s work till midnight or work all weekend and never have a day off.

Like I am anti. Hustle culture like that. But that was always my priority. And my, the tape that was in my head was always like, you don’t have time. You don’t have time, you don’t have time. You don’t have time. So once I started, once I had that second diagnosis and I realized what I really have been neglecting.

Was this limiting belief that I have this motivation piece, this like totally false belief that, you know, busy equals productive equals successful. So I just need to be dizzy all the time. And I wasn’t really dealing with the other internal pieces that became really evident that I needed to deal with.

So I worked with a coach at the time and she really helped me see that like, I needed to carve out a very intentional morning during my work week that if I don’t have this intentional morning, my chances of spiraling into the like, Oh, I have to pee. No, don’t get up. You could wait. You have to send this email like that kicks in much more quickly and easily email emergency lie.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Big time. And I still sometimes catch myself like, Whoa, why am I not. Going to pay, like what I could come back, what, like what I still feel like I still feel that so in the mornings now I have my alarm set for six 40. I go downstairs, I feed the kid if need be. I feed the cat, I make the coffee, I have my breakfast.

And then I do some sort of moving my body. So, Three times a week during the week, I go for a run, usually with a partner, socially distance. I have a running buddy. So I meet her at seven 30. But days I’m not running with her, I’ll do a strength training you know, 20, 30 minutes strength training, and then a stretch.

I’m moving my body in some way here in my house. And then I stretch. I shower, I get trust. And before I opened up my computer, I also, I took email off my phone. So it’s not even an issue. I did that a little while ago. Before I look at my computer, before I look at my email for do anything, I come into my office.

I put on my diffuser, I shut my office doors. And. I opened up the shine app, which I highly recommend. And I usually do their daily shine, which is usually a five to 15 minute meditation. And if I, and then I start my day and if I don’t do those pieces, things just wind up feeling real bad and getting out of control real quick.

You know, what’s crazy 

Tami: is how many people, well, okay. Th this I’m going to be captain 

Michelle: obvious for a second. 

Tami: Back in March, when everybody went from, I go somewhere to work to now I work at my house. Yeah. The first few weeks everyone’s like, ha eating potato chips in my pajamas. And then after a while they’re like, Oh shit, we’re never going back to the, I got real panicky, probably around three weeks in where they’re like, Oh my God, it turns out potato chips and coffee for breakfast with a side of meat.

Gives me a tummy cake and I can’t concentrate. Why are these kids here? I’ve been telling people like you got to start in the morning. Yes. It’s setting your day. Intentionally. Not that intentional day. Yes. Again, it’s this mind. It’s like this Jedi mind trick. 

Michelle: Yes. Yes. And it’s, 

Tami: I know it feels like you don’t have time to really do well 

Michelle: and us now.

Right. I feel like the world kind of caught up to us where I was the weirdo where people were like, Wait a sec. So you own this business, like where’s your office, where do you meet your clients? I’m like online on zoom. I mean, you know, I’ve been using zoom for years. It’s like, this is how I do all of my clients, not all before COVID I would meet some clients in New York city sometimes.

And I live in Montclair, New Jersey, just outside the city. And sometimes I’d have local clients and we’d go to a coffee shop, but you know, 80%, 85% of my client work was online. So I felt like not that much change. For me, but it was interesting to see how my clients showed up were like, yeah, they were coming in sweat pants.

They were coming, you know, as they would usually come because I would have calls in the middle of the day they were coming they’re professional clothes. Cause they were at their day jobs or they would come you know, in their cars because that was the only private spot they could fit. And now like everyone’s coming kind of in their pajamas without their makeup and things have definitely changed.

People realize like, yeah, no, I need to get dressed. I mean, not to begin with like, I have to have a bra on torch all day. Like I have to like, that’s that to me is like, you are working like I’m wearing a bra, you are working. I can’t do it other than, and 


Tami: so there’s so many memes about like, Oh my God are.

Pants with zippers and high and bras in the way of the Dodo bird. And I’m like, I am wearing a bra, right? The second I will wear it all day. I haven’t put shoes on other than athletic shoes on. Yes. 

Michelle: I’m with you. Like, no. My slippers all day, but I’ve always been doing that, right. Like always been, I’m not doing anything that’s that different.

Although I liked when I was able to. Even just like go to the coffee shop. And that was part of my self-care routine too, was, you know, when you are in the same room of your house day in and day out all the time you go crazy. And so, so at least that was great. Says 

Tami: the extrovert, the extra. Yes, that’s 

Michelle: true too.

Actually. That’s true too. That’s true too. So like pre COVID, you know, my kid would get off the bus, like around four o’clock or whatever and where we’re a one car family. And so, you know, my husband was in charge of like, being, being with her and, you know, usually needing the car and like, I would have calls, I would stop my calls at around two o’clock.

Cause that was kind of my threshold. And I would gather up my stuff and I make my husband like drop me off at the coffee shop and he would come back and pick me up at like five, five 30, because I needed to get out of the house because I could not be here when she was here because she’s Screaming banshee, 

Tami: enthusiastic participant in her mother.


Michelle: that’s a better way to put it, yeah. Screaming in San Berson. And I just could not like I could not deal. And I just had to get out of my space and at least just being in the coffee shop you know, was like, okay, I think a really important self-care piece for me. And it’s really hard to not have that.

That outlet anymore. I just be here. I know that I’m going to be here while she’s here doing her schooling and you know, my husband’s trying to wrangle her and I’m just working with headphones. And especially as, I mean, you’re in California, I’m jealous, like here in New Jersey, as the weather gets colder, at least I would, you know, work outside on the patio.

I’d work outside and now it’s just kind of going away. So we’re all kind of stuck. 

Tami: Yeah. We had some We had a taste of that when we had non-stop wildfires. And I was like, okay, I can see why people on the East coast are real tense about the weather, 

Michelle: the winter. Right. 

Tami: But we have stay inside summer here.

And I just want to like really talk to this point of. Knowing yourself and knowing deeply what you need, because what you need is not what I need, which is not what 

Michelle: it’s 

Tami: super individual. So how did you come up with all of these things of like, this is going to scratch this itch in this way for me at this time also, Hey everyone, your self care need changes on your age, the season of your life, the season of.

The seasons. I don’t ever know how to say that, but like, why is the summer self-care very different than my winter self-care so, so how did you come to know yourself in the way that you’re like, I need these kinds of things in this way, at this time. 

Michelle: Oh, that’s so interesting. I’m trying to think back.

You know, I think that once I started running and I still laugh because I’m like, how did I become a runner? I was a kid going to like performing arts high school, half the day, junior and senior years because dance class counted as yeah. But, you know, and it was like, Oh my God, I don’t have to take shit.

But I started running. And I think that running to me, there, there is still that part of me. That’s like, I want that. I want that gold star. I want that checklist of like, there ha there have been studies that show that people that do 180 minutes a week of cardio. Have less of a chance of cancer recurrence than other people.

So I feel like that is a way to kind of sooth my self and my own anxiety about the cancer coming back, that I feel like I’m doing something towards it and that self care in a way really that’s 

Tami: future that’s present me taking care of future means. Yes. And that was a leap of faith in that we can’t control the future, but we can control we’re doing right now, 

Michelle: Q well, and then there was this great side effect.

Not runner’s high. I feel like I’ve never really experienced runner high. But it was this great side effect of like, this is how I relieve my stress. And it just became so apparent that when I wasn’t running or moving my body in some way, I was more stressed out and overwhelmed than I was otherwise.

So I think that was really big, even though I would not say like, I love running, I’m going to, I’m never running there. I found it’s never happening, but I run a few half marathons. But it’s definitely this is how I relieve my stress. So that was a big piece. And then, and the meditation, I mean, I think that was.

Another kind of related to the cancer journey where, you know, let’s practice gratitude, let’s practice visioning. I mean, I remember getting radiation back in 2016 and in my mind I would take that, you know, half hour that it was happening and just envision like. You know, ma like mad emoji faces, like leaving my brain and being replaced with like happy emoji face and hearts.

And I would picture that and like different areas of my body and meditation as what. I knew that it was an important piece of the puzzle to be more positive, to quiet my mind, to help with my anxiety. And it just became obvious that like, this is not something I should stop anytime soon.

So I think those are really the. The pieces that I’m going to be doing no matter what. And they might be taking different forms, but the second I dropped something, I’m just not too great. Yeah, my morning. 

Tami: Yeah, go ahead. Oh no. I was just going to say, like, I resist all things that are good for me 

Michelle: as we all do.

What is up with 

Tami: that? I don’t know. I it’s some human. I have this internal Jerk. Who’s like, you know, I don’t want to fuck you. Don’t tell me what to do. And I also have this, like, okay, but what would happen if, what if you took the advice of every health medical health expert in the world, and you just tried what they said, what would happen if you tried what they said?

And so that’s the only way I get to myself to do something is to like, do this. Thing, getting exercise meditation, stretching, going to sleep all of that, do it as an experiment. And I’m flabbergasted. At every experiment where I’m like, Holy moly, I feel so much better. I’m like, shit. It turns out there are some non-negotiable human design things that we all need.

You can deny them, especially in our twenties. I don’t know about you, but I just like the step rate. Of course, that was me too. Of course. Get up early, take a shower and then work all day and be like, Oh, I feel a little like crap. Let’s do it again. Like I used to be able to do that. And it w and in your twenties for a lot of people, your body’s like, I can’t believe we’re doing this again.

That’s crazy. Yeah. But around 30, my body was like, okay, we’re going to have a talk. I need to knock it off. And I turned 50 in March that shifts it’s non I know, 

Michelle: I know. I know. We’re experiencing that too. I mean, my, my husband is 44 and he’s like, You know, binge drinking certain beers. And he’ll just like, say to me over the past, like year or so, and just be like, Has beer stopped agreeing with me, like I’m trying to drink bottles.

I’m trying to drink cans. I’m trying to drink craft. I’m trying to drink this. Like nothing feels good and it’s like, ha, I have gone on the, you know, like red wine, sometimes white wine or Rose a bandwagon. Specifically, like, I feel like that’s a cancer piece too, of like, that’s kind of one of the only things you read, like yes.

Red wine, go ahead. Like, you’re fine. You know, even though yes. Moderate, whatever. But Oh my God, I barely have. Hard liquor. Like he has almost stopped drinking. Like, we’ll just say, feel good anymore. 

Tami: 44. I was like what happened if I got this? I know 

Michelle: my God, I know 

Tami: six years into it. I literally had one drink in six years.

Cause I accidentally had a drink at a house party and somebody offered me something and I thought it was a fancy juice. It was delicious. Grapefruit. Boozy drink. I was like, halfway in. I was like, Oh shit, this has booze in it. So it’s not like, Oh 

Michelle: my God. Right, right, right, right. But you know, quickly it affects you quickly.

Tami: Right. But the point is that I didn’t stop drinking because I was an alcoholic or I was like in danger of losing my job. I was just like I think Booz is turned on me. And I think I have to maybe break up with it. Yeah, it is a couple of months ago I had like a day of French fries and I basically ate like a teenager and then I was laying on the couch, holding my tummy and my daughter comes up and she’s like, When are you going to learn?

You can’t eat like that anymore. And I was like, 

Michelle: nine-year-old is bringing it home, man. 

Tami: I’m like, clearly not 

Michelle: like Hertz, but see at the same time. So, so we are recording this in the midst of, you know, election results, anxiety waiting. And like I made a disparaging remark about how I’ve been eating to my husband yesterday.

And he’s like, You got to stop. I am. I’m my main focus right now on my self is kindness and compassion, which I feel tie in so much to self care. And he heard me like disparaging, like, Oh my God, I eat pizza. And we’re eating all the Halloween candy and like this and this. And he’s like, yeah. You’re fine.

It’s okay. Like this, isn’t how you eat all the time. Like, we are all stressed out. We can eat our feelings this week and then we’ll like, get better. Yeah. Okay. I feel like we asked, right? Okay. Yes, it’s. Okay, great. Thank you. Like that’s okay. Right. 

Tami: Uncertainty. Does not help us make our best choices. However, self-compassion gets us back to, okay, wait, how do I feel right now?

I fast, not mentally, but physically I’m like, Ooh, maybe I’ll have a vegetable today because of, yeah, mine too. The insides I know. 

Michelle: Right, exactly. And you know what sometimes, and it’s funny, we went to like a. You know, nutritionist. Oh my gosh. It seems like forever ago, probably the beginning of the year.

And she was all about intuitive eating and we really learned about intuitive eating and I was just like, I don’t understand. I don’t understand, like if your body wants a cookie, she’s like, yeah, sometimes you probably just, it’s a cookie and it’s okay to have that cookie and like just eat the cookie.

Don’t feel bad about the cookie. Now, if you eat five cookies, what’s probably gonna happen is you might’ve intuitively wanted those five cookies, but you’re gonna. Realize that is not really what your body wanted. Like, and probably the next time, you know, you’re not going to eat five cookies because intuitively it’s your, body’s going to remember how it felt to eat five cookies and you’ll stick to just one.

And you know that there were some really interesting aha moments. I will 

Tami: say. I have I have a couple of close friends who are intuitive eating coaches, and it’s a pleasure to eat with them because we’re reading all the things and we’re not fast. Yes. And on election night I grabbed the cookie jar and some oat milk.

Cause I like dairy. I don’t drink, I don’t eat dairy because it, I am allergic to it. But I sat down in front of the TV, I ate two cookies and drank my milk and I put the lid on the cookie jar. Yeah. And the next morning my daughter got up and she’s like, who’s eating all the cookies. I was like, I had to come on.

Right. And she goes, Oh, that’s right. Cause there’s cookies left. And she’s like, how’d you did. How’s your tummy. I’m like, it’s fine. Oh my God, because that’s the thing, like, I feel like years ago I probably would have eaten a lot more. 

Michelle: Yes. And now I’m like, but to 

Tami: his kind yes. 

Michelle: To my tummy. Yes. And that’s a big self-care thing too.

Tami: Okay. So I’m doing the internal math. I think that you are an elder millennial. Oh, are you Jen? Are you. Super young gen X cause I’m hell a gen X. I 

Michelle: am a young gen X. Okay. I’m that there was an article I was born in 78. There was a weird article that probably only people born from like 78 to 80 read, because it was like, if you were born from 70 to 80, you’re in this weird, like not gen X, not millennial, kind of, it might’ve been like 78 to 82 or something like that.

But I’m is that 

Tami: group of people because they’re like, I fit nowhere. 

Michelle: I didn’t know where I fit nowhere. So yeah, definitely do not relate. I would, I relate more to gen X and millennials for sure. For sure. I 

Tami: love millennials, but I’m hella gen X. My question to you is I always try to put that this question in context, which is, what did you learn about self care growing up?

Like, how is self care handled in the house? The house of 

Michelle: origin. I hope my mom isn’t listening. She listens to everything that I do. She’s super supportive. Thank you, mom. I love you. You know, I was a kid that, and this is like, I feel like such an eighties thing. Right? I was a kid that was like, Schedule to an inch of my life.

You know, I could think back on like sixth grade and like, what was I doing extracurricularly in sixth grade? Like I was in select chorus. I was in all the shows. I had piano lessons. I had singing lessons. I was in Hebrew school. I was in dance class. Like that’s just at any given moment, all the things that I had.

Going, I was probably in some sort of acting class. I was in shows. I w like I was, I could just keep going on. So I think that there wasn’t a, like, there, there wasn’t a self care thing. There wasn’t a, like today we just need to rest and recharge there. Wasn’t a we’ve had our capacity let’s scale back.

Like none of, Oh, in sixth grade, I was probably also doing like, Softball. Yeah, I was doing softball even though I hated athletics and stuff. I like softball. It was fine, but I was doing that. There wasn’t a, like you’re at capacity. There’s too much going on. Like less. Prioritize let’s make a decision.

Let’s pick our top three. Like yeah. It was all the things, so that’s, that was super cultural. That was, 

Tami: and it also speaks to you being at the latter end of the generation because I was a latchkey kid, so we didn’t do shit 

Michelle: actually kid in sixth grade, but I still had all that stuff.

Like I still had all that stuff or like, I w I don’t know, my mom’s friends would pick me up and take me places, or I would stay late at school for choir practice or the play. And like, my mom would come after work and pick me up. Like, I still had all that stuff, even though I distinctly remember.

I mean, my mom would work when I was in like fifth or sixth grade. And I, when I came home right after school, I would come home and let myself in and watch punky booster and eat my snacks. And like, that would be. But it was 

Tami: sorry. I’m giggling about punky Brewster. And I watched punky Brewster with the kids.

I was a nanny for yeah. In the late eighties, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that’s, but isn’t it interesting. So what did your parents do for self care? Because mine didn’t do anything. I just say most people are like nothing. I mean, I have nothing 

Michelle: more nothing. I mean, my 

Tami: some murder on 

Michelle: top, but yeah, I mean, my family was, Oh, he’s very social.

I would say that both of my parents were extroverted. I’m extroverted. My brother’s probably not, but maybe a little bit. So it, it was a constant, like, I mean, I think there was a piece of, you know, a lot of social dates, like a lot. My parents. I would be with a bait. Me and my brother would be with a babysitter every single Saturday night of my childhood while my parents went out, either by themselves or with friends, usually with friends.

So that’s probably part of their self care that they had a Saturday night date every single week. And yeah, those sort of relationships are probably rooted in their self care, but like my dad would play tennis. My dad played softball. He had those activities. My mother just was with us. Or like she was the president of the PTA when I was in elementary school.

Like, this doesn’t seem like self-care to me. But it was more, you know, getting together with her friends and stuff like that, that I think kind of counted as self-care totally. And 

Tami: I’m. It’s like sitting here, like, wow. A date night every week. That’s every week. And that’s really incredible modeling.

So you have a young daughter or how do you think you’re doing and modeling self-care to your 

Michelle: daughter? It’s hard. It’s definitely something I’m really aware of and a big motivating piece for me. Like I don’t I don’t want her to think that. You know, as a woman you should never stop. You should be, you know, if you’re not working, you should be, you know, cleaning up or you should be what are you volunteering here or doing this or doing that?

I think I’m also very conscientious of how much we signed her up for at once. And have said to friends or my mom, you know, and, Oh, you know, it doesn’t, she live tennis. You’re gonna sign up for tennis. No, we’re good. We have two classes. That’s enough. Giving her more of that freedom. Of, you know, what she wants to do in her downtime.

And she’s also, I mean, you know, we don’t know this for sure. She can’t verbalize this yet, but she is definitely an extrovert. And we are very lucky to live on a street with about a half dozen other families with kids under the age of 10. So we have like a built-in pod social thing right here, just on our street.

And. I feel like the self care piece. You know, I do leave weekend days that are just open that it’s just like, we get to do what we want or we just get to relax. Like, she’s always doing so. I wish there was more like downtime in our family, but she will not, she’s a reader, but only at night.

When we go to bed, like she won’t sit quietly with a book for an hour. She’s just not that kid. But saying to her, like, I just need some sometimes to sit with the paper, I just need to rest, like you could play entertain yourself and that doesn’t go over a hundred percent of the time, but it’ll go over 40% of the time and I’ll take it though, is that 40% of the time?

So, you know, as, as much as we’re able to kind of. Put that message out there. I hope she’s getting some of it. 

Tami: I have also what we call our daughter, the mayor of Midtown, because she really knows everyone in Midtown Sacramento and everyone who’s ever visited. I mean, everyone feels welcome when they come to Midtown because my kids out there like.

Making sure everyone feels welcome, but one of the things that we here’s a trick, I want you to try this with yours and that is, we have her do something with her hands, whether it be play with clay or color or Lego and an audio book on, ah, 

Michelle: Oh, 

Tami: she’s still getting that like. That’s access really good kid lit that she does not have the patience to sit down and read herself.

Michelle: That’s super smart. Yeah. We’ve tried podcasts and they’ve like, and like, she hasn’t really caught on, but that’s super interesting to think of there’s play. Like my daughter loves Legos and she loves drawing and stuff like that. So that, that is. That’d be great. Thank you. Thank you. 

Tami: You’re welcome. I mean, and like every time we go on a car trip, we’re like, what long kid’s book should we listen to?

Yeah. And one thing, I mean, it’s nice too, because, and I say this as a teacher, it actually helps their reading and their love of reading and their fluency and their comprehension and their listening, because they’re able to take in those stories in a relaxed state. Yeah. 

Michelle: Yeah. 

Tami: And it gives them access to all this rich language.

And so some people are like, Oh, they’re just listening. It’s like, no, it’s such a great literacy building tool that everyone can feel really good about putting on an audio book while your kid is doing something. And then pro tip, while they’re doing that, you put your own headphones on and set your own book.

Right. Like we can build in like we’re both we’re together, but yes, 

Michelle: totally. Totally. Oh, that’s great. Thank you. You’re 

Tami: welcome. Okay. So I feel like we already covered how you practice self-care as a grownup, but is there anything else that you want to add? 

Michelle: I mean, I, you know, I feel like the other things are being intentional about you know, working through, say this to my clients all the time.

Like. I’m aware of when I need a break and I am deciding to ignore that feeling. And so I’m being very intentional of like stopping now in the middle of the day, especially since I can’t go to the coffee shop. I take a walk for like 20 minutes every day because I need to get out, I need to get away from the computer.

So that has contributed to my self care and to kind of recharging my own batteries. Instead of just powering through and finishing that email or whatever other ridiculous nonsense, I’m convincing myself as more important. And I think, you know, work hours are also key as well. So like I started around 10.

I finished around five 30. I’m doing my best to not work weekends. I rarely work nights. And I think that all ties into self care too, so I can really recharge and not burn myself out and prioritize the things that I want to prioritize. Right. So like yesterday I had calls like, All day for most of the day.

And I was running the tape in my head of like, you should work late, you didn’t get to do as much as you want it. And my daughter had asked the night before, could we watch the witches the new version that just came out with Anne Hathaway. And I said to her the day before, like, Oh, we could do it tomorrow because she didn’t have school.

She doesn’t have school today. So I was like, we could do it tomorrow. We could even start it a little late. Well, you know, we’ll do it tomorrow at like five o’clock. And so. She didn’t remember that commitment. Usually she does and she can say, is it time to watch the witches? But I remembered it and I was really looking forward to it.

And I was like, Hey, I could work for another hour. And I could also stop right now and go walk to the witches. And I did. And it was definitely the right decision. So, it’s making very intentional choices like that, that I normally would say no, I don’t have time. Oh, I know I told you that, but I don’t have time or it can’t happen.

Or mama has to work or whatever that is just not happening as often anymore. 

Tami: I have to say one of the things that is both. It’s revolutionary. And it’s also like the simplest thing ever, which is now that so many of us are spending so much time, more time with our families. Like our relationship to time has changed over the time that we’ve been in the pandemic because it’s like, we’re not sure if up is down and totally right.

And like what’s a weekend. And so I’ve been really intentional. I always, excuse me. I just about to give some hyperbolic language there always had really good work boundaries. Yeah. Because I, I felt that scarcity of like, but I only have a little bit of time, but when I found is when I have hard start and hard stop times, I actually get more done.

Michelle: Yes. It’s Parkinson’s law. It’s a law. It’s a scientific law. Thank you. That the amount of time it takes the amount of time it takes for something to get done expands or contracts based on how much time you have for that thing. Right. Wait, 

Tami: people are constantly like, I can’t believe how much content you put out and that you have committed to always working full-time or part-time like, yeah, I know.

Yeah. I don’t spend a lot of time farting around thinking aunts or guests or anything else? Yes. Quick and dirty. And it’s. Yeah. An exercise in imperfection, every single 

Michelle: hard for us overachievers. It’s 

Tami: hard that people, and it’s so funny. People Marvel at the amount of content and the quality of content.

I’m like, you guys, I’m putting out C plus work. Yes every day, he’s like, you’re blowing sunshine up my skirt and I’m not sure who is crazy or you or me rolling with it. I love ever 

Michelle: get anything done. I love it, right? Yes, totally. 

Tami: So, Oh, I’m so glad that I never cut onto the British a baking show. Oh, you know, I 

Michelle: tried, Oh my 

Tami: God.

But recently. During the election cycle, it has been bomb on Madame soul. You know, I 

Michelle: have, I have a friend that’s about the soul into it. Yes. I’ll just say 

Tami: yes, the collection’s on Netflix and I’m watching with my daughter. And so there’s a lot of it’s. It’s kind of like watching Mr. Rogers in a way in that only one thing is happening at a time.

That’s not a drama and then it can be soothing for both of us. And it’s Oh, it’s so nice. And so a lot of times after she gets done with school, I could look at her undone work list and be like, You have to finish this, 

Michelle: you have to fight, right? And sometimes I’m like, 

Tami: you need to finish this, but most of the time, I’m like, you’ve been on zoom calls all day long, 

Michelle: and 

Tami: now we are done and we are going to play a board game while we have nice British people making weird.

That’s exactly right, right. Cause it’s the afternoon of some curious. We’re not sure what day it is. 

Michelle: It doesn’t really matter. Absolutely. 

Tami: Okay. So what areas of your self care are going well? And what do you think could use some more attention? 

Michelle: The, I mean, everything I mentioned with like the morning routine and taking a break and stuff during the day that has been going really well and what needs more attention is being kind to myself in my own head.

It’s really where I’m focusing. Cause I think that’s a really big piece of self care and you know, the expectations I have for myself are. It was so high all the time. And you know, that’s the, I call it vampire voices because they’re there to stuff, the good stuff out of you. You know, they like to just tell me how many ways I’m not meeting those expectations.

So I need to practice that self-compassion and that kindness. 

Tami: I have to say, I, when I learned about self-compassion, I was like, Oh my God, there’s another way to live. Oh my God was what I had the idea. Absolutely. I remember literally remember what I was wearing when I was introduced to this concept and was like, my life there’s a before self-compassion and then there’s some after self-compassion PS, I have to practice it 24 hours a day.

I think I’m practicing in my sleep and I have. A gaggle of critics in my head and the head critic I have named blanche because my friend Rosie Molinari wrote a book called beautiful. You it’s like 365 exercises that get you towards a radical self self acceptance. It’s the other one. Yeah, 

Michelle: yeah.

The other self thing. 

Tami: Yeah. And naming my. My most ardent critic has helped me be nicer to her. Right. We have this natural inclination of like, someone’s being mean I’m going to fight back. It’s like, well, you could, except that the call is coming from inside. That yes, absolutely mean to inside the house is not going to get you where you think you’re going.

And so this idea of like, okay, let us. Tend to be friend blanche is her name. What if me and blanche got to hold hands? And then I hugged her real tight and said, I know it’s scary time. No, you think we’re going to spontaneously combust. If we do something scary, like cross the street. But what if I hold your hand and carry you?

I’ll cover your eyes. And when we get to the other side I’ll say, see, here we are. Right also. Well, yes, 

Michelle: yes. Yes. I love Elizabeth Gilbert’s analogy where she’s like. You know, that fear, that inner critic, like it’s coming along for the ride, whether we want it or not, but I’m not inviting it to, to ride shotgun.

Like it has to sit in the backseat. Like I am in the front with my tunes, I’m controlling it. Like it has to go in the back. And I think that is exactly right, exactly. Right. And I tell my clients too, that so often. You know, I really just all the time, like the inner critics, vampire voices, they exist to keep you safe and keep you in what, you know?

Because anything that is unknown is unsafe to them. And so they really are trying to protect you, but you know, you, you ain’t got time for that. And they do it in like the most unkind way. Oh, you know, we got to get around 

Tami: that. Yeah. They’re like, I’m going to shock you into. Not doing that thing. Like I didn’t, I wanted to start a podcast in 2012.

Right. And it took me till 

Michelle: 2019. Wow. Yes. And that story is like one of many, and there are people right now that said I wanted to start a podcast in 2012 and I still haven’t done it. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. And that’s why it’s like, okay. Small pieces every day, everything’s imperfect. And the only thing that got me to really be able to go is I have a wonderful assistant and she’s like, Hey, I’ve heard really nice things about your boss.

You can make those rules just like, and just a reminder, you can start over at any time. I was like, you’re right. Just call a do-over. You’re 

Michelle: good. She’s no longer your assistant. She’s your Yoda. That’s amazing. Yeah, 

Tami: exactly. She’s actually, he’s like such the right hand. Yes, my entire business and life she’s I feel like she’s like the conscious of my business where I’m like, she’s like, I’m just telling you what you tell everyone else.

I’m like, yes. 

Michelle: Thank you. Yes, exactly. Okay. 

Tami: So what else should people know about you and where can people find you online? 

Michelle: Yeah. What else should they know about me? I don’t know. I don’t know. What else is there to me other than my work notable? They kidding. I feel like I, I went through everything that, you know, I live outside of New York city.

I have a six-year-old I’ve had two bouts of breast cancer. I’m a business launch coach for creative women. Find me@ninetydaybusinesslunch.com. You could follow me follow the Instagram and Pinterest buttons. Otherwise just go to 90 day biz launch on Instagram. That is the only and I’ve played my ukulele and I sing and I’m.

Weird. I don’t know, come hang out with me. That’s 

Tami: it. Okay. I’m Michelle. I want to say this in the nicest way possible. Yeah, you are a weirdo in the same way that I’m a weirdo in this. Like, this is who we are. This is. Yeah. That’s all how we really are. So well, that’s kind of weird today, right? Exactly.

It’s like awesome. Let’s all hold hands with all the other weirdos. There’s no need to fit in. Yes. You busy belonging because we hadn’t talked about Bernay Brown yet. So there she 

Michelle: is. Oh my God. Always right. Two white ladies. Totally gotta bring her up. Two white ladies in a self-development world. We need to.

EP 74: Winter Self Care During a Pandemic

EP 74: Winter Self Care During a Pandemic


Today’s episode is brought to you by me, Tami Hackbarth life and work coach. I know lots of you are making new self-care habit changes in 2021. And I have a gift just for you that will help support you.

In adding more self care. So if you head on over to my website@wwwdottamihackbarth.com, you can download your very own copy of the self-care assessment tool and 2020 self care planner. And now onto today’s show. Oh my God. You guys it’s episode 74. We’re going to talk about winter self-care and this time we’re going to talk about it from the perspective of we’re living in a global pandemic.

Okay. I don’t know where about where you live, but here in Northern California. It’s super starting to feel like spring the days are longer. The light is better. It’s already getting into the low seventies. Despite that first spring thing, we actually still have four more weeks of winter. This is the time of the year when I start questioning my actual sanity because, Oh my God, what’s the deal with the endless feeling like summer around here.

Especially with us being 11 months into the pandemic. So today I want to talk about winter self-care specifically things we can do at home, mostly for very little money to help take care of all aspects of our lives, our mental health or physical health, our emotional health, our relationships. So just to start here each season.

Like seasoned, meaning where you are in your parenting journey, where you are and your career, how old you are, what generation you’re in, who you’re caring for. Plus the actual seasons of all winter, spring and summer all have their own needs. And that’s why we feel differently in different parts of the year.

And winter definitely has its own self-care needs, especially around the ideas of rest and quiet to have everyone’s favorite. Or excuse me, least favorite topics. So one of the ways that I’m really trying to help you and remind myself is to check in with myself at the beginning and end of every season so I can evaluate myself care needs, and then make a plan using the self care planner to make sure that’s, I’m getting what I need in the season when I need it.

So make sure you head on over to the my website and grab that planner. All right. Before we get started on the planner, some questions I like to ask myself. One question is, how has my energy do I need to build more time into sleep nap, rest and nest in the winter. Then the answer is always, yes, there are certain surrender to caring for your knees seasonally.

So. If you take a look outside the trees shed their leaves a couple of months ago, and now they’re in dormancy. This is because nature’s built in rest as a way of healing and getting ready for the next busy season spring here in February, just a reminder, we have a whole nother month of dormancy. So even though the weather might be warm or their sun might be out, it’s still.

You know, go in the, sun’s going down at dinner time. So if you’re like, I feel like I have two days in every day where it’s like, Oh, the sun is up earlier. I’m totally awake. And then as soon as the sun goes down, I’m ready for bed. There’s a reason for that. It’s because we are sleepier in the winter. Cause we’re still biological creatures, the light circadian rhythms.

They totally matter. So one of my workarounds on this to gather more energy in the darkest months, I started using a Dawn simulating alarm clock about 20 years ago and it completely changed my relationship to winter mornings. Now I wake up with sunlight no matter what time of year. And you can check out resources for this over in the show notes.

Again, I’m a website. And you just go to Tami hackbarth.com/podcast. And you’ll see this episode it’s going to be episode 74, I believe. And you can find out what I’m talking about. If you have no idea what a Dawn simulating alarm clock is, basically, it is like having the sun rise and like little birds, like Cinderella coming around your head to wake you up.

And it’s, I’m telling you it’s so much better. Then having an alarm go off in the middle of a dream and the dark where it feels like you’re about to be murdered every morning. I don’t know. I hate starting my day with anxiety. So now, like I said, for 20 years, I’m a waking up to this Dawn simulating light and you.

A friend of mine just downloaded an app to use on our phone to try it out. And she was like, Whoa, that’s life-changing right. The other thing that I do to sort of help myself with my lack of light in this time of year is I use a light box. I thought when I leave to live in the Pacific Northwest and tons of people and I was really depressed and does people are like, Oh my God, you should get a light box.

And I thought, whatever hippie. And then of course. Me being me was like maybe I should try it before I discount it completely after of course discounting it completely. And my first thought, so I got a light box and every morning in the winter and I usually start in January. Cause I don’t know why.

Forget the winter’s coming every fall. And anyway, it takes me a while to get the light box out. But I did start it in January. And pro tip use it personally in the morning because it sort of honestly feels like I’m having a cup of coffee without the jitters. And it helps me feel not so tired later in the day.

So again, I will links. I’ll have links to this in the show notes. All right. So the next question I ask myself is what I’m doing. What am I doing to fuel and nourish my body? Am I eating warm, cooked foods? Am I eating what’s in season? What are ways that I could get more seasonal fruits and vegetables in my body?

So. Going to the farmer’s market, natural foods. Co-op lots of seasonal produce. I know tons of people who are spent at the beginning of the pandemic starting gardens. I was not one of them. I also use this idea of cooking seasonally to like go online and look up seasonal recipes. And of course I have a bunch of tried and true recipes that will be listed in the show notes.

All right. Next question for this winter, self-care specifically as, what am I doing to quiet my mind meditation, and it’s a great time too. Take it up because the a we’re all still supposed to be nesting and resting here in the winter months. But especially during the pandemic, I’ve been using the Headspace app for years and years.

And I highly recommend it. I absolutely love Headspace and I was recently gifted a. A membership to the calm app, which I’ve been using, and it’s been a nice change of pace, but the idea is setting aside three to 10 minutes, three to 20 minutes, three to three 30 minutes, whatever you think you can do once, twice, three times a day just to build in more space, more white space in your brain.

All right. Next question is, what am I doing to move my body? Despite being a season of rest, we still have to move our bodies in the winter months. You know, it’s that whole use it or lose it. Shit gets rusty if you aren’t using it. So, especially as I’ve gotten older, I cannot phone and exercise. It’s really good for mental health as well as physical health for me.

So I found walking early in the morning or outside at lunch and dressing for the weather, keeps my mood steady and my sleep sound. And then finally I have to check in and say, what am I doing for my skin and my hair? I love to slather on avocado oil at night. Put my socks on and my feet are like princess soft, probably the biggest game changer.

For me, in terms of changing, how I look at each season is focusing on what are things that I, that are unique to that season. So what are things that I can only do in the winter? So here’s 21 activities I have on my winter self-care list. All right. Number one, bundle up and walk outside. Any time of day, I live somewhere that gets really hot and stays really hot for like six months a year.

And so most of the year I have to go out early in the morning or I am dying. Of like heat exhaustion. So I love walking in the winter because it gives me way more flexibility in my schedule to move outside. I can actually take a walk outside anytime of day during the winter. And it is so delightful.

And the other thing I am digging this time. During the pandemic is double masking, making sure I’m keeping my neighbors safe and myself by going out, but it also provides a little bit extra layer on those super cold days. Not that it gets that cold in California, but you know, that’s what I’m talking about.

Also. I sometimes use this time to bonus, catch up with a girlfriend and actually just have like old-school phone date. So it’s really great connection tool. I put on my hipbones. I put on my mass, I go on a walk. So when win-win also, I’m getting more light, which is always really helpful for energy.

Number two. Using blankets and towels right out of a dryer. I used to do this in high school and somehow I forgot this absolute simple pleasure. Number three, we play board games every day, most mornings, and definitely at lunch because I’m supervising distance learning. And it’s really fun. We play cards, we play sorry a lot.

And it’s. Simple easy fun. I also have been playing I still play words with friends, but I only play with my husband. But making sure we have some simple games in our life. All right. Number four, making sure you use the super soft, cozy blankets and socks that you have. After my best friend died.

Some other friends gifted me, the actual coziest, socks and blankets ever. And I’ve been wrapped up in them all winter. And it has been such a comfort and soothing. It feels like a hug in a time where we can’t get hugs from others. And so if you haven’t done any pandemic purchasing of cozy items, I highly recommend it.

Number five. I wear slippers all the time. I hate wearing shoes. I hate wearing shoes in the house. And so I have, you know, the shearling, the suede shearling lined slippers. And, Oh my God, I took my shoes off the other day and I thought, what. Is that smell. I know embarrassing. Right. But I found it easy trick because I’ve been like, what can I do to take care of my stuff?

And we’ll talk more about that later, but I just threw some baking soda in them, left them overnight vacuumed amount in the morning. And I feel like hello, brand new slippers. And when I was feeling extra fancy, I put in some, a couple of drops of essential oils, and now my shoes are good smelling and feeling.

Fresh. All right. Number six, for my thing that I’m doing to take care of myself, this winter specifically is I got a new moisturizing, sunscreen. What can I say? I’m finally old enough to have some dryness in my face. And I got myself a really moisturizing new sunscreen that I’m wearing all the time, because we still need to take care of ourselves and our skin, even during a pandemic in the winter.

All right. Number seven specifically, I’m taking care of my stuff. Let’s face it we’re home anyway. So I’m figuring out how to use this stuff in my house. Use this stuff in my house in new ways, clean and maintain other things. And I find it to be weirdly satisfying. So I’ve been looking for ideas on Pinterest and even watching restoration videos on YouTube.

The other day, I watched somebody restore. A vintage lawn mower, like take this rusty bucket of bolts apart and then redo it all. It was so soothing. It was like a meditation. Okay. Number eight way to take care of yourself in the winter. Upgrade your pajamas. Hello friends. So I just. Made this massive discovery.

The other day, when I went on the search for some hundred percent cotton poplin, pajama bottoms, cause of the only ones that I wear 365 days. And what I found is that women’s pajamas are great, which is what I’ve always worn. But I don’t know if you know this and now this is a secret men’s pajamas are just as great, but they have pockets.

So I ordered my splashed out and splurged on some new pajamas in the perfect colors. And now they have pajamas and I have never been happier except that day that I upgraded my sheets and got new pillows. Last winter, I am a hundred percent committed to making my bed the best place to support my rest in my sleep.

And if you haven’t done it yet, please do all right. Number nine. Ways to take care of yourself during this winter pandemic style is to invest in soft clothes. As my friend, Rebecca, from studio plum called it the other day, her Zelle Zuma form. You got to look real good on the top, and then you got to wear your soft pants on the bottom.

So. At the beginning of the pandemic, I got myself some joggers, AKA sweat pants of 2021, so cozy. And while I was upgrading my pajamas, I bought a couple of cute tops to go with my joggers so that I look like, you know, my mullet uniform of super cute on top and basic, I work from home in my slippers, but not yoga pants.

They’re joggers. Thank you very much. All right. Number 10 idea. Four. Winter self care is to try some new recipes. I was having some food fatigue here in the pandemic a couple of weeks ago. And I decided I would get some cookbooks from the library. Cause I hate buying cookbooks, sorry, cookbook authors, because I never know if I like something until I try it.

So usually honestly, what I do is. I get cookbooks from the library. And then if I try a bunch of recipes and I love it, then I buy the book. Hi. I like to try before I buy apparently, but I did get some cookbooks from the library and I’ve been trying some new dishes and it’s been a really nice change of pace.

And since I’m working at home and I’m here, All the time. I’ve got more time to cook, especially on weekends and an evening. And even let’s be honest, I’m doing the like cook early in the morning and letting stuff simmer on the stove all day, because I’m not going anywhere. Another way to add some cozy, you’ve probably heard this a million times and that is to light candles.

And my friend cache over the cachet life has a new home collection of candles. And you can check those out on her website and I will link to that in the show notes. All right. Number 12 way to. Dig into self care. This winter is practice restorative yoga with all the props and you’re like, I don’t even know what that is.

Well friends, you can Google Michelle Marla Han restorative yoga. Anna from curvy. Yoga has some great resources for restorative yoga as does our friend Adrian from yoga with Adrian. And restorative yoga is basically it’s the laying down part at the end with pillows blankets, bolsters eye pillows.

It’s like the cushiest gutsiest nap without falling asleep, except maybe sometimes you fall asleep and that’s totally okay. All right. Number 13 thing. I’m doing much more this winter and that is drinking tons of tea without milk. And my current favorite is lavender honey. From Yogi tea, number 14 way to take care of yourself.

This winter I’ve been taking art classes because this summer I got a Skillshare membership and I’ve been watching a class a week and trying to build creative work with my hands, into our weekly schedule. I’ve got lots of water color going on these days and I just went and got some kids supplies because let’s be real.

I’m not fancy. And I want my kid to do this with me. And they’re less expensive. So I got some kid watercolor, paper, Sharpies, scissors, glue sticks, and it’s been surprisingly relaxing. And I can tell you why, because that is number 15 and that is doing a digital detox. I’ve been spending way less time on social media and hello.

I have more time to read. I have more time to cook. I have more time to fill in the blank, do everything. And my brain feels like I’m on vacation a lot more. For some reason constant scrolling makes me kind of feel like garbage. So I have been trying to figure out ways. How can I rather than say I’m just going to stay off social media.

It’s like, what are you going to fill your time with instead? What kinds of things could you do? And so those are the things I’ve been doing. I’ve been reading more. I have been doing art more. I’ve been sewing more. I’ve been doing things with my hands to keep me away from my phone. And I’m feeling the benefits of the digital detox.

Maybe you went to all right. Number 16 ways. Self care ideas for winter is reading in the tub, reading in bed, reading on the couch. Oh my God. So many books. I don’t know about you but I am a voracious reader and I’ll be doing some book roundups. Later in later episodes, but people always ask me how do you read so much, which I’ll do an episode on that.

And how do you get your books that isn’t going to break your bank? And I will also do an episode on that. It’s really short and sweet. Honestly, Sacramento public library does meet up. They have curbside pickup. They have audio books and Kindle books on the Libby app. And if you haven’t started with that, please do download it today and you can get free books delivered to your phone.

And then you can do curbside pickup at your local branch. If you have it, check it out. The library needs our help in order to keep their doors. Proverbially open. So support your library while they support your reading habit. And if you want to know everything I’m reading, you can find me on good reads.

I would love to connect with you there. All right. So number 17 has been a new thing for me, and that’s listening to soft, instrumental music while I’m working and supervising distance learning. It’s really hard to work when I hear my kid’s teacher talking in the other room and by other room, eight feet away from me, I’m in living room, she’s in the dining room.

So I have been wearing headphones and listening to instrumental music. And it’s. It’s been really relaxing and it’s sort of a form of white noise and I haven’t used it before. Sometimes I also dip into cafe sounds cause hi, I miss working with other people, but ignoring them and nature sounds cause you know, they’re nice.

They’re relaxing. And so you can find any, you can find cafe sounds. I have cough activity on my phone and you can just download a white noise app and tune out your family while you’re working. All right. Number 18, a winter self-care is decluttering daily. Oh, my God. We’re home all the time and we’re seeing all our stuff.

So we’re spending a little bit of time every day. We put it on the family schedule and we’ve been chipping away at it. Number 19, the 15 minute tidy. I learned this from Carly at tidy revival, who I interviewed in episode 16, I believe. And we’re going to be doing some upcoming episodes on. Tidying organizing and letting what we do be good enough.

So that it actually feels like self care to take care of your stuff in your house. So look forward to that, but if you haven’t started the 15 minute tidy, just set a timer, get everyone in the family, just put stuff back where it goes for 15 minutes and you’ll be surprised how much tidy are your houses at the end of the week?

All right. Number 20. Is, we are keeping our Christmas lights up in our house and tell my birthday happens to conveniently fall on the first day of spring. So having that extra bit of light is really lovely, especially at sundown and cause every night we do. A little ritual, which is we sit down, we let up the Christmas lights that are hung all around our living room and dining room.

And then we light a candle for my best friend who died. And we read an excerpt, the daily reading from Cindy Spiegel’s a year of positive thinking and we talk about my best friend. And I love this time because it’s like I’m spending every moment of the day grieving as one does, but really what I’m doing is I know at the end of every day, I’m going to have this time to connect with my family.

And I’m going to have this time to connect with my friend. And I’m going to have this time to talk about her cry if I need to cry and really let my family hear the stories of us growing up and being friends and yeah. It’s a really nice way to do. It’s a nice thing to do after dinner is to light a candle and have a little.

Family connection time. And then finally, number 21, speaking of grief, I’ve been working my way through what your grief. That’s a great website, by the way, they have a free class on grief during COVID times. So I will link to that in the show notes. So I’m curious to find out what you’re doing. For winter self care.

I’d love to connect with you on social media. I’m on Instagram at Tami. Hackbarth make sure to head over to my website at www.tamihackbarth.com/podcast for all the show notes until next time, remember that you mattered too.

EP 73: Social Justice and White Privilege with Corrie Chadwick

EP 73: Social Justice and White Privilege with Corrie Chadwick


Tami: Hi, Corey. I’m so happy you’re here.

Corri: Oh, I’m so happy to be here. 

Tami: Okay. So I asked this question and sometimes people feel like it’s an existential question, but you take it as you will. Who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Corri: Who am I and what do I do in the world? All right my name is Corri and by trade and education.

I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I work in education. So my title in education is a mental health therapist. And in that capacity, I work primarily with the students whose mental health. Social emotional wellbeing behavior has somehow gotten in the way of their learning. And I work to support them.

To get back into general education as much as possible. What that often looks like is working with a very disproportionate number of black and Brown boys, who have been labeled as behavior problems, emotionally disturbed based on. They’re special ed designation. and so a lot of work is with the students, but also with staff in figuring out how to create more compatibility and understand the student that all behavior, excuse me, is communication.

And, and also working with families with parents. And, so that is by day. By trade. I also have been teaching yoga in the Sacramento community for the past, probably 12 years. I have recently taken a break. I’ve always maintained at least one class per week. and I have consistently taught the same class at the same time, different studios for about 12 years now, but I’ve recently taken a break.

I am not at this point in time, based on the pandemic, comfortable being in studio, they’ve opened up with, social distancing guidelines. I’m just not there. So I’m currently taking a break, but my hope was to create more space, to do the other part of who I am and what I do. .

So I’m also a mom to two kids and a wife to my husband. And, yeah,  

Tami: I’m also a yoga teacher in the Sacramento area and I don’t offer public classes anymore. and it was pre pandemic is because I teach restorative yoga.

And if, tell me that isn’t a hard sell in regular times. but I do come at life from that vantage point as well. But how I, how 

Corri: our worlds collided 

Tami: is when you gave a talk at creative mornings. That made me think, Oh my God, I need to have this woman in my life. Can you tell my listeners about the talk that you gave at creative mornings?

Because it was so impactful for everyone in the room. I know this because I talked to many people in the room and I was like, okay, that was what we needed to hear. So what was the title of your talk and what was the information that you were able to. Give to the audience 

Corri: that 

Tami: really helped people understand where we are.

Corri: Oh, I will try to remember. It has been, I think, over a year now. The so creative mornings, typically each month globally, they offer a, specific topic that the speaker speaks to. And so the topic of the month that I presented was on symmetry. And so I focused on. Racial symmetry or the lack of racial symmetry that we experienced a lack of racial equity that we experienced in our country.

And the focus was specifically on ways in which white people, the dominant culture in the United States can that we can be more thoughtful about using our privilege in a responsible way. which includes just even recognizing that we have it includes listening and learning really trusting the expressed and voiced, lived experience of people of color.

it, I talked a bit about tone policing and our tendency is white people to. Have this idea that if only, this black person would present this information a little less intense or aggressive or measured, we’d be more inclined to listen. talked a little bit about, the ways in which.

In hindsight, we look at someone like Martin Luther King Jr. And we hold him in a very high regard. We eat him as the voice of reason in black leadership in history. We have, we hold him in deep reverence and ironically at the time, during the 1960s, Gallup. Hold many whites, presumably liberal or self identifying liberal Americans at the time.

Many of which said that they agreed with Martin Luther King Jr’s message, but they also disagreed with the ways in which he went about delivering that message. And so I just invited, folks. To think about ways in which we have that sort of experience. Now it’s an L there’s an element of tone policing in that.

So keep in mind, this was about maybe a year and a half ago. And just the ways in which we might say okay, black lives matter. I agree with that message, but I don’t agree with the way in which the black lives matter movement is going about. Expressing that voice. And so the way that we can be okay with the idea of a message, but still have strong opinions, just basically the essence of that is that white people have been criticizing, judging critiquing ways in which black people do their work.

too. Create more justice inequity, and the ways that white people judge that. And then also, the last thing that comes to mind that is the importance of action. It’s not enough to have compassion that we have to put that compassion in action to create change. So 

Tami: yes. And boy it’s like you had a crystal 

Corri: ball.

Tami: You’re like, your guys are going to need this later. So I’m going to link to that. That talk should be on the creative mornings website. 

Corri: So I will link 

Tami: to that in the show notes. So my, so this again, I’m like, but how did you get there? How did you, was it because of the work that you do as a therapist with predominantly black and Brown boys in the mental health, special education department?

Corri: Like, how did you. Get 

Tami: to where you are now as someone who takes action and is an advocate for others taking action in the anti-racism space. 

Corri: So I think I was raised by my mom is a justice and truth seeker. That’s just in her nature. She works in homeless, education. And so I think that it just was always modeled for me.

And, I think it’s in my nature to be a fairness monitor. Like I am all Eno is the only girl I grew up in a family of four brothers. I’m the only girl. And I think it was always like, I was just making sure that everything was fair. Everything was equitable. Everything was, So I think that is also part of it.

for me, I absolutely believe that my fueled that desire, because I have watched whether it was working, I worked for many years for about 10 years in outpatient, mental health, particularly with, funded by Sacramento County. So predominantly Medi-Cal. clients and families. And I think I saw just how inequitable, these clients and families and students were being treated.

And so I would go to what I found was that I would go to work and I would put on. This hat that was really this, myself as a mental health therapist. So my clinician hat, but also my racial social justice hat. And I would fight that fight there. But then I felt I hung up that hat, there.

And then I came home and I would be in my neighborhood and I put that on in my neighborhood and then I’d take it off. And so I felt The work for me was a bit disjointed. And to a degree, I was doing it a bit as a yoga teacher, but I felt like I was not consistently wearing that hat. And, this interesting thing happened in the yoga community a handful of years ago.

I’m sure you remember it. there was a yoga studio that was called out before cultural appropriation of a hip hop yoga class. And, it was, there was a white woman who would be teaching this yoga class. That was a hip hop yoga. There was a lot of appropriative language that was used. And so that person was called in initially, Hey, here’s some suggestions.

Kind of went away and then several months later it came back without any changes to that. And so it really blew up and it brought these worlds together. I had been interested in black lives matter a couple of years prior to that I’d done a benefit class in yoga, but it went away. Those worlds were separate again.

And so it just brought all of these things. I gather my interest in social racial justice, my work as a yoga teacher, and really having compassion for the woman who did that and understanding, what it means to be white and trying to do and be better, but also the, that. Sometimes we need to be held accountable.

And so watching those two things come together was really this pivotal shift for me, where I just thought I cannot keep taking these hats off and on. my work right now is to just wear this hat because this is inherently who I am or who I want to be. And it was not long after that I made the choice to leave the yoga studio where I taught for 10 years.

Because they were not upholding, the values, the anti-racist values that I was committed to. And that was a hard decision, but it really was the shifting point for me that like, I don’t want to do this work. I want to be in, I want to live this work, if that makes sense. So 

Tami: 100% makes sense to me. One of the things that.

has resonated with me my entire life is you’re going to lose friends and acquaintances and relationships when you stand up for what’s. Because a lot of times we’re met with people who are like, you know what, I’m not quite there yet. And I’m like, okay, but I’m willing to work with you up to a point of I don’t want to take the hat off either.

Corri: That’s right. I 

Tami: don’t want to take the hat. And I’m guilty of, I had, I started my career in politics and then I was an advocate teacher and people are like, what’s an advocate teacher. I’m like I spent my kid, I spent my days teaching kids. How to read literally. Cause I taught third grade. It was like, this is we got to get on the reading bus, everyone before everybody gets in trouble.

You me, everyone else. I taught them how to write. I taught them how to be in community with each other. I taught them how to advocate for themselves. Like we had a problem with a yard supervisor. One time he was 

Corri: ineffective as the nicest way 

Tami: I could put it in my class came to me and they’re like, can you, this do recess duty?

And I was like, no. I as much as an invitation to stand in the blazing sun and blacktop in the afternoon, sounds thanks for the invitation. No, thanks. I was like, what is the problem? And they explain the problem. And I said, this is a great time for us to use our voices collectively to bring the issues to the principal in a way that she will hear it.

And we need to have a conversation and I will be there to open those doors and I will be there to support you using your. Words and to work together. Like we can make change together

and people are like, Oh yeah. I was like, yeah. Yeah. that’s what I, that’s what I’m trying to get kids to understand that. Even when you’re little, you have a voice, 

Corri: even when you’re little, you can create change. 

Tami: Even when you’re little, you can stand with your partners and make even more change. That’s what being an advocate teacher meant to me.

and then working the other angle of 

Corri: this 

Tami: curriculum doesn’t address my students. I will teach that curriculum because I’m required, but I will also bring in material that is relevant to their lives so that they see themselves represented in their classroom. 

Corri: That’s the work. Yeah. But 

Tami: I felt as a teacher, that was the least I could do.

but I did have a couple of years where I was like, I’m going to put the bucket back on my head. I’m going to go to yoga. 

Corri: I’m going to 

Tami: learn some stuff. That stuff that was really 

Corri: important to 

Tami: making me actually a better advocate in the long run. 

Corri: But I 

Tami: did put my bucket back on for awhile.

Corri: Activism narcolepsy.

Tami: I’m like, I’m come back and it is not, it’s not that it’s been forgotten. I just needed a bit of a break and here we go. Okay. So do you work directly with 

Corri: people 

Tami: on. 

Corri: tell us how you work with 

Tami: people. I know you’re taking a break from yoga. I know that you working in your school district, but do you work privately also with 

Corri: people.

I do not. So I’m private practice as a clinician has just never really been something I’ve been drawn to. I think, because by the time I’m done with my job, it’s nice to leave that here and to, be able to do things like teach yoga and over here. But something that I have been engaged in over the last few years is some.

Various types of yoga, excuse me, not yoga, social racial justice training. I have done, a training called let’s talk about race and the idea I’ve done it with, you white women who are my ally accomplice, activists, partners, accountability partners. And the idea is basically just activism one Oh one, really just front loading and introducing basic key terms and, just getting people prepared.

What I’m very clear about is that my role as a white person, Is not to lead the work, but to do the work. And so I am very, I try to be as conscientious as possible in the development of that material. all of it is created in partnership with. People of color, particularly women of color who are compensated for their work and their labor.

but that, my hope is in facilitating those types of trainings. let’s talk about race, to prepare people with a set of skills and etiquette. It’s almost provide some table manners or just some etiquette as they transition into engaging in a anti-racist work that is led by people of color, by the people who should be leading anti-racist work, which are folks of color.

So particularly black women, my mailman’s here. 

Tami: Awesome. I’m glad you have a mailman announcer. That’s really nice. 

Corri: So do you, 

Tami: so have you been leading those trainings? In the summer as well, or is that work? That’s been put on hold with the pandemic. 

Corri: So it has been put on hold. I have taught yoga at rod yoga center, which my dear friends Ramelle Antwan and Michelle Sweezey, they own.

And, I’m not teaching their studio is not currently open. They’re all virtual right now, but I’m hoping to be, Getting involved in some of that, through rod yoga center soon. And, the, where I came up, the point that I came to is I realized that I was doing these trainings with a few women, friends of mine, and there were three hour trainings or three hour sessions.

And it just was really short changing the conversation that we were having. And I felt like it was trying to cram so much information into one. I think it was two and a half hour block of time. And it just felt like it was not enough. And so I needed more time and I wanted to make sure that I was doing this work with fidelity.

and so I rolled back a little bit, but I’ve also been going through the Layla sods, me and white supremacy. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. I have the book. 

Corri: Yes. So a few years ago when she rolled it out, I followed her on Instagram for a while. I did it on my own and I was like, this is fantastic. And then a couple of years ago, I did it in group with about six women and it was just really remarkable to go through it in a group.

Just to, there was something about you King those things out loud that I had often, those racist beliefs that I, kept hidden from even my inner most self. So it was one thing to put them on paper and journal them on my own and then just sit in a group and to be able to speak those things into the ether and to be validated, and so Layla saw it has a very particular. Sideline for doing the work in group. And so I did that a couple of years ago, but now I’m currently, moving through with two groups, separate groups of women. one of them, my very closest friends from childhood and the other group, some other very dear friends.

And so it’s just, it’s been really remarkable and it’s something that I’d like to. Continually be engaged in, moving through with groups of people as time goes on. Cause it’s just such powerful work. 

Tami: And right now I know every one of my listeners is raising their hand like, Oh yeah, pick me. I need help with that.

Corri: Yeah. 

Tami: So we will all of your contact information in the show notes and ways that people can reach out. And again, if you have recommendations. And you don’t have to come up with them now, but if you wanted to put them in the show notes, I’ll contact you after we record that, that can point people in the right direction.

So one of the, one of the, aha moments I had in starting the work with me in white supremacy was I was like, wow, this isn’t like a one a work. This is more like one-on-one work. I feel like there needs to be a precursor before that. Yeah. So I recommend people listen to, so you want to talk about race 

Corri: as a way to 

Tami: get that conversation going even with yourself.

Corri: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah, 

Tami: because that is so deep and unpacking the invisible knapsack. I know that’s a really old resource, but it’s an eye-opener resource still very relevant. Yeah. 

Corri: And I would say I’ve been through, the me and white supremacy workbook whistle. I’m on my fourth time now. And there are just layers that like I w what I’m clear about is I will never go through that workbook and be like, Oh, I’ve got it figured out now, this is the time when I get my certificate of arrival, that you just drop into 

Tami: there’s no, there.

Corri: There, no, there 

Tami: exactly. There’s no final destination. It’s like when people ask me about self care, I’m like, it’s what you do between now and when you’re dead, so there’s no reason to get upset if you fall off for a little bit, because you’re going to come back because you’re still alive and new situations bring up 

Corri: new 

Tami: ways that you’re like, Oh, I totally dropped the ball on that.

I’m currently reading, how to be non-racist no anti-racist and that book has been revolutionary in the it’s like in every moment, in every thought in every action or inaction, you vacillate between 

Corri: being 

Tami: racist and being anti-racist being racism. And it’s a continuum that goes on and on forever and ever, and to not.

Die from, Oh my God. Everyone thinks I’m racist. It’s can we just all accept that we are and move on from that 

Corri: we are. I love, Ebro Mex Candy’s description. that, explanation for me from him was really profound in my anti-racist journey. When he talked about the fact that one of the worst possible things that could have happened for racism is making that term racist a pejorative.

And so we see it as Oh my God, it’s the equivalent of the worst possible insult and shameful thing that we could ever be called. And so we avoid it like the plague and the moment that we are, someone inferences, or causes that like, We immediately it’s as close to there’s a really great recent episode.

I don’t know if you’ve listened to it. Bernay Brown’s on shame and accountability and anti-racist work. And she says, like the actual visceral response to shame is actual pain. Is it actually feeling pain? 

 That  if I’m racist, that I’m a bad person is where we went wrong, because we can be nice and we can be kind and we can be lovely and we can be an activist and we can be caring and still do racist things.

And so we have to take that judgment out of it. And just think of it like Ebro Mexican. He says, it’s just this main badge we take on and we take off, we’re either engaging in anti-racist behavior or racist behavior without judgment, just creating awareness so that hopefully more of our day is spent with the sticker on and.


Tami: I love that too, because it was interesting cause I just actually read that chapter. Cause I’m doing this book in a book club and one of the interesting things was it was like, There was a conservative talking point. It wasn’t, it said didn’t come out of thin air. this was a direct 

Corri: PR moment 

Tami: of Oh, we know how we can make this happen.

We’ll make all those people who want to do good in the world, feel bad about themselves. So they stopped doing that work because they’re over here tending to their broken heart because they, but I’m a nice person. You can, it’s you can be a nice person and 

Corri: still. That’s right. And this is where that they’re not 

Tami: mutually sitting.

And this is where I feel like a self-compassion practice comes into play heavily, which is speak highly of yourself, common humanity. We’re all making these mistakes and we’re all offering each other grace and forgiveness, including ourselves. And we pay attention to when we do it so that we can maybe have more actions we’re 

Corri: proud of.


Tami: once 

Corri: we have to recoil from. I think, the most, because when we go into that shame moment, when we go there, it really does trigger that fight or flight response. And so I, I, this is a very dumbed down version or model of the brain, our limbic system, that emotional center of our brain that’s right.

it just goes into full on, Fight flight freeze, cold, fond, whatever your responses. And so we do things like double down and become defensive or we recoil or whatever it might be. And one of the most important things that we can do in that moment is to just name it like, Oh, like actually identify it in our physical bodies and say Oh, I feel gray and heavy in my chest.

When that shame comes and sometimes the shame is not when we’re called out or in, by a person of color, the shame might come from saying the wrong thing or quoting the wrong thing. And another white person calls us in, to keep us accountable. I can’t tell you how many white women think that I am just.

Sensitive and, judgy and harsh because I have called out problematic behavior. And, and I also love what Renee Brown says about, being called out in anti-racism work and feeling shame. Is not the same thing as being shame. So we, as the receiver of it may feel so shameful for what we did.

And we may feel like the person calling us in or out is shaming us, but that’s not necessarily the truth. Having to be accountable and being called out to be accountable for doing a racist thing may feel like shame, but it doesn’t mean that the person doing it is shaming. I get it. 

Tami: I feel like it’s a gift.

it’s like when you step in dog poop and you walk around and you’re like, why does that smell like dog poop? And somebody is it’s you? And you’re like, Oh, now I can wash my shoe off and stop offending everyone around me. Thank you for letting knows me because I had no idea. 

Corri: And yes, I was going to say the reality is it is a gift.

For me often in hindsight, in the moment it’s so prickly, I call it the steam. It’s so prickly and hot and my ears get flushed and my heart drops and I’m sick. And I’m that person who teaches Antifa or. Works through anti-racism work with other people and we’ll tell people all the time, grace, upon grace, we’re gonna mess this up.

We’ve never done this before. And my own internal dialogue is everyone except you for you. Can’t fuck this up. Real, I still don’t want to mess up and I still have such a hit in myself. like when I do, but those moments every single time are gifts, just as you’re saying. It’s 

Tami: so thank you for bringing up my girlfriend, Renee, because I had to talk about her and every episode and it’s, so it was so organic for you just to bring her up.

But my favorite description that she talks about her, just her describing the visceral feeling of shame is 

Corri: the wash. It 

Tami: feels like a hot flash people where it starts at the top. And then I can feel like 

Corri: molten 

Tami: lava just dripping down. And I’m like, I’m experiencing shame. It’s funny you guys bef at the beginning, and this is how easily it’s triggered in.

Corri: I would 

Tami: say lots of people is I was having technical difficulties and Corey and I had to connect and reconnect it. This is like the first in-depth conversation we’re having. And I had that like flop, sweat, shame, feeling of Oh, I’m messing it up with my new friend. And it can be as simple as that.

And then what I did was in that thought, I thought, Oh, you’re feeling shame. And I’m pretty sure that Corey understands how technology works and that she’s not thinking I’m a terrible host. And when we connected, I apologize. I sent her a note said, thank you for your patience. And of course she gave me the grace to be like, that was hard and now we’ve moved beyond it.

Corri: We can, they register to me as anything. Because I just, every time I get on, I have a technical even, but isn’t it funny how shame works. And, but 

Tami: that’s, I love when sh when girlfriend, Renee says it’s that wash and it doesn’t happen because her wash and my Mo wash matches. I’m like, Oh my God.

Yes. But it’s in those moments when you’re having any sort of conflict. Where do you experience it in your body? 

Corri: Because those can be the 

Tami: clues here 

Corri: to 

Tami: remind you that also we don’t die from those moments 

Corri: and other people are more courageous. 

Tami: Yeah. And other people can offer us grace in those moments.

And when they don’t offer us grace, we can offer it to ourselves. 

Corri: Okay. So how does the thing that I want to share is he says, that shame is the tool of the oppressor. The language of shame is the language of white supremacy culture. And that she’s convinced that, no amount of shame. We’ll whip anyone into anti-racist sheep.

And that goes for, because there is a lot of I’ve noticed it. The activism, allyship community. There can be a lot of judgment and shame around the ways in which people are doing things. And I probably have been in that at some point, I’ve been all of the things I’ve been performative in my allyship.

I have been judgmental in my allyship. But for the grace of God. So I’m of the mindset that, are there a lot of people right now that are on the woke train because it’s like, cool. Yes, but I want to be here to welcome people with open arms because we need people. Are people going to mess it up?

Are they going to do, yeah, we’ve never done this before, but I am not, I don’t become a better ally by making somebody else bad or wrong, in their allyship. Now accountability is a different thing. If there is an opportunity and there’s someone I’m in partnership or relationship or connection with where I see something that does not look or feel, good allyship, I’m going to hold people accountable in the same way that I hope.

It would hold me accountable, but I’m just not of the belief or the mindset that it does any good to, be judgy and harsh and call people out. that’s just not my personal style. Because we need to create. We need to task this web far and wide, and we need people to stay, for this to be a pivotal shift.

We need people to stick around. Even if this is currently a trend, that people want to jump on the woke train. We need people to stick around. ? 

Tami: I think that there’s. So I’m having conversations 

Corri: with way more people. Like I’ve 

Tami: been having these conversations for 35 years with my people. That’s why I’m only invited to certain people’s dinner parties. Cause I’m going to, I’m going to say something when you say something racist.

And then you’re going to be uncomfortable in your own house. So I don’t get invited to a lot of dinner parties, but that being said, I’m having these. And I’m like, Whoa, I’m having these conversations with all these nice white ladies that have never had these conversations before. And I’m super duper glad for it.

And I think if I could use my absolutely non-scientific. This is just what I think this is my opinion. Hello? Opinion alert. I feel like the pandemic is making people see 


Tami: they’re not off at soccer practice, so they are seeing things. People are engaging in online in ways that they’ve never engaged in.

They are seeing things in ways that they’ve never seen. And everybody’s feeling the effects of a collective traumatic experience. worldwide at the same time where all of these things are coming together and people like I, people can’t look away. There’s nowhere to there’s no soccer practice to run to there’s no, over-scheduling, there’s all of these things coming together 

Corri: and it’s wow.

I’m like 

Tami: welcome. 

Corri: And 

Tami: we’re all going to get yelled at. By someone and we’re all in another, let’s talk about Brittany Marks more. 

Corri: The story 

Tami: I’m telling myself, one of my favorite sentence starters is that people are always doing their best with what they have in the moment. And when we know better, we do better.

Thank you, Maya. Angela. So how does self care affect your work? Corey?

Corri: I have had. Through anti-racism work. I’ve had a real, shift around how I define self care. And I’ve been really grateful for black women. Who’ve been generous enough to share with me a little bit about what self-care means to them for a long time. I was really. I’m going to use the word programmed in the yoga and wellness community to view self-care as that really indulgent expensive, lavish, stodge and the pedicure and, my, 10 day, the Pasana retreat and my silent meditation, and going up to the mountains on a hike.

And, I think that can be very much a part of the wellness industrial complex. And so for a long time, I was of that mindset that if I was not doing those things, I was not practicing self care. And I’ll never forget. I hosted a couple of times now I’ve hosted dinners at my house that are, the focus is on intersectional feminism.

So very diverse group of women. I think. Maybe between 40 and 45 women, I’ve hosted it twice now. And one of the times there was a black woman that talked about, we talked as a group about self-care and kind of smashing that, like. Unattainable definition that society tells us like, this is what self-care is.

And so one of the women, a black woman who had come to the dinner shared that self care for her, oftentimes looks like walking down the sidewalk. And typically when a white person would be coming her direction, that it would be in her nature to move off to the side. And which is a very white thing to do, not to say I own this space, but to be completely oblivious and not make space, that’s a sweeping generalization, but I have found it to be true for myself.

And so she said, self care for me looks like being unapologetic about. Not moving when I’m walking down that sidewalk. And so that was super profound for me. It was like, wow, I need to really think about ways that self care can look like having a firm boundary and being unapologetic about that.

It can look like making a choice that is the hard choice, but also the right one. It can look like for me, saying no, and period, the end without a, and let me explain to you why, so that I feel better and you feel better and we can con no, So that has really been a gift for me in terms of defining self care and looking for it in new ways.

And then I see that actually, I’m able to, I have so many more opportunities to engage in self care than I ever did before. When I had this, like I need to, go out and get my stuff. Hot stone massage, and I need to get on a hike and you know that there are actually a lot of really beautiful opportunities for me to engage in self care every single day model, but profound.

Tami: couple of years ago, somebody else, that was a weird noise. Somebody read an article about self care, being the ability to create a life that you don’t need to escape from. And it was unsexy stuff like setting the foundation for your life of being like I’m going to spend a long, however long it takes learning how to sleep so that I’m rested.

Corri: Or 

Tami: resting when I’m tired 

Corri: or 

Tami: saying no to like my kid playing, saying no to my kid doing traveling soccer, because that’s crazy talk 

Corri: like w like 

Tami: you can, here’s a soccer ball, here’s a field. We don’t have to have a hotel or a competition or a Jersey or any of it. 

Corri: and self care being. 

Tami: I, the way I look at it is it’s more defining what happens internally than what you do externally.

And it’s, again, it’s setting boundaries, taking care of those foundational needs, including your money, including your physical space. but I teach a class called deferred maintenance. For people who put self care off and we do that unsexy stuff. I’m like, let’s talk about sleep for a week. Let’s talk about, eating fruits and vegetables and where those come from and what are you going to do with them?

and all those things that are basic foundational things that people feel like are 

Corri: optional, but they’re really not. Or that, 

Tami: because I want self-care to sustain the life. 

Corri: That you need in order to create the 

Tami: kind of world that you want to 

Corri: see, because you can’t have a bunch of 

Tami: burnt out people. I was going to say you can’t have a bunch of burnout.

People doing activism work, you can, but they’re burnt out and they’re tired. And if we all like created that foundation, 

Corri: we can all 

Tami: help create the world that we want. Okay. So what did you learn about self care growing up? You’ve mentioned that your mom was an activist and works in homeless ness and education.

So what did you learn 

Corri: either 

Tami: from her actions or her words about self care growing up? 

Corri: I think that was ever an explicit conversation. Like I just don’t think that’s something that we ever talked about. I think that one thing that I, that my mom has modeled for me, that I incorporate now into my life is the permission to rest.

And, there would be weekend days. My mom always worked full-time when I was growing up. Or the majority of my life. And she also had five kids. And so there would be Saturdays or Sundays where she would just stay in her pajamas all day. My mom was the furthest thing from a lazy person. My mom has to this day, she’s still working incredible work ethic, but she’s not afraid to rest.

And also she’s not afraid to. Say no to, she was not afraid to say no to her children. And, in some ways I think I may have at some points in my life viewed that as selfish, or as not engaged. And now as I get older, I feel. and now that I’m a mother of two children, I feel like I understand that completely differently.

And there are times, and I think my husband is very different and I think his mom was very different. She was at all costs. She is there for her kids. She could be hair on fire world on fire, but she’s going to be there for them, which is an incredible, gift to them. But I see this in my marriage sometimes that I am unapologetically not going out into the yard.

To play with my kids. And I’m just going to sit and fold laundry and watch a show in my room and I don’t feel bad about it. And I think that’s something that was modeled for me by my mom and my husband. Now that to him, just based on how he was raised in his constitution, haste makes waste.

Like he just, we gotta be doing something that for him is like, It’s just not who he is. And so part of our work and our marriage is me saying, I understand that for you, that is what drives you. And there are parts, that you’re out there working until you are like, hired to the bone and then you go play with them.

And that’s what works for you. And I accept that for you, but you. You are not going to be more bothered by my need to take care of myself and stay inside like that. it’s your being like not okay with me doing that is not going to change my level of okayness with it. I’m okay with it. I’m sorry that you’re not okay.

Or, that we see differently about that. it’s just, our constitutions are very different in that way. It’s 

Tami: funny. I, so I have two things. One 

Corri: once I leaned really hard 

Tami: into my own self care 

Corri: needs, I 

Tami: decided that I would also advocate for my husband to do the same. He’s a teacher and I work with a lot of teachers in my coaching practice because teachers are known.

As givers and givers and givers, and I’m like, you can’t be okay. There’s only so much you can give because you don’t have anything left. And so I liken our family, to a stool cause there’s three of us, three legs. And here’s the thing. If one of the legs on your stool is wonky. 

Corri: The whole stool doesn’t really work.

Tami: So we need strong stools. 

Corri: From 

Tami: that made it sound like poop. We don’t eat sure. We need strong poop too, but we need strong 

Corri: stools on our 

Tami: legs, on our stools so that the, that it’s solid for everyone. So one of the things that we do is every Saturday we have a family meeting. I literally asked my family, what do 

Corri: you need this week 

Tami: in order to do your best?

And we’ve been doing this so long that my nine-year-old is able to say, I need this kind of support. This is what it looks like. My husband, we’re able to articulate that because we freely give, because we’re 

Corri: all full. 

Tami: Because you can’t give what you don’t have. Yeah. Yeah. My mom taught me about rest.

Also, but it was this like, go tell you, can’t go stop, go tell you. Can’t go stop. And, but she also verbally said to me so much through my life, don’t do what I 

Corri: do what I say. I 

Tami: was like, that’s confusing. And thank you. it’s really hard because kids don’t typically do what you say they do what you do, but I did learn that lesson.

So the things that, how do you create your life currently so that you are supported to do the work that you’re meant to do in the world? So how do you practice self-care as a grownup? You say, no, you rest, you take your alone time. And 

Corri: I think those things. I think, I just, I think part of what has expanded my self care, engaging in self caring behaviors is my willingness to trust myself when something just feels like too much.

I think previously in my life I would have questioned when something felt like. So for example, if taking one more thing on felt like too much for me, My internal dialogue would go something like you just back out don’t, this is your tendency, you take it on and then you don’t give up before the miracle happens, got to stay the course you got to do, 

Tami: like an 

Corri: internal quitter talk to Oh, it’s and then I exhaust myself on top of already being exhausted by taking the thing on.

And now I am just at a place in my life where I just trust myself a whole lot more. Like I have this very crystal clear sense when I say yes to something, or no to something, or when I’m offered something to be like, that’s out of my comfort zone right now. And I might be to, stringent with that boundary.

But. Oh like the, I’m just less afraid to say no at, because I trust myself more. I just, I’d rather not take something on and not become overloaded because the reality is that working full time as a mother to two kids who for many years taught yoga and then, had a social life and tried to invest in my marriage and all of those things, I had very little actual literal capacity to take anything else on.

And now I’m just at a point where it’s I’m not, I. I used to say yes to so many things and feel resentful for the dinner that I had at seven o’clock that night. Like, why did I say yes to this? And I just realized the energy of having to carry not only going out and having that dinner, but the mental gymnastics of like, why did I do this?

I know this comes at the expense of. You know my marriage because I’m not giving enough there and my children because I’m ditching out on them. And my physical exhaustion that now I realize that the cost or the benefit of saying no far outweighs the cost of having said yes. It’s 

Tami: also just understanding that.

So cache and I have a yearly challenge where we do the no and November challenge, but it’s all about saying no that so that we can say yes to things that really matter. But 

Corri: in that 

Tami: little tiny course, we also give you like, here’s a script how to say no. And the idea is when we say yes to everything, our, yes, doesn’t mean as much.

And that moment when you learn that sitting in the discomfort of a no is way less labor intensive than doing the thing you don’t want to do. 

Corri: That is some 

Tami: freedom. 

Corri: My 

Tami: friend, Rosie Molinari who wrote a wonderful book about self, radical self-acceptance is called. Her book is called beautiful you. But in that, she talks about like the revenge cookies or somebody asked her to make cookies.

And then if she says, yes, she’s like stirring, poison, like energetic poison into the cookies. And she’s wow, I don’t. I just say no to baking the cookies and buy some cookies because kids don’t care about your poisonous energetic cookies. They just want the sweet, so just get them what they want. And she’s but sitting in that momentary discomfort of saying no is a practice, how did you get comfortable with that? Is that a yoga thing? 

Corri: You know what? I actually really do believe my yoga practice in many ways. Created. And also years of therapy created an opportunity for me to sit with what was uncomfortable and get curious about it rather than run away from it.

So like the physical, the Asana practice of yoga sitting in an uncomfortable pose and being like who I ha re growing my ability to respond, rather than react 

Tami: over here, turning internal cartwheels of yes. 

Corri: Yeah. The yoga works. 

Tami: Did the yoga. It’s funny because a lot of people, when they think yoga, cause guys, we’re not just talking about the Austin, which is the moving you’re like, put your foot here, have your hand be here.

But it’s sitting in that, what is my mind doing? What is my mind telling me about the situation? I’m probably not going to die from doing pigeon, but in pigeon, I might think I am, but really. Probably not, but being able to sit with it and be curious about it, and it’s like, where is this coming from?

Where is it going? And am I going to actually die? Oh, wait, that’s that wash? I was talking about earlier that shame feeling somebody sad wants me to do something. And then I want to say 

Corri: no, will they hate 

Tami: me forever? Oh, just you guys, as you’re listening, I want to just tell you a secret about saying no to a lot of times people just want a yes, they don’t need your yes.

Yeah. If you say no, they’re like, cool. I’m going to go to the next person on my list. Or you could say no, but you should try this other person. And then you are absolved of all things because they just want a yes. From someone, but at your personal, yes. They don’t actually care about your personal. Yes.

Unless it’s your best friend in which case that’s between you guys. But most people aren’t 

Corri: tripping on your note. 

Tami: Anyway, that’s something we should, 

Corri: for them, you might be able to be leading or teaching by example. And saying, no, I know that I’ve had that experience with people where they have said no to me.

And I’m almost an envy of their know, wow, they did that in a graceful kind way. I want to get better at that. 

Tami: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I will say it’s a practice, much like yoga and that I have gotten. So good at saying no to the things that I don’t want to do that now I’m saying no to the things I actually do want to do, but still don’t have the bandwidth to do them.

And I’m like, 

Corri: wow. So this is what they’re talking about. 

Tami: When they’re saying, choosing amongst your darlings, that you’re like, that’s why my yes. Means so 

Corri: much if 

Tami: I say yes to you. It’s because I actually want to do it. The thing. 

Corri: Yeah. That’s quality. 

Tami: Yeah. Like my, yes means a lot. My nose or a diamond doesn’t at this point, 

Corri: but it, but 

Tami: again, it took a long time to practice that.


Corri: So Corey, what’s your morning 

Tami: routine because everybody’s got one, 

Corri: but some people are 

Tami: like, I don’t really, and I’m like, no, but really what do you do? 

Corri: So I am going to, Share the two sides of Cori, morning rituals. The one where I am in my energetic spiritual group, Corey, and then the one that might presumably be my self-care.

We were both, laced with self-care, but they look very different. The first is, I guess maybe my ideal morning, I go let me start with the night before I go to bed at a reasonable time, I don’t stay up and read or watch something on Netflix. I go to bed at a reasonable time. I get a decent amount of sleep and I wake up by alarm, at five in the morning.

And then I sit in meditation maybe for 15 minutes. And my, my mantra in opening, my meditation usually looks something like, So God, I invite you in my life today. And I ask that you guide me and show me where it is that I should go, what it is that I should do what I should say and who I should say it to.

And may the bottom line. Always come down to love. I also invite you into all of my relationships, my husband, my children, my family, my dearest friends, my colleagues. I invite you into those relationships. And then I sit in meditation. And once I’m done with my meditation, I read some sort of spiritual texts or anti racist texts, or I just, before my kids wake up and I enjoy a cup of coffee in my, in contrast, I buy by nature.

I am a slow morning kind of person. Like just, it is in my makeup to take my time in the mornings, which is why a shelter in place has been so lovely. I love not having to get up and get into the grind. In fact, I’m probably more inclined when I’m in my day at day in, day out to do that 5:00 AM meditation because I’m getting up and getting moving anyway, and then going to work shelter in place.

I’ve been more inclined to sleep in. I’m often the last I’m awake when my kids are awake and my husband gets up, he usually makes the coffee, but I’m still in bed reading. Looking at my phone, seeing what messages I need to catch up on emails I catch up on. So I like to take my time. so those are the two sides of my morning ritual coin.

And I 

Tami: love hearing that, but they’re, they both exist because yes, because again, self care is between now and when we die, 

Corri: we don’t have to do it every day. 

Tami: We just have to know that there’s no, there, and what you said about. Calling in 

Corri: what 

Tami: you need to learn, what you need to hear, who you need to experience that with some people most people are like, I’m terrible at meditation.

I’m like, everyone’s terrible at meditation. Just sit. I hope to be better at it someday, but the reason I keep coming back is I have had those moments where. It’s usually like in a 15 minute meditation, I’ll be like minute 13 and 46 seconds. I hear some internal knowing, and I don’t know if it’s from inside insiders, but it’s exactly what I needed to hear that day.

And I’m like, 

Corri: Oh, I 

Tami: just needed to sit still. So that idea that thought that whatever right. Could come to me so I could hear it clear as day. So I know what I need to do next. There’s no amount of chasing an idea that’s gonna, that’s gonna make that happen. it’s in the quiet that it’s like, 

Corri: ah, this is where it’s 

Tami: all of my good ideas have been birthed in Shavasana or meditation.

Corri: Yeah. And 

Tami: I like to call it Shavasana. Just super comfortable meditation. 

Corri: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. I, I do love that, as a yoga teacher, I can’t tell you how often they hear Oh, meditation isn’t for me, I’m really bad at it. I’m like, Oh, just so you know, I’ve been doing it for. Over a decade and I’m awful at it, the miracle happens just like you’re saying, this is very much like therapy as a therapist.

I have experienced this with clients and also as a client in therapy that you might have a 50 minute session where you might have a 30 minute meditation and the magic happens in a moment.   I’ve been meditating for a long time now, and I will sit down and meditation and there are some mornings where I’m clear and it is wow, this is nice.

I feel peace. And there are mornings where I wake up and it is it sounds like just chaos in here. And I am just like almost making myself crazy, but the magic happens. Just the moment that I’m able to recognize it without getting completely lost and entangled in it. And just come back to the moment, having recognized it.

That’s the miracle, that’s the magic. And so I think it’s important that. And that’s actually where those, neural pathways are being built is when our brains are just like, and we have the ability to recognize that they’re doing that because there are other times where I’ve sat for three minutes and my brain, and I am just lost in thought, and I’m having this conversation with this person, and then I’m going to, there’s, I’m going to wear this outfit.

I’m going to go here. And the 30 minutes rough and I didn’t even get present once in that whole 30 minutes. So I tell myself that if I am able to, in the midst of all of that chaos happening in here, because I always say that our mind will continue to think thoughts in the same way our body will continue to breathe breath.

It’s our mind’s job. If we’re not thinking well, then, that’s just what our minds are here to do. But the magic, the miracle happens in those moments where I am in recognition. the chaos that exists within my mind. 

Tami: And I’ll just, I’ll take it a step further. The mind, my mind likes to lie to me.

Like it’s all lies in there. Like you’re going to die. If you don’t scratch your leg, you’re going to die. If you don’t look up that if you don’t Google this thing, this second, all you’ll be lost. 

Corri: I have to check the clock to see how much time is left. 

Tami: Okay. I have, but I have Google emergencies whilst meditating, and I’m like, Hey frame, I’ve been doing this for again over a decade.

I know that’s that Google emergency, that’s fake 

Corri: not having 

Tami: there’s no email emergencies or Google emergencies. And even if I forget it wasn’t my thing to have. I just have a trust that if something comes up in meditation, That, what I need at the end will still be there and I don’t need to make out with it while I’m sitting there.

Corri: That’s right. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. and again, because I have this story about being a quitter and what is hilarious is that people that know me are like, that is such a funny story because literally no one else on the planet has that story about you, but you, and I’m like, that’s okay, I’m carrying the water for the, I’m a quitter story.

So me showing up every day, 

Corri: To 

Tami: for myself for this moment of maybe quieting something in my mind, is showing me that I’m less of a quitter. That I have been led to believe by myself, but I’m like, you keep showing up. That’s not the actions of a quitter. You got their friends. 

Corri: So true. I relate to that very much 

Tami: Oh, perhaps a news story is in order and then I’ll stop meditating for a month.

I’m like, Nope. Still quitting. But it’s funny because one of the mantras in my coaching practice, especially in my group programs as quick quitting on yourself, Just keep coming back. 

Corri: Like for 

Tami: whatever practice you’re doing, just keep coming 

Corri: back. Yeah. 

Tami: And maybe over time you will be less mean to yourself about the break that 

Corri: you took for 

Tami: 17 years.

About that thing that he said he worked in too, but it’s Hey, we’re not dead yet. There’s always a chance for, your internal redemption to show up for yourself. So please 

Corri: do. Okay. What else 

Tami: do you think people should know about you or would you like people to know about you and where can they find you online?

Corri: All right. So what would I like? Gosh, I just feel like I’ve shared my life story here. what do I want people to know about me? Something I’m really present to lately in my activism. Anti-racist work is. That so fun fact about me or something that I’ve used as a fun fact about me for ever is that my great-grandfather on my dad’s side, was a man by the name of Charles Nora.

And he authored the novel mutiny on the bounty. Among other books. Yes, I know. And so wow, this is amazing. His heritage was, he was a German and British descent I believe came to the United States with his family was educated at Harvard and Stanford was a writer, wrote for, publication or journal in world war two, but then he, spent time down in Mexico, was able to travel a bit and ended up ultimately going to Tahiti.

And in Tahiti he met my great-grandmother and so he showed up on the Island. And so his time. On the Island of Tahiti really informed his novel mutiny on the bounty. And so for many years, so all of that backstory to say that for many years, I have been telling the story of my white great-grandfather, who had the fame and the success, and ultimately went to an Island.

And was a colonizer and it came to me a couple of years ago, I was in a yoga training and we were, it was like such a yoga training. It was a social racial justice yoga training, but, they had drums going and the meditation was to call upon your ancestors. And what came to me in that meditation was.

That my pollen, my Polynesian ancestors needed for their story to be told now. And my great-grandmother who was a full Polynesian woman, met and married this white man who. Then, my grandmother born and raised in Tahiti, like I have photos of her on the beach, writing tortoises, her life and everything she knew was in Tahiti at 16 years old, he uprooted their family and brought them to California.

And my grandmother’s heart was broken and really in many ways, never heal from that. And so I feel like in part, my activism work is. Is giving voice to my ancestors voices who were lost or not heard. And, so I feel like in internally I have one part colonizer and one part colonized. And so I’m just really in the process.

And maybe for many of us, we have that my husband is native American and white. And that internal dialogue for him is very strong. Similar about feeling like these, this internal, I sometimes feel like I want to speak to the manager and I own everything. Where is that coming from? And also this part of me that has, a lot of compassion and drive for justice for those being.

Colonized. So yeah, that’s, that is something that I’m really present to these days. Maybe something that will help to inform a bit of my activism. Yeah. I, of course am like that. I 

Tami: feel like that we 

Corri: white people 

Tami: because 

Corri: we are 

Tami: swimming in whiteness in the dominant culture. Like it takes a lot. Do you have to step out of the dominant culture and be like, wait a second?

What, what is whiteness? And I think that’s something that I’m working on because I have a degree in African-American studies, from UC Davis and.

 it’s just now at age 50 that I’m like, let me, I need to like, let’s construct whiteness so that I have something I don’t want to 

Corri: other people 

Tami: anymore. And that’s what we’re like when we’re looking to do anti-racist work. Like we need to also look at how race is created and how white supremacy has been treated and how whiteness has been.

The default. I think that there’s gonna be a lot, like rubbing up against that thing of like the fish in the water. Like they don’t know what’s there and breathing air. Like you can’t see it, but it don’t be there. And and I also think that with the, like I don’t have, I’m sure I don’t in my current awareness, I don’t have what my background is.

Other than I know in German. Half our time, I went to Germany. I was like, clearly my people are here because I love that. When you got quiet, you’re like, aha. This is there’s two sides and this is free. Can people find you online, Corey? And then we’re going to have 10 quick questions. 

Corri: All right.

Okay. So you can find me on my Instagram account. My personal account is at little neck for L I T L E N T a R. And I have recently started with two dear friends of mine. It is called act talk to your white friends. And so we got that up and running and we realized we pump the brakes a little bit on it because we really wanted to make sure that our guiding principles and our mission was Casey from the rage project or in Sacramento.

And she is a black woman who is helping to. Guide us in the creation of our mission and principles and those sorts of things. So once we do that, our hope is to maybe podcast as well as online content through Instagram. So you can find me there as well. And I also have a blog www.littlenectar.com.  

EP 72: February is the new January

EP 72: February is the new January


All right, where do I start? First things first. I am thrilled to have a new president. I am thrilled to have Kamala Harris, our first female vice president, our first black vice president, our first vice president of South Asian descent.

It honestly gets me choked up every time I think about it. We still have so much work to do, but I have hope for the first time, in at least four years that we can make some big changes over the next couple of years. And if you follow me on social media, you already know, um, that I have had some big personal news.

Um, I lost my best friend right after the election. She died unexpectedly. And, uh, we’ve spent the last couple months mourning and taking care of our family and friends. And I also wanted to say that we’ve been on the receiving end of so much love and kindness from this community that I wanted to say, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

This is not the last, uh, you’ll be hearing about tests or this big hole in my heart, but I just wanted to put that out there. As something that I’m working through, um, and reconfiguring what my future looks like, uh, with that big hole in my heart. So thank you for being there for me and thank you for having patients, um, with me and my process.

So now onto today’s show, I’m calling this February is the new January. Can we all agree that January, 2021 was not the brand new year. We’d all been promised, then selection, impeachment in the, in the inauguration. And that was just on Wednesdays. And in my head, I always had it that I would need to get to the inauguration before I could really feel like we were done taking out the trash from 2020.

And for the last decade or so, I’ve been playing with this idea of not starting a new year before the old one was finished. I know tons of people start thinking of their goals, like in October, November for the next year. And I have to say, I have just makes me anxious. I am anti that. So what I like to do instead is Reveley reveling in the holiday season, which means relaxing.

As much as I can and the months that are super busy and just letting the season be what it is, and really focusing on the connection that I can get with my family and myself, and really cozying and to the seasonal change. So what I’d like to do is wait till January comes and then spend the entire month of January.

Really. Like looking over what happened the year before choosing a word of a year and then really sitting down and thinking, what do I want to do with my life over the next 11 months? So if you’re feeling behind please, don’t we have 11 more months of the year. And we can make change in our lives.

Anytime it doesn’t have to happen in January. So this is just your reminder. You’re not behind, there’s no race, the pandemic’s not over. And perhaps we set our goals with those gentle reminders, um, in our hearts before we get at this year. So how do I start my year? Some practices I love are choosing a word of the year.

I’ve been doing this. I don’t know for like 15 years when I was a teacher, I did it mid-summer because I like to reflect on the school year and. You know, it just made sense to me that that’s what, how I was living my year. So my words start coming up with me and they start bubbling up and I start thinking about them mid summer, late summer in the fall.

But I really, you know, I audition words before. I take one on, cause I really try to like incorporate the word, uh, in all aspects of my life. So if you’re not sure what that’s about, you can go on my website and search through my blog archives, where I talk all about words of the year that I’ve chosen in the past.

Um, one year I chose connection one year I chose listen, one year I chose don’t take it personally. I have to say that was probably one of the most, um, life-changing. Um, years, because it was such a practice that I needed to take on. And this year, my word came to me as a gift from a friend. Actually, it was from Naomi who I interviewed in episode 71.

Um, I had a bunch of words in mine. And when I mentioned what the words I was thinking about taking on for 2021, she said, Oh, for some reason, I had a flash that your word would be processed for 2021. And I thought. Well, goodbye. All other words, I no longer need you because that word was gifted from the F the heavens.

I feel like it was exactly what I need for 2021, which is to slow down, to give myself time, to process my loss, to give myself time to process. Well, everything. I mean, we’ve all been living through. This global pandemic and it’s, it’s a lot friends. So if you’re feeling like it’s a lot, maybe we choose a quieter word this year.

So if you’re not sure how to choose a word of the year, like I said, you can search my blog archives. Um, I actually took a workshop, a vision spark workshop with my friend Rosie milliner. Molinari who I interviewed in episode 11, about how to say yes, wholeheartedly. Pro tip has a lot to do with saying no.

Uh, she. Has a really great system for choosing word of the year. Um, she’s really great at reflection and setting wholehearted goals. So I love working with Rosie. Um, all sorts of folks are doing work around the word of the year. Allie Edwards, who I interviewed in episode 18. She has a program called one little word and you can learn more about it and her at her website, or you can visit the show notes for episode 18.

And if you never caught that episode with Allie, I’d love for you to listen. And Susanna Conway is another coach who, uh, is generous enough to offer a class is a five day class on choosing a word of the year. And you can just Google Susanna Conway word of the year. And there you have it. One of the other gifts that Susanna gives every year is she does a workbook called unravel your year.

In the last couple of years, I have been doing that. Um, unraveled book with a group of amazing women here in Sacramento, and we did it live one year and then last year we did it on zoom. And this year I am doing the work on my own. So I’m making sure that I set aside time every month to make sure that I am revisiting that workbook and revisiting my goals and seeing if I’m on the right track of where I want to be going.

And then the practice I want to share today is from the happier podcast with Gretchen Rubin and Elizabeth Craft. And it is the 21 for 21 list. The basic idea is you write down 21 things you’d like to do in 2021. A lot of people when it comes down to it, They make like 21 resolutions. And I look at other people’s less than I start sweating under my armpits and thinking, Oh my God, that would make me want to stay in bed for the rest of the year.

So I made a list 18 for 18. In 2018, I made a 19 for 19 lists. And for some reason I skipped the 20 and 2020 list. Maybe I knew deep down some shit was going down and I don’t recall actually making a 20 for 2020. Oh, I did make one, but it was all financial stuff. Interestingly enough. Now I remember that.

Um, but anyway, today I’m going to share my 20. One for 21 list. Um, the reason I share today is to give accountability for myself because the more I talk about my goals, and you could enter your name here. The more you talk about your goals, the more you think about your goals and where you write down your goals, the more people you tell, the more likely you are to actually meet your goals.

Um, And I want to give you some ideas for ways to set goals that you actually want to do in an uncertain year. So my goals fall loosely into categories. The first category, coincidentally is also my word of the year. And that is process. When I think of process in this context, some of the things I want to do in 2021 are things that I do over and over again.

These are my favorite kind of, um, List to complete in a year because they focus on my active participation rather than on the outcome, because reminder we don’t control the outcome, we control our action. So one of those, as an example is I want to contact Congress at least 52 times in 2021. Why? Because.

Democracy, just like your goals requires active participation to get things done. How will I know what I want to talk about? Well, that’s a good question. I will follow some Twitter accounts of organizers that have been in the resistance. I will follow the lead of organizations that I believe in their mission, and I will not wait until I have a damn PhD in political science to actually contact my.

Congresspeople, and you don’t have to do that either. It can be simply you call during off time, which is a pro tip for introverts. You don’t have to talk to anyone, just leave your name and your zip code, and then say, I agree with, or don’t agree with X, Y, Z, give a reason or two and hang up. Your voice has been counted.

And I have to say as somebody who used to sit on the other side of the phone for these things, Calls matter calls matter, you guys. And if you do catch somebody live that answers the phone. It’s really likely that it’s like a college student, so don’t be freaked out. All right. So that’s a process goal.

The next category that my goals fall out, uh, fall into is figuring my shit out. So why does getting a new thing, make me freeze up and pretend like that new thing? Isn’t there an example. I bought an air fryer PS, one of my best pandemic purchases, because now I can eat as many French fries as I want at my house while they’re hot.

Cause nobody likes to take out French fry. But I got the air fryer and then it sat in my dining room, staring at me from the box for a month, because as soon as they got here, I was like, hooray. And then I freaked out, like, I don’t know how to use it. And I was telling myself, and you don’t know how to use it, so therefore you will mess it up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And at the story I was saying is I don’t have enough time to learn. Okay. We all know that’s BS. So I’ve been doing some experiments with starting new things, small steps, reminding myself that new shifts heart. And I just have to start. There you go. I’d got over myself. I started and now I’m making French fries all the time.

So I have a couple of other purchases that are sitting here in my house. And I’ll tell you about them later that I have to. Just figure my shit out. The third category is new ways of working. I’ve been working one-on-one with clients for years in 2020, I had several live rounds of deferred maintenance, my group coaching program.

And this year I’m an experiment with self-paced classes in order to offer my work in new ways. That way you get access to my work at a much lower price. I get to work one-on-one with people and. I do the work once and lots of people can benefit. So I’m going to experiment in 2021. So if you are excited about the idea of some workshops, make sure you get on my newsletter list and you can do that when you go to my website, www.tamihackbarth.com and you can.

Click on any of the links to say, Hey, I want to sign up and then I’ll send you a free gift called your 20, 21 self care planner. All right. And then the last category that my 24 21 list, um, comes in at is these are things that I actually want to do. So many times I see people put things on their list of things that they don’t want to do.

Like, I don’t know, lose weight. They want the thing, they want the outcome, but they don’t want to do the work to get there. So my goals are helping me achieve the life that I want, rather than a list of resolutions of things that I’m going to stop doing. I think actually wanting to do the thing that you’re setting yourself up to do.

We’ll help you actually achieve your goals. So something to think about as you set your goals for 2021. All right. Without further ado, here is my 21 four 21 list. And again, they only fall into four categories. Number one, use your cast iron skillet. I got one for my birthday. A couple of years ago. I got freaked out.

Didn’t know how to use it, and now I need to clean it, prep it and use it once. I have 11 months to use this cast iron scale. At one time before I have met that goal today, I want to plant 48 daffodils or tulip bulbs to commemorate my best friend who died when she was 48. And I want to plant bulbs of spring flowers because her birthday is in spring.

And they’re perennials and they’ll come up every year. And I can’t wait to have that as a greeting for us next spring, number three, find a new therapist, PS guys, I’m gray started this process and it turns out lots of health insurance companies are covering the cost of mental health care. So if you are feeling like you could use some support.

At a low cost start with your, uh, general care provider or call the County and see what kind of mental health services are available in your area. Number four, meet with my assistant Katie, the best person on the planet right here. Hi Katie, uh, meet with her once a week to actually discuss work goals so I can stay on track.

Number five, make a painted bead necklace. Does anyone else ever buy supplies for things and then put them away and never make the project? Oh, just me. Okay. So this year is going to be a year of using stuff I have already purchased or by the end of the year, if I have not made said bead necklace, I’m going to go ahead and give those beads away on my, uh, neighborhood free group.

Because you got to use it or lose it, friend. Um, all right. Number six. I want to make a mask chain. Cause it’s a little project I can make with my kid. I think it will be really cute. I want to water color. 52 times. I know 52 watercolors. I started this already. I have one. So I just got to do either. One every day for six weeks or just once a week, we’ll see how it goes.

Um, attend an online grief support group. Again, I’m getting, um, all the resources for taking care of my mental health and really processing grief through 2021. I think a lot of people are going to be on the, in need of those kinds of supports. And so I want to, uh, brush up on. What’s available in my area so I can pass that on to other people as well as benefit, um, by grieving with people who’ve lost people recently, like it’s a big deal.

All right. Number nine is contact Congress at least 52 times. Number 10, learn how to cast or mirror my iPhone to my TV. I don’t even know if I have the vocabulary yet, but I, I have heard rumors that you can make your phone and your TV work together. And I don’t know how to do it yet, but I really want to do that.

Um, cause I have some stuff on my phone. I want to share with my kid and I’d rather do it on a giant TV. All right. Some more process goals. Walk for 30 minutes, 240 times. I know why not 365 because. That sounds crazy to me, practice yoga 200 times, strength train 100 times. Yes. I’m going to be keeping like gold star charts, checkoff lists tracking every month.

These things work for me, these tracking things and, and putting these process goals. Notice, I didn’t say fit into a, a different size pants or. Go on a yoga retreat or whatever. I just, I want them to be processed goals because these are habits I’m cultivating and they’re things that I’m paying attention to and making sure that I have them in my 21 for 21 list makes me look at them all the time and go that’s right.

I’m focused on these things. Okay. Make 12 new vegan recipes. I don’t know about you, but I am. I have been, um, not feeling cooking the 100000000th meal during shelter in place slash quarantine. And so I need some new recipes, uh, since setting this goal, I’ve already tried three and I am thrilled. Last night, I made tofu ricotta.

I know a lot of people just went ill, but I’m allergic to dairy. So tofu, ricotta ravioli, and it was so easy and so delicious. So, uh, more new recipes for our family and 2021 number 15, collaborate on a grief series for the podcast. I know you guys are all waiting to find out more about grief, but. It’ll come in handy someday.

So I want to make sure I create that resource number 16 started democracy club. And if you don’t know it, didn’t ocracy club is I interviewed the creator of democracy club, Asha Dorn Fest in episode, number 70, go back and check it out and go read her, um, op ed and the Oregonian all about how to. Get involved and stay involved without it being your job.

But being an active participant in democracy is going to be important for all of us going forward if we haven’t already been there. So again, putting that out there as I want to make sure I’m making a big enough difference in how things work. All right. Number 17, watched 12 skill share classes and experiment with this new information.

I bought a subscription to Skillshare because I was watching a, my favorite YouTuber. And then I realized I wasn’t using it. And then the other day I thought, you know what? We’ll make sure you use it. Put on that 21 for 21 list. Then I watched a 30 minute watercolor. Uh, video class and my kid has been water coloring every day.

Since then I’ve made one and now I have a goal around water color. So if you haven’t yet heard of Skillshare, go check them out. Um, lots of great classes. Number 18, read 12 books I already own. Okay. If you follow me on Instagram, which I hope you do, you can find me there at Tami. Hackbarth, you know, I read a lot.

In fact, I have my own hashtag, which is hashtag Tammy reads a lot. If you’re friends with me on good reads, you know, I read a lot and here’s the thing. What I haven’t been doing the last couple of years is reading the books that are in my house. Like I get a book as a gift. Totally forget about it. Get it, get a book from a free library.

Totally forget about it because I’m so focused on doing audio books on my phone and reading for my Kindle that I totally forget to read books on paper. So I have a goal now to read 12 books I already own and then pass them on via the little library down the street from our house. Okay. We have another, I bought a thing and didn’t set it up.

Got a robot robot vacuum. And I need to set it up. It’s sitting in the box. The box has dust on it. Need to use it or return it. Number 20 monthly unravel dates, uh, with myself on the last Sunday of every month. Remember unravel is that excellent workbook from Susanna Conway? And, uh, number 21 finish at least one online course I’ve purchased over the years.

I don’t know about you, but I have a lot of half finished courses in my inbox. And I would like to actually finish some classes because I know all the stuff that I have purchased from wonderful coaches and teachers throughout the years is great information. And I don’t need more of it. I need to finish what I have.

And finally, one that pertains to all of you is. This is the bonus. This is asterix. Number 22, release the self care quick start a new mini course, and the quarter one of 2021 released deferred maintenance as a self study class in quarter two of 2021. And I’ll also be doing three live rounds of deferred maintenance in this year and ways.

If you would like to work with me on life satisfaction and. Doing that one-on-one I am available. I have a couple of clients spots, um, each month. So whenever you’re ready, I’m here for you. All right. That’s it for now, friends. I hope to connect with you more in 2021. Head on over to the show notes at www.tamihackbarth.com/episode 72, where you can find the links for the references that.

I talked about it on the show. I also have the 20, 21 self care planner available for you and be sure to follow me over on Instagram until next time. Remember that you matter too.


EP 71: Finding Our Own Leadership with Naomi Hattaway

EP 71: Finding Our Own Leadership with Naomi Hattaway


Tami: Good morning. 

Naomi: Good morning. 

Tami: Oh, glad that you’re here. So for my friends who have not yet had the pleasure of meeting you yet, Naomi, can you tell us who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Naomi: That’s such a good question. There was that thing that went around a while ago. And I think it was a, from a poem where it was I am of, or I am from, did you ever see that where people, and I have always loved that because I think that part of who we are is such a patchwork of where we came from.

I am. In my mid forties, I am post-menopausal. I’m the mom of three. they are twenty-five 17 and 14. I’ve been married to my husband for going on 18 years and I am a problem solver. I’m an avid book reader. I used to be a wonderful gardener, turned. Subpar in Gardner recently. and the work that I do in the world, intersects between being a bridge for gaps that I see and.

Also a Firestarter to bring others in the community along to carry on the work. I used to, when I was younger in my career, always looked at it as a bad thing that I would jump into a project, get something started, and then I would leave it. and then recently I’ve been able to reframe that as, being a Firestarter that I bring along others to carry on the work, in the way that the community needs it in the future.

So. That’s a short answer. 

Tami: I absolutely love the idea of reframing how you talk about yourself. Cause I used to talk about myself as being like a professional procrastinator or somebody who didn’t finish. Yeah. And I’ve had to reframe that my procrastination isn’t that I’m waiting until the last minute, because I’m lazy or useless it’s because I am sleeping it, dreaming it, bathing with it.

I am chewing it up. I’m digesting it. I’m coming around to it. And by the time I opened my mouth or put my fingers to my keyboard, what I produce is pretty much a first and final draft 

Naomi: of the most things. I love it. 

Tami: but boy was that really hard to come to terms with. And also I’m not a huge finisher, so you don’t want deal.

I hire part of my family success team as a finisher work with a professional organizer. She’s the one that takes the stuff to the thrift shop. Or my husband does, I just want to play to our own strengths. So tell me. How does this play out in your professional life? This being a Firestarter and a, I see a problem and I want to help fix that.

Naomi: I think so. In the last five years I’ve done primarily nonprofit work. before that I was a full-time volunteer when we lived overseas, because I couldn’t work because of work visa situations. And then I also run and own my own real estate company. So I think in all those instances, I just started to realize.

The beauty of true collaboration and not just collaboration as a buzzword, but really finding folks that have different skillsets, different strengths, even when they’re uncomfortable for me. because we really do go farther together. And so with my non-profit work, I’ve learned to be very clear with my future bosses or future board of directors in saying these are the things that you’ll want to find someone else to do similar to what you were talking about, Tammy, Here are the things that I am not great at. And so if you ask me to put those on my job duties list, you will be disappointed. and being able to clearly state that at the beginning has been enabled me to sit very firmly in the things I’m great at. And to your point about finishing, making sure that there’s someone on the team or at a Beck and call to be able to have them come in.

and the other thing too, about not being a finisher for me, I have had to learn to sit on my hands. I’ve always been a hand raiser. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. And someone told me very wise suggestion that the more I sit on my hands, the more it enables someone else to fill that space by raising their hand.

And I think about that a lot too. if I am silent just a little bit longer, someone else will volunteer. Or if I don’t jump in. And it’s not that I’m trying to pass the buck it’s that someone else has a better skillset to finish or to pull things together or to professionalize a project than I do.

I think it’s also a part of how I work in that, I guess seeing a gap sometimes can be looked at as complaining or a negative Nelly or, Squeaky wheel. But I think part of what I bring to the table is also a diverse set of options for solving the problem so that it’s not just, Hey, here’s this big hole in the road that we’re coming up to.

It’s, we could go around it, we could build a bridge over it. We could turn around and go a different way. and I think that’s something that I’ve learned how to hone is being able to present options to people. So then as a collective, then we decide what’s best for the group. 

Tami: Okay. I have so many things to say about this one is by chance.

This is a question I haven’t already presented to you. Have you taken the strengths finder? I have. Okay, because I feel like we might have some intersecting strengths because I’m like, girl, you are speaking my language on so many levels. 

Naomi: Well, I can tell you my top five, but I don’t 

Tami: ever remember 

Naomi: the rest.

Tami: Oh. And the rest are irrelevant to me as far as I, I only tell me your top five, 

Naomi: my top five are futuristic input. Yep. Arranger. Okay. Individualization and connectedness. 

Tami: Interesting. Mine are input. Hi. We like to read, learner and the strategic and activator. So I like to say mine are, I like to read, I like to collect things for you to read.

I feel your feels. I have solutions to all of the problems and all of the world, and I won’t take it personally. If you just choose one, like I’m not married to the answer. The answer. I am married to an answer. Like I don’t see a problem without a solution. 

Naomi: Because there’s multiples, right? Oh my God. 

Tami: One of the things I loved about being a teacher, as I was always like, okay, here’s a multiplication problem.

Solve it in any way that comes to your mind, but you have to be able to explain it. And this drove other teachers crazy. They’re like, why don’t you just teach them how I’m like, cause these fools teach me stuff all the time. And this one kid who had such an. Different way of looking at how to solve a problem.

I was always like, okay, dude, stand up, teach us how you did that. Take us through your thinking. And I would poke at it and poke at it. I was like, okay, well, what if you try it with these numbers instead, he’s it’s still works. And it was such an interesting dialogue to have with a nine year old for them to be able to really get into their thinking.

I was like, shut up. You totally taught me something. I’m not a hundred percent certain that it works in all situations. However, if I had never asked the question, I would not know that there was different ways to think about this. 

Naomi: Well, and think of that. Think of that exact same thing that you just said in a team environment with other adults.

I am. If I let myself be surprised, if I let myself sit. In the space and the quiet or the stillness, or to your point, ask someone else to step up and show their work. Yeah, always I’m like, Oh, that’s a better way to do it. plus it enables their own growth too, as a person, I think that we in work. so often that hierarchy stunts.

Our own growth and to be able to do what you did with that. Nine-year-old and some of the ways I work with my team, I mean, talk about showing others that they have something to add to the solution also. It’s great. 

Tami: Also you, I mean, if you, Hey guys, if you don’t know this yet, if you ask people for their opinion on how to get things done, boy, let me tell you get a lot more, buy-in on actually getting the thing done.

Cause I even wedded to how it’s done. I’m just wedded to that. It’s done. 

Naomi: Yep. I think I would agree with that and add that sometimes you don’t even have to take any of the solutions that were offered to have the buy-in. So I think a lot of times people get scared of asking for. 20 people’s opinions, but it’s the process of the dialogue and yeah, the engagement.

Tami: Well, it’s the whole sheer fact of being asked. 

Naomi: Yes, 

Tami: absolutely. So it’s funny. Cause I did a listener survey of the podcast last year and I asked people for feedback. And one of the feedbacks I got was I love hearing about all these entrepreneurs, blah, blah, blah. But what about people? I call them civilians.

Civilians are people who work for other people who bring other people’s dreams to life who work for the state or work for an association or do nonprofit work. so that brings me to you do a little bit of all of that, right? 

Naomi: Yeah. what crossed my mind as you were saying, the difference between that?

I think that, I have, yes. What is Jean of the civilian work is that you are asked to be creative and bring your best self inside someone else’s construct, where as an entrepreneur, you get to redefine your box every day. If you want to, And so the current work that I’m doing in nonprofit and part of the reason I decided to run for office was because I started getting frustrated with the policies that I was being asked to work underneath.

In non-profit, especially in the housing space, in the youth and talent retention space, there was just a lot of moments where I was like, Oh, if only we could do this way, then I was like, Oh, but that’s a policy issue. And then the more I sat with myself, the more I realized that my next iteration is the responsibility to rewrite some of that, through legislation.

So. Yeah, I guess the answer to that question in a way that wasn’t really what you were asking is that yes, I’m I work in all of those spaces, so 

Tami: this is probably a good time to let our audience know the reason that Naomi and I, our paths have crossed is because we are part of a community of women over 35.

And one of us is running for public 

Naomi: office. 

Tami: It’s not me. Can you tell us, can you tell our listeners what you’re running for and how did you come to this? You’re like, I see a problem and I think I’m the one that needs to help try to fix it. So what are you want for in 

Naomi: my past those problems that I’ve seen have been things like.

Starting a school tour for kids that arrive in a foreign country over the summer and need to see their school grounds. And now my problem that I see fixed is like on a city level, but, I’m running for Omaha city council. Omaha is a Metro of about a million people in the middle of Nebraska. And the city council has seven seats and they are all up for reelection in 2021.

And I would like my name to be on district sixes, representation. So, yeah. and you and I connected because you, offered to just spend some time talking through some early strategy, and I saw appreciate it, and I’m so glad we’re connected 

Tami: you and I have chills every time a woman says. I think I’m going to run for office.

I mean, I kind of feel a little bit like Jimmy Stewart 

Naomi: and it’s 

Tami: a wonderful life. Every time the bell rings, it’s not an angel, get their wings. It’s a woman, signs up to run for office. And I am the lucky recipient of hearing that bell, I think more often now than ever. And people whisper to me. I think it’s part of my job as a coach.

People love telling me their secrets and one of the secrets that. More and more women are saying as I think I’m going to run for office. 

Naomi: Yeah. Which is amazing. 

Tami: yeah, it is. 

Naomi: I think interesting. It gives me chills. I think that we are on a press pissed. Praecipe why can’t I ever say the right word precipice of praecipe as a legal document.

Precipice is the edge of the cliff. I think we’re on the edge of also it being a little bit more. Transparent to know what it’s like to run for office. I think that I have gathered so much information from other women who have run and it’s kind of like childbirth, it’s hard and there’s some pain and it’s amazing.

And then yet when you talk to people who’ve been through it, they’re like, Oh yeah, you should do it. And then period. End of sentence. And then you find yourself in the middle of it and you’re like, Holy hell, this is something, 

Tami: I never, I did not become a mother through a birth, but I imagine it’s like being in labor in your life.

I was just kidding. I don’t know if I want to do this and they’re like too late. You’re already. Yep. 

Naomi: Well, it’s the same as, I mean, you can assign it physical pain to the process of childbirth. but it’s anything, it’s the act of parenting. It’s the act of, showing up for your community. It’s deciding to protest anything that takes you through a wild range of emotions in a short amount of time.

I think you can liken to running for office, except that you bared your entire soul to a lot of people who you don’t know. I decided to run for office, for a couple of reasons. One, because I know in my heart and with all every piece of intuition that I have that 2021 for our city for Omaha needs leadership that is accessible, that is connected and engaged with the actual humans that our elected officials are supposed to serve.

And going back to that collaboration and that commitment to. Community excellence. we don’t have that in our city council right now. And I know that I can bring that to them. if you look at it on a surface level, being black and white, biracial, I checked the box for a physical representation of diversity that we also need on our city council, but I’m also, I also identify as a disabled person, due to a chronic illness and an accident that I had, that needs to be represented on the city council.

and. This is the thing that excites me the most. I know how to speak the language of multiple folks, not actual languages, but the way that we speak and the way that we get things done and the way that we connect with each other. And that’s also sorely missing. So there’s not a whole lot wrong with the dude that’s currently in office.

and so I’m excited about that actually, to just run a race of who is the better leader, Instead of it becoming a nasty thing. So that was a lot of words, Tammy, 

Tami: but, and they’re, but they’re such good words. And here’s the thing I want to, I feel like part of my mission in life is to demystify people taking.

Risks and specifically people, demystifying, people being involved civically. what’s been interesting over the last four years. I mean, I have a degree in political science. I worked in politics for a decade. I did everything from lobbying to fundraising, to grassroots, organizing to constituent services and the capital.

Like I did a little bit of everything looking for my slot in that world. I did not find it, but I feel like it, that my slot in the political world is being created for me because people are there. I think of their politics, curious, but they’re afraid of it. And I’m like, Oh, I can totally help you demystify things.

And when I am in the teacher, demystifier mentor, let me hold your hand and give you some tips. everyone shines. Yeah. And it’s super duper exciting for all of us. 

Naomi: It’s also what I think that I’ve watched you do through your social media, through your podcast and through, like you mentioned, with the, community of women over 35.

Is redefine what civic engagement looks like. It doesn’t have to be running for office. It can be writing postcards. It can be learning by watching a script of how to call your representative to say, I don’t think I agree with this, or would you consider this it for some people it’s protesting, for some people it’s voting, so I think that’s politics and civic engagement feels scary until you and you do a great job of it.

Break it down. So it’s quite sizable for people where it can meet them, where they’re at. so I, I appreciate that from you. 

Tami: Thank you. That is definitely what I’m trying to do. And it feels like exciting work in it because it’s a way, that makes it accessible for people who feel like, Oh, that’s for old, that’s for them over there because they know more.

And I’m like, Oh no, your mom. plenty. Oh no, you’re a teacher. I’m gonna tell you what, way enough, like also we don’t have to be experts in everything too. Shouldn’t be 

Naomi: actually 

Tami: exactly to be, to affect change. Like we are able to come together. 

Naomi: Well, and I think that’s something that I also, I would add to the why I’m a better candidate than our current representative.

I hear so many times, and sometimes it’s typically a male dominated response. like everyone, I did not know everything and we need leadership. That’s willing to say, I do not know the answer to that question. And then either open the door to say, can someone else help me understand? Or even just say, I mean, this would be amazing.

Give me a couple of days and I’ll come back to it. 

Tami: because feel like that’s a parenting one Oh one lesson, 

Naomi: right. Well, 

Tami: I mean parenting teaching, I mean, kids, when I was a teacher, kids would come up to me and they’d say, I want to do, yeah. They would say, Oh, do you know XYZ about blah, blah, blah, dinosaur?

And I was like, you know what? This has never come up in my life. And this is, I realized what I’m going to say might sound rude to grown up ears, but hang with me. I would say I’ve never cared about that. So I didn’t take the time to look it up. But 

Naomi: I’m saying it 

Tami: right, but you who has the natural curiosity about that, you might become our classroom expert in that thing.

And they’re like what I’m like. Yeah. Why don’t you become the classwork classroom expert in that thing that maybe only you are interested in. And, then let us know how it goes, because also through you sharing your expertise on that thing, I might become excited and maybe I will want to learn about the thing, but that hasn’t struck my fancy yet.

So please go forth and become the expert. And they were like, you’re weird. Okay. I’m like their libraries over there. I don’t care about trains or dinosaurs, but bless your little heart, the blush a little hearts there. 

Naomi: So I think that’s fantastic. One of the, state senators, when I was doing gun violence prevention work said to me, cause I was like really hard on him for not understanding the knowledge that I knew.

And he’s I can’t know. It all literally physically cannot. So I would love, and he did what you just said. I would love for you to bring me back a three page no more, please. Just three pages on the things that most, you know, that where we could have the most impact. And that was when I first started realizing, we hold our leaders to a really unattainable pillar of knowing the right thing to say immediately rapid response and knowing everything and it’s not tenable.

and so I want to, through my campaign starts to normalize letting a leader, ask questions back. 

Tami: Absolutely. Well, the other thing that has come up is that people feel like that they can’t have an opinion on something. Unless they are an expert, but here’s the thing. I just want to take this veil down.

People who run for office and people who win, they are human beings and I’ve seen, cause I’ve been on both sides of the proverbial table. I’ve been a lobbyist where I go and I educate legislators about stuff. Or their staff. And a lot of times they’re like shut up. I didn’t know that. And you’re like, I know, right?

And they’re like, Oh, my person who I work for will be very interested in that. And they usually say, do you know anyone who this is directly affecting? And then you’re like, I could parade 15 families that this is going to harm, or this is good. I can parade 15 families that this is going to help. So the thing that changes the minds of people who are in office.

Is education. 

Naomi: Yeah. 

Tami: and education coming from real people. Oh, my, it is the most effective, 

Naomi: well that too. That’s another example of a civic engagement moment. Being the advocate to help connect those 20 families with the elected official is a beautiful form of civic engagement. so I think that’s the other piece for people that are listening, who maybe don’t want to run for office, or don’t want to go testify at a city council meeting.

If you know of something that’s about to go down in your community and, have people that will be adversely or positively impacted, You can just be the convener of those voices in those stories. 

Tami: Yes. And you can write letters. I am a public, I’m a public comment or like nobody’s business. I don’t want to talk in a microphone.

The irony of me is saying that whilst I’m on a microphone, right. The second, however, I am in my house and no one is looking at me. but I love leaving public comment because those things that get counted, so, okay. So can you speak a little bit about. cause I’m just going to say it. I know there has to be a doubt of no way here.

I’m going to tell you guys I’m real. Well-versed in the subject of imposter syndrome. I like to wear my imposter syndrome Cape, like. How do you, how did you, I’m going to go out on a limb and say you probably suffer from it because most people do, but, so how did you tango with that notion of, I don’t know enough in order to make this step.

Naomi: So, it’s timely for you to ask that question. I just had a piece that I wrote published in darling magazine, about this very thing. And when I started, so I’ll back up just a little bit. I broke my leg in an accident in December, and so I’ve been, quarantining before the quarantine and started to write my memoir.

Mostly for myself. but I started to realize that the through line of my imposter syndrome was not knowing enough. I was homeschooled as a child before it was legal to do so in the state of Nebraska, the board of education would not award me a diploma. So I got my GED when I was 30 and pregnant in a room full of incarcerated folks, all handcuffed to their tables.

And I think that’s part of that input with my strengths. I am, I’m so hungry for knowledge, and it’s only been recently that I started using my own quotes and my own statements as valid things to share instead of other people’s words. And so my imposter syndrome does look like not knowing enough, what I’ve been battling with and will probably continue battling with is removing it as a day-to-day piece of my life.

And I visually put it in a corner. I put a chair literally in the corner of my office so that my fear and my imposter syndrome can just sit there. I. Want to be able to keep my eye on it, look at it, acknowledge that it’s there. another candidate told me recently that she reminds herself I belong here and there’s no better time for me to be than right here and right now.

And that has also resonated with me. imposter syndrome is a real thing and it can be debilitating. But so far what’s worked is that visualization of yeah, I see you over there in the corner where it’s not going to impact my work. 

Tami: I love that. So many people feel like they have to beat back their fear with a stick.

And I’m like, well, that does make your fear. Want to fight you 

Naomi: a lot of energy though. 

Tami: That’s a lot energy. Exactly. And so one of my, practices. That I learned from one of my great teachers, Rosie Molinari if 

Naomi: you don’t know yet, 

Tami: Rosie, she is an excellent teacher about, body positivity and just basically awesome living.

She has a book called beautiful. You love it. but anyway, Or one of her things is one of the exercises in her book. Beautiful. You is to name your critic. And so my inner critic’s name is blanche. Oh, she has a filthy mouth and that girl she wants to keep me so safe. She doesn’t want me to do things like cross the street or speak up at about anything.

And so I kind of have to hug her like, Like of mouse and men style. Like I’m gonna squeeze you and love you and hold ya. And it’s the 22nd hug. If I hug her for 20 seconds, she’ll relax a little bit and maybe listen, right. It’s it’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay. she’s constantly screaming, but what’s the worst thing that can happen.

And I’m like, I now plant thanks for always reminding me to look for the terrible things. Thank you. I think I, I’ve never had a day in my life where I didn’t think the absolute worst. Right. So in the last few years, since I have stopped trying to fight her, I have been asking her in counter to that.

And that is, yeah, but what’s the best thing. And so when I think of you running for office, like some people would say, Oh, the worst thing that could happen is that you lose. And I’m like, Oh, friends, Oh my God, you are so shortsighted. So not the worst thing. However, the best thing that could happen is that you could actually help the people in your community.

Right. You could do that. That would be the best part. Right? Well, there’s that, 

Naomi: there’s actually a beautiful thread of things that can all be woven together just in the act of running that can, hold up the mirror to our elected officials in a sense of what is your responsibility? And are you.

Measuring up to what you said you would do, reminding others that it’s possible. I got a message last night from a gal who wants to run for something and she just gave me some encouragement and I have never been so empowered and encouraged. By watching the way that you’re running for office. And I think that’s what it’s about too, for my daughter and for my friends, and for those in my community.

that’s what, that’s the best thing that could happen. 

Tami: Absolutely. So I do have a question. Did you, or did you go through a, I’m a first-time candidate, I’m a female candidate training. 

Naomi: okay. So we have, there’s a couple of things I would recommend, Tanya Geisler, is a fabulous coach. And I have to just give her a little bit of a shout out.

She has done some work with me around, the imposter complex and establishing, what it is that I’m here to do. So I she’s amazing. She’s got. Some stuff all over, Facebook and Instagram and on some free things. there’s also a local group of women called women who run Nebraska and they have an incredible, set of support that they offer women in Nebraska.

And then also the run for something, I’m too old to be a candidate for the run for something group, but they also have 

Tami: stellar, 

Naomi: Tools and trips, tips, and webinars and workshops and such. But I will say that it got a little bit to that, like input learner overload, where I was like, wait, this is I okay.

I’ve absorbed too much. Now I just need to step out in faith and know who my inner circle. You’re one of them. And I’ve got some people here locally where I can just throw things off of and throw spaghetti on the wall. So, yes, I guess as a first time candidate, I would say it is important. To do some workshops in some learning.

And it’s also really important to trust yourself and figure out who you’re, who’s gone on the ride with you. 

Tami: Absolutely. And also know that, being nervous about something feels like fear feels like anxiety, but just to reminder your body feels exactly the same way when you’re excited about something.

Yeah. If I tell that myself a lot at 4:00 AM excited about a project. I’m like, why can I not sleep? And I’m like, Oh, my body is like, Hey. So anyway, we were thinking about this great thing also, when I’m super anxious about thing, my body likes to wake me up at four o’clock in the morning to worry about things.

So, but it feels exactly the same. So you can also reframe the idea of I’m scared to death to do this. And, or it could be, Oh my God, this is the most exciting thing ever, 

Naomi: I think. Yes. And I also thinking, as you were talking, one of the things that has helped me is identifying two or three really bad-ass.

Female candidates, not necessarily elected because I think there’s, bad-ass Surrey in the folks that run and don’t win, to just follow, become so obsessed that you are on their mailing list. You’re following their socials. what have you, cause there’s something to be said about gleaning wisdom and advice and courage by just kind of sidling up next to folks.

And that’s been helpful for me too, is identifying some key folks that I’m like, I want to do it like them. that’s something I would suggest also. 

Tami: I love that. So Naomi, 

Naomi: Tammy, 

Tami: I have a question and because by podcast is all about self care. you ha you wear a lot of hats. You have the mom hat, you have the non-profit hat.

You have the entrepreneur hat, you have the I’m a candidate hat, How does self care affect your work in all these arenas?

Naomi: So I will say as maybe a necessary caveat or maybe it’s unnecessary. I don’t know. My children are of the age where they are super self-sufficient. So I will answer this question as a mom of a 14, 17 and 25 year old. I’m able to carve out time in my morning and carve out time in my evening that is not filled with active parenting.

So I will say that I feel extremely thrilled about that piece of my self care. I go upstairs, which is where my bedroom is, at eight o’clock every night. I do my part to shut down the house, the rest of it’s on the kids, their responsibility. And then I’ll just, I mean, it sounds silly, but I have a heating pad.

I got a really amazing heating pad. I. Usually have a pot of tea. and I sit in silence an awful lot these days. I love music, but unless I can be intentional about the purpose of it, I prefer silence. and so for me, silence is self-care, I also do a lot of writing. sometimes it is gibberish.

Sometimes it makes zero sense and sometimes it’s very intentional. and so I do a lot of my writing at night. 


and then little things like I sleep with my window open as much as I can because I sleep better that way. I. Make sure that I’ve got my space in the morning set up so that I don’t have to, again, that energy spending business, I’ve pared down my closet so that I wear often the same thing several days in a row.

It’s easier during quarantine of course, but, just removing some of the things that society or our past tells us has to be part of our routine has been an incredible piece of self-care for me. so simplifying, I guess, I’m 

Tami: over here, shaking my head. Like I’m a bobblehead. Yes. I mean, for real on the, what shall I wear?

I’m like, well, I have 10 dresses, so it’s going to be one of those things like which lipstick made aware. Well, I have two. So go ahead and pick one. Well, and 

Naomi: I’ve gotten to be like, I love earrings are my thing. And I realized, I was like, Oh, I could wear the same dress every day. I can spritz it with refresher and throw it in the dryer.

I’m not like out sweating. That’s not part of my job so I can wear it every day and just throw in different earrings, feel, put together, feel camera ready and feel, capable to do my job. and be really simple about it. no one cares. I also haven’t worn a bra since December 28th, so I guess that’s good for something too.

Yeah, that’s funny. Self-care 

Tami: I have to tell you, there are so many of those memes that like home is where the bra isn’t and I’m like, I would wear my bra 24 hours a day. I love them wearing one right now. but ask me the last time I put shoes on that. Weren’t for exercise. 

Naomi: You know what I did today, Tammy?

My daughter forgot something and I had to take it to her to school and I. Winton my slippers and I was very proud of it. I was like, this actually feels great. No bra slippers. I don’t know if that’s appropriate for a candidate, but, I thought it was just fine. 

Tami: yes, I have to say I’m a fan of the conversations I’m seeing online about people talking about What will we do with the high heels?

Will we have a high heels museum because no, one’s going to be wearing heels after COVID. They’re like, I’m sorry, my feet have expanded back to their natural size and I don’t do that anymore. 

Naomi: Amen to that. 

Tami: Right. I’m like, . 

Naomi: There might be some relationships museums that need to happen too. 

Tami: Oh, I keep whispering about, so you might get a new spouse and people are like, I know, right.

Naomi: It’s so it’s, so that’s a form of self-care too. Is pairing garden of like weed out, weed, out, weed out. 

Tami: yes. Okay. So, we are gen X gals. So what you’re gen X, right? 

Naomi: Yes, I am. Okay. I don’t know why I was disappointed. 

Tami: I’m like, wait a second. I was doing the math. I’m like, no, your genetics too. Yeah.

so what did you learn about self care growing up? 

Naomi: I know 

Tami: exactly where like nothing. 

Naomi: So it’s an interesting, and so mom, if you’re listening to this is all set in love. my mom was the poster child for minimalism. no makeup, never. our clothes were either handmade or passed down or what have you.

And that kind of, resonated through everything. And so she actually was a great example of self-care. It just took me all these years to realize it, lots of time outside, healthy foods in our body. we were a slow household, slow lifestyle, slow living. part of that was because we were homeschooled and we had the opportunity to do it.

And part of it was because my grandfather and that family, one of the pillars and values of the home was do it slow. Remember, create good memories. And so I had actually a great self care. Routine modeled for me, but I rebelled against it because it wasn’t fast. It didn’t feel innovative or fun or adventurous.

and now that I’m 44, I’m like, Oh, she was really smart. So 

Tami: Emma was a straight up OJI hippie who was a way ahead of her time without paying cash money to be like, how can I get back to what you had growing up? 

Naomi: So, yeah. Yeah. And then she left, and moved to Africa to be a missionary. And she has been this, like all of us children watch her and we’re like, how does she create the boundaries?

Literally every day around. I don’t want to talk to people right now. And she’ll, she doesn’t, as a child that doesn’t feel great, but to look at it now, I’m like, Oh, she’s protecting her energy, in a way that is quite lovely. 

Tami: I’m. I’m stunned because when we started, when I said, ha we’re in gen X and then you’re like, wait a second.

No, I mean, I learned it all. And again, you rebelled against it. Do you think that you rebelled against it because it’s also super counter-cultural for having a slow life? 

Naomi: I do. I also think that, when we’re children, we think that’s what everyone does. Whatever that is, divorced kids of divorced families think everyone’s got a divorced family, and so I think I put all of the, my childhood into a box. And then when I started to realize, Oh, there’s other options, I craved something else. and then it just, it took the physical manifestation of it was to rebel against it and to kind of have a little fast life, replacement, but, Yeah, I think it is counter-culture.

And then who is it that deems that is that slow living is wrong. And I think that’s, that’s been a beautiful thing through quarantine for those that aren’t, I know there’s so much suffering that is attached to COVID and so I don’t want to minimize that, but, it has brought people back to the remembrance of what slowing down does for a body and does for a relationship and does for self.

Tami: Absolutely. And it’s one of the conversations that we’ve had in our house. Is that not much about our life changed in COVID? because. I am. My, one of my friends calls me a super hippie with a great haircut. She’s you don’t look like a hippie, but you’re a hell of a hippie. I was like, I know. and you can feel a bit like an outcast when you are not doing the soccer runs or the sporting teams or the, this or that.

But I’m gonna tell you what you want to come over and make some mud pies you want to build with some Lego. You want to be excited about your one hour of TV a day, come on over. I’ll make you some homemade granola and we can use some oat milk this, soak it in, and we’ll all feel better when we go to bed on time.

Naomi: Yeah. Well, good morning. 

Tami: We 

Naomi: were talking offline a little bit about this before, but, we spend so much time assuming things about others and. If we would just talk, stop a little bit longer and realize Oh, that person’s so lifestyle or that person’s waste lists choices or whatever. there’s some meaningful stuff that we can glean from each other.

if we would, again, slow down to realize how beautiful it is to go to bed on time or to let the sun wake us up in the morning. If we have that luxury, I don’t know. 

Tami: Yeah, well, and also I’m like, Oh, you could get a Dawn simulate, an alarm clock, and you can be woken up by the sun 365 days a year.

which I do that I do like to manipulate the light. However, again, I feel like the way that I’m living my life, is to give other people permission. Cause a lot of people feel like, but you have to do all the things I’m like. You really don’t 

Naomi: right. 

Tami: It seems like you have to cause people a lot of times you get pushback when you’re like, no, thank you.

Why don’t you want to do that thing? I don’t want to. 

Naomi: Yeah, well, and that’s a piece of it. We need to also normalize, not only normalize leaders, not knowing everything, but also normalizing no, as a complete sentence. No thanks. 

Tami: And usually it’s no, thank you. Okay. And nothing stops somebody in their tracks faster when you, when pushed back and they say, why not?

You’re like, but I don’t want to, and I don’t want to such a great answer. I feel like it’s the best answer, 

Naomi: but it really is 

Tami: because you’re like, well, I have visions of, so Rosie Molinari and Bernay Brown both talk about, being asked to do things for the bake sale. And Rosie tells a story about how she got asked to do something for a bake sale.

She’s I don’t even baking. I don’t even think it’s that, but she couldn’t figure out how to say no. So she said yes. And then she’s I baked some resentment right into those cupcakes. Can you imagine stirring resentment into your baked goods? I don’t want your resentment company. Can you just get cupcakes from the grocery store?

Sam’s resentment and sell those instead. They’ll go for a way higher price, 

Naomi: right? 

Tami: Right. 

Naomi: Well, I love it. 

Tami: Okay. So, so you had this hippie upbringing and then you rebelled against it. So how do you practice self-care now that you’re a grownup? 

Naomi: I think that I mix a combination of physical self-care, the really great mask that makes me feel my skin feel wonderful after drinking more water than.

then caffeine caffeinated things. I mixed that kind of stuff with just knowing that I need stillness and, the ways that I refuel, literally, it’s so simple that I guess I have to remind myself of this, how simple it is, sun on my face. And as often as the temperatures allow literally bare feet on the grass, And then music is my, probably my biggest self-care as an adult.

as loud as it can possibly be. jazz blues, anything that’s got a middle, a beginning, a middle and an end, in song I’m a huge fan 

Tami: of, I love that music is a big part of my self-care too. I am a like, I have super fan start-up or a super fan status for a band called the old 90 sevens.

They’re out of Dallas. I have loved them since 1997. I have get gotten on airplanes to see them. I am friends with other fans around the country. I’ve written fantasy set lists. I’ve asked them to come to my town. I’ve done all of those things and it gives me life. I love that. 

Naomi: Yeah, it’s good. 

Tami: It is good.

And I do also really enjoy a song with a beginning, a middle and an end, no jam BS for me. Thank you very much. I like a tidy song. where’s your self-care going well. And what could use some more attention? 

Naomi: The, where it’s going well is the removal of myself from the day. So the going upstairs at eight o’clock has been really good.

I think, I quit drinking in March. And what I’ve realized through that process of, no longer drinking is that there was so much attached to the habit. And so replacing. And habitually closing down at eight o’clock. I used to, when I grew up, and they spent some time with my grandmother, I was always enamored by the loading of the dishwasher and the whoosh sound of when the dishwasher would start and knowing that she did it then, so that she would wake up to a clean load of dishes in the morning that she would then put away and turning off all, but one light over the sink and washing the counter.

So I think I’ve realized. Now post-menopausal and with kids that are self-sustaining, that there is an art of self care that comes with closing down the house for the night for me. So that’s going really well. And it’s something I look forward to instead of my glass of wine that started at five now it’s Ooh, it’s almost eight o’clock.

I could shut down the house and go curl up in bed. what could use more attention, in the self care realm? I tend to. Put relationships last. so whether that’s, being intentional about my communication with my husband, and with my kids, I think needs some work, because I do derive great joy from my husband and my children and as a form of self care and, reminding myself to laugh and be joyful with them, I need to work on that.

Tami: I have to say as my long suffering spouse would attest me too. It’s okay, can we have a camera? can we have a whole conversation? I’m like, I guess 

Naomi: I know, I 

Tami: guess L and when you said the wound. I know you’re like, but it’s eight. O’clock I’m putting the house to bed and by the house, I mean, myself, the washer, the dishwasher created a very vivid picture in my mind because my husband, one of his put at the house to bed things is he turns the dishwasher on at night for the same reason.

And then, because he likes to be a little extra, love him. He sits down by the dishwasher and meditates to the sound of the dishwasher, whooshing. 

Naomi: I love that actually, 

Tami: it’s so fantastic. Right? It’s it’s already there. He keeps the lights out. It’s very, it’s kind of womb. Like it’s very bougie. I love that.

okay. So I also have, I jumped on the sober train about six years ago. it’s weird. I hardly ever talk about it and it’s because it was. Drinking. Wasn’t so much a problem for me. It was more of a, this isn’t hiding anything. I’m just going to subtract it and see what happens and what happens. And I was like, Oh shit, my anxiety went down.

Oh shit. My depression went down. Oh shit. My sleep got a lot better. All of these things. So a lot of people are sober, curious right now. Do you have. A ritual that you have replaced your 5:00 PM cocktail slash wine with, do you have some mock tails? what do you do in that department? 

Naomi: So I will be truthful here.

It wasn’t a, it wasn’t a glass of wine at 5:00 PM. It was the bottle opened at 5:00 PM. 

Tami: isn’t that how, I’m sorry. Isn’t that? How everyone drinks? Well, I think 

Naomi: what we have is a problem with women in society is that we kid ourselves and we’re like, well, I only have two glasses. 

Tami: and I think that’s, the glass is big enough, right?

Naomi: It’s only two. That is so true. And I think I want to also just kind of piggyback on what you said. Also, I have struggled with talking about it publicly because I don’t identify as an alcoholic. However, it was becoming too big of a priority in my life. it was just a habit that, like you said, it was extra.

And I was like, why am I adding this? So, when I first. Quit drinking. part of it was because I was an active recovery and was also managing a high level of payments because of my accident. And so the early days of sobriety were pretty simple because it was, I couldn’t do both, when I was in active physical therapy, recovery and learning to walk again.

And I also couldn’t do both once I. Came out of that phase, I was like, Oh, I really miss wine. So I did go through a, a time where I used there’s a brand called Seedlip, which has an amazing, Alcohol free spirit. There’s one that I really love that citrus space that was delightful as kind of at five o’clock.

And then Gruby is also a brand that has, alcohol free beer and, sparkling basically sparkling Rose, drink. So, just something to be able to pour into a glass and watch it bubble and feel like it was that cocktail. Now, though it is, all sparkling water and hot tea all day. As, and I don’t really have a five o’clock thing anymore.

The other thing that I will say that really helped me was, the book quit, like a woman like, Oh yeah, he would occur. and the reason I loved it is because it wasn’t about her sad story. It was science-based, it was, it correlated the habits and the emotional connection with drinking. And it was just, as an input person, the more I knew.

So the more I knew about how alcohol is impacting my body and my life, it gave me the tools to be able to say, yeah, no, thanks. It wasn’t easy though. I mean, I don’t want to be glib and cavalier and just be like, yeah, I just decided one day to stop drinking. it’s still an everyday choice. so. 

Tami: I love this.

Naomi: I don’t know if that was a wrap up with a bow, but 

Tami: no, I mean, I just feel like I, again, I want to normalize this idea of you don’t have to hit rock bottom to make changes and things don’t have to be so out of control to make changes, you can be like, I’m curious, what would my life be like if I took that part of my life out for a little bit and I always start my, My habit changes with the idea of I’m going to do this for a month or six weeks and see how it goes.

I’m going to collect data and see how it goes. And for me, there was just a really stark and by the way, not the first time I did this experiment, I’ve done this experiment on and off for varying degrees of time since I was 30. So I go back and forth between being a drinker and not being a drinker. The thing that I have found this time is it feels different because I’m 50 and ladies, our bodies change and how our bodies metabolite metabolize.

I think that’s the real word, metabolize alcohol changes over time. And so it felt different and it feels different every day that I don’t. It is not to say I’m never going to drink again. What I’m saying is I’m not drinking right now because it doesn’t fit into what else I want to do. I want to have the energy to write a book.

I want to have the energy to. get stronger and more flexible. I want to have the energy to be the parent. I want to be instead of the snappy bitch that I can be when I have booze in my system. And so again, it’s just being curious of, I wonder what my life would be like if I ran for office, what would my life be like if I replaced my booze for a month with some fancy tonic water or some non-alcoholic spirit, what would happen?

Naomi: The one, like 


Tami: ritual of stuff too. I just don’t think you have to use the original, the original thing. Like I don’t drink coffee. I think coffee is. Disgusting, but I like going to coffee with people cause I enjoy how they do the things and it’s all live, 

Naomi: Well, and it’s also all, a lot of this is big business.

Self care is big business, And so if we look at it from that frame of what else could I choose for me right now? Like I gave up wine, but I sure as hell did not give up sugar. so the replacement of taking wine out of my system made me realize how addicted I actually was to the sugar.

so like I’m looking at my little stash of almond joy and. Reese’s peanut butter cups next to me. so I’m not a purist. I’m not by not drinking. I’m not perfect. I’ve just, like you said, chosen to not have that be one Avenue or choice. Also that I’m not choosing to spend money on. Good Lord. Was I spending a lot of money on alcohol?

Tami: Right. And I know I was, I have recently started to, explore the world of legal cannabis, because it’s totally legal. Even for recreational use. I’m no longer a smoker of anything. Like I. By the way I used to smoke cigarettes and I know everyone’s Oh, that’s so gross. I know, but I’m one of those people it’s you don’t, we should all be able to do smoke, but we can’t.

So I’m kind of bummed about that. So, but I don’t smoke cannabis. I have however, dipped my toe into medicinal use of edibles and Oh my God. I will become the poster child for just a tiny bit of a gummy knocks me on my butt and lets me sleep during tumultuous times in the world, 

Naomi: which, we’ve just happened to be going through several iterations of that right now, 

Tami: all at the same time.

and I don’t have any residual, I don’t have any hangover like I do with booze. And so. I have a little bit of something to go to sleep and that I wake up and I’m like, yay team. I’m awake. And 

Naomi: I will also say the one thing that I’ve learned too in my sobriety experiment, because I think that like you, it’s also like I majoring in the future, I don’t know.

is that I have been able to challenge my judgment of other people. I noticed for a while, when I was in the active phase of becoming sober, that a lot of folks stopped talking to me about Their consumption or their choice or their new favorite wine. And I was like, please keep talking about it.

Like it’s not. That’s w we need to be able to normalize alcohol, whether it’s consumption or sobriety or the taste of it, or the love of a new drink, or, 

Tami: like I just confessed my love of cigarettes. So yeah. I’m with you. 

Naomi: Well, I have, I actually have, I’ll have to send you a photo. I have the best set of pearls that I bought for myself when I quit smoking.

So I’m a former cigarette smoker also, 

Tami: right? Like it’s a thing. No, and it’s funny. I also, I. I lost some social connection when I quit drinking also with some people. And I realized, Oh, I think I might’ve just did a lot of drinking with that person, but I also gained a lot of other relationships. And so it, it all worked out in the balance for me.

Yeah, but it was a little tricky at first and I did Holly’s book. so if you guys haven’t read, quit like a woman yet, please do there’s. There’s so many sober, curious books. If you are feeling that way, go ahead and dip your toe. Naomi, what is your morning routine? 

Naomi: It’s very slow, Tammy. I so my daughter is a freshman in high school and she has been back to school in person since the beginning of the.

20, 20, 21 school year. and so she gets up at about six. I hear her and wake up because of, household noise. I usually lay in bed. I use the insight timer for a few of my favorite morning meditations. I do some stretches, as part of my, at home, continuing physical therapy for my leg.

I’m not a makeup where, so my. Actual like getting ready routine, just consists of throwing on something and a great pair of earrings. I use a wonderful Rose oil from trader Joe’s for my face. And then I spend about 45 minutes with my daughter while I’m making coffee and unloading the dishwasher while she gets ready for school.

And then the next hour, once she leaves for school is mine. for either writing or reading or sitting, there’s a lot of mornings where I just sit in that chair in the corner of my office. 


because I feel like I have to have space. And I’m not a super woo person, but to kind of get the download for the day, what is it that I want to be, how do I want to show up?

What do I want to leave with people that I interact with? little sensory and I guess in some grounded-ness and then from nine o’clock on, it’s a shit show, but at least if didn’t have that hour. 

Tami: Absolutely. And what’s so funny is I did an episode. I’ll link to it, my morning routine and everyone’s Oh my God, I can’t wait to see what you do.

And I’m like, okay, it’s real boring. There is so much reflection. Good luck. Basically, I journal my morning away and then I meditate and then exercise and I eat. Yeah. There was like, But what about I’m like, there’s no big skincare routine. There’s no big shower. Do my hair. There’s none of that. But let me tell you, I have years of tracking my sleep.

I got years of tracking my mood years of what was my intention for that day. And how did it go? I love the word download because I feel like when I get quiet that’s when my, The best ideas I’m ever going to have come in those quiet 

Naomi: moments. I think about all of the retreats and the reason why we like hotels and like all of the things that like we think would be so wonderful.

We can replicate by just being still in, quiet in our own space. 

Tami: As somebody who used to lead retreats, co-sign all I did as a retreat leader was hold space for you to be quiet and feed you good food. But it is a very much the holding the space of and now we be quiet. Yeah, absolutely. So what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online?


Naomi: so I’ll go with the easy answer. First, the, where people can find me if you’re interested in learning more about the city council race, and even if you’re not anywhere close to Omaha, but want to follow along as I try to candidly be really authentic through this campaign. it’s Naomi for city council, either at.com on the website or in any social space.

It’s Naomi for city council. And then my personal website and then my personal, life is just add to Naomi hideaway. So Naomi, how do we.com or any of the social spaces? And it’s everyone always wants to call me Hathaway. It’s H a T w a Y. 


I think the other things that I would love for people to know about me are that, I show up messy all of the time.

and I think I would love for more people to consider that way of being in the world. I lead with love. I know that people say that love and kindness are kind of soft skills, but I think that they are necessary, for our leaders to have. And, I also am a huge proponent of leaving well. So if you’re in a space where you’re leaving something, whether it’s moving or a new relationship or a new job, look up the concept of leaving.

Well, it’s a way to really document and be intentional about, leaving one space and entering another. and if you want book suggestions, I have a ton. I’m an avid reader. Otherwise I don’t think there’s anything else. I want people to know about me. We’ve done a really good job of covering some basis.

Tami: Wait. So did you say leaving L E a V I N G. Well, 

Naomi: leaving. Well, 

Tami: Oh, I’m going to get my Google fingers on, but can you give everyone cause I’m like, I have questions. So the one question I have on that is what does that mean? 

Naomi: So it was actually a phrase that was termed by a friend of mine. Whose name is Jerry Jones.

He is in the intercultural space of, living abroad and he had talked about it early on from a way to leave one overseas assignment to go to another one. And I borrowed it. Like all of the best ideas are borrowed, right. I borrowed it and implemented it into my real estate practice. So I really believe strongly that families by no fault of their own, forget about kiddos when they’re moving and the kids are the last ones to.

be provided support. And so I helped my clients understand how to help their kids leave well. So that means like neighborhood walks, in your old neighborhood, go to places that you love to take photographs at your favorite bench in the park. Go have one last ice cream, for people that are homeowners, if you’re selling right.

A little note of goodbye to the house in the inside closet of your kiddos room, If you can better assimilate into a new environment, if you’ve properly said goodbye to the old one, Oh God. 

Tami: As it’s gone, this is ringing my bell right now. Ooh, I think I have some things. This is a good idea 

Naomi: and think about it too.

so I am working with my team right now on some of this leaving. Well, they don’t know it yet, but it’s an act of, subtle suggestion. So if I know that a contract’s coming to an end, or I know that, people are going to have to say goodbye, starting to identify the lessons you’ve learned and just being grateful to each other saying, thank you for teaching me this.

realizing the things that you didn’t have time to do yet. that’s even a way to lead well is Ooh, when I started this job, I wanted to. Have this as a success measure and I didn’t get there. And then being able to like close that loop helps with the next job. It helps in relationships. all sorts of, it’s just, it’s such a great concept, to live like with, 

Tami: I absolutely love it.

Thank you for that. And it’s reminding me, I’m doing a workshop at the end of the year. I haven’t decided on the name yet, but it’s going to be something like. make 20, 21 your best year ever. But the first third of the workshop is going to be about hugging 2020 and saying I’m so glad we got to spend so much time together.

whew. Let me look at all the great things that happened. Let me look at all the, not so great things that happen, but to like really make peace with 2020 before we go into 2021. Yep. 

Naomi: So you could leave. Well, you could have your folks leave. Well, 20, 20. 

Tami: Oh my God. Well, I might be stealing that just to be, I might be like leave 20, 20 well, and people are like, okay.

Crazy bird. I need to get out of here. I’m like, well, but you have to make peace with what came before you can really embody what comes before you. 

Naomi: Yeah, absolutely. 

Tami: Okay. Naomi, are you ready for the quickfire questions that never end up being cool WIC? Yes. Cool. Because I like to talk apparently, Naomi Hattaway, what is your Enneagram?

Naomi: I am a very classic eight wings. Seven. 

Tami: Yeah. I am so excited because last year when Holly and I did our Enneagram series, I was convinced that I didn’t like eights. And here’s some news flashing people. I, some of my favorite people I have connected with in 2020 are healthy eights. Oh, my goodness. A healthy eight is a person I want to sit by because they have all the good ideas.

I’m like, Oh, let’s do this together. Natural leaders. Amazing folks. Okay. Naomi, are you an introvert or an extrovert? 

Naomi: So, my Myers-Brigg is an E N F J, which means that I. Present is extroverted, but if we talk about the way that we recharge, I think I’m a hundred percent introverted. so I think it depends on your definition of extrovert versus introvert.

I love people and I can get up on a stage and talk. And I don’t ha I don’t show fear. I think we often think of extroverted people as the bubbly, outgoing people. So I would lean that way, but. If you’re looking at the recharging definition of it, how do you fuel? It’s not from people it’s from stillness and quiet.

Tami: Okay. Well, I will just tell you, I am an I N F J O. Everybody is you’re not an introvert. I’m like, girl, I stopped listening to you five minutes ago. You don’t see those close signs on my eyelids. And again, I present very forward. Very confident, again, speaking as not an issue, what I’m not interested in.

Is boring. Chit-chat yup. I’m going to ask you some shit and we are going to go deep and we’re going to go fast and we’re probably going to hug and then I’m going to go home cause I’m going to need a break. 

Naomi: Absolutely. Yup. 

Tami: Okay. All right. On the Gretchen Rubin for tenancies, are you a questioner, an upholder, an obliger, or a rebel?

Naomi: I’m a rebel. 

Tami: I love rebels cause I’m a questioner, but I totally lean all middle fingers towards the level. 

Naomi: it’s interesting though. Are you familiar with the disc? it’s decider. Oh, no, I can’t remember what they all are caring. We S as the steady eye is, I can remember 

Tami: that. I think it’s going to have to be a 20, 21 goal for me.

A couple people have mentioned it. I’m like, Ooh, there’s framework. I don’t know. But the reason I bring it up is 

Naomi: because there’s a natural state and a learned state with disc. And my natural state is very high D which is the driven decider. That’s why I’m a rebel. That’s why I’m an eight. And I think that then what the beauty of disc is it lets you also have an adapted and in the adapted version, I’ve learned how to soften some of that soften the rebel soften the decider soften the eight.

And I think that, from an Enneagram perspective, that’s where the health comes in of realizing where to bring out certain things. So anyway, that might be something fun for you to, 

Tami: influence I’ll explore 20, 21. And the reason I also giggle at that is my natural inclination is once people say you have to blah, blah, blah.

I’m like, Oh, that is hilarious. I don’t have to do shit. However, Should you convince me, this is a great idea. I have ways to improve it because I’m a one, right? So, but it’s funny. I thought I was an eight for a while and then my therapist fell off her chair and was like, girl, you’ve been telling me your secrets for 20 years.

You’re a one 

Naomi: hysterical. 

Tami: I was like, okay. But anyway, I love rebels because man. They get shit done. 

Naomi: We do see that goes back to that thing though, about sitting on my hands. Like I’ve had to learn to not always be the rebel eight, 

Tami: right? No, absolutely. But there’s also this story that rebels tell themselves, they’re like, ah, you can’t make me do anything and neither can I, and I’m like, that is also true.

And the other side of that is just the, but once you decide. You don’t need anyone to hold you accountable because you’re too busy wearing the crown, you’re doing the thing we’re in the crown man, duh. I said I was going to do it now. I’m doing it. Yep. Okay. Love language. What’d you got. so love 

Naomi: language.

I’m joking with you right now, but my love language right now is people policy. 

Tami: I will say I’m here for it. 

Naomi: I kid, but I do want a t-shirt that says that, my love language is acts of service a hundred percent all the way. 

Tami: Love it. That’s my secondary, what we should get as well, because I actually posted on Instagram recently that my love language is people who vote.

And, that’s true. So I’ll send you a gold star because my true love language is, words of affirmation. 

Naomi: Okay. 

Tami: Okay. My second is acts of service. I call it getting shit done and gold stars, but you know, What Chapman has his way of talking to you? 

Naomi: Yes, he does. my husband is a gift person, which I don’t like.

I love getting a book in the mail. I love getting like. A quote, that’s a magnet, like I love that kind of thing, but he is the King of gift giving and I’m like, thank you for that. it’s gifts is way on the bottom. 

Tami: I, me too, when my husband and I, he okay. A, I bought him this book for his birthday one year and he’s Okay.

Your role, what do you seven? You want to read this book? And I was like true, but I think it’ll help both of us. So we’ll both read it. He’s just tell me if there’s a quiz, so he’s never read it. But what we did do is when we both found out that our top two, gold stars and getting shit done, we stopped buying presence.

Naomi: So nice. 

Tami: And we’re like, Oh, thank God the pressure’s off. And when I want a present, I’m like, Hey, this is a present giving thing. Let me send you a list. And he says, thank you all happy. Right. I love it. Yeah. It’s we’re just real honest with, I it’s so funny. I have a torture relationship with the book because it gets real Jesus.

See at the end and I’m like, dammit. Gary knock it off because I do find that framework to be very helpful. 

Naomi: There’s a great as your daughter gets older, there’s a five language, five love languages for teens, and a workbook that I would highly recommend. 

Tami: Well, I already read the five love languages for children and, unbeknownst to her had been testing them out.

That girl is a quality time with, Gold stars attached and she knows that she can get us by doing stuff. So we’re, I play board games with my child four times a day. When she actually goes to school, I play board games with my child three times a day. That what I’m telling you, not much about our life has changed except the location of school, but she’s we’ve already played, sorry, and UNO.

And it’s 10 42 in the morning. 

Naomi: Oh, that’s a lot of day left. 

Tami: Exactly. We will be playing more for sure. Okay. Now we’re to the real reason I have a podcast is to get everyone’s book list. 

Naomi: What 

Tami: is your favorite last most recent 

Naomi: book?

The most recent favorite. Last is the address book by Dierdra mask. it is all about street addresses and what they reveal about race, wealth and power. 

Tami: Oh my God. Well 

Naomi: guess who’s going to be 

Tami: getting that book. See, this is why I do this because I’ve never heard of it. And I can’t wait to read it. 

Naomi: the other one though, that is a very close second for the most favorite recent is me a bird songs.

how we show up, I think is the title. Okay. Someone. So I can’t reference it, but I’m pretty sure it’s how we show up. And it’s by me, a bird song and it’s beautiful. 

Tami: Okay, well, I’m literally writing it down cause I’m going to go to my library app and add these to my list. What is your favorite book of all time and feel free to give me several, because this is the choose amongst your darlings.

Please don’t make me choose. 

Naomi: Yes. okay. So from a being a boss standpoint, radical candor. 

Tami: Oh my God. I love that book so much. 

Naomi: so do I, From a pondering self care liturgical, not in the religious sense way. Parker Palmer on the brink of everything is like the poor book is so highlighted and underlined.

It’s not even funny. from a political standpoint, Amanda, Litman’s run for something book. It’s literally like real talk guide and that’s what the tagline is. And it’s so true. and then I have to give a shout out to Resmah comes my grandmother’s hands. I have never read a book that was so helpful in terms of learning about oppression and trauma to a body.

It’s a little sematic. It’s a little anti-racism, but what he does masterfully is brings together the white. Historical lived experience in a body from Europe. the black lived experience trauma from Africa and the police body trauma from being forced into law enforcement. It’s just brilliant. and I think the thing that I resonate most with him about is that he asks people when they’re reading it to take a pause, like every couple of chapters, he’s okay, put the book down.

Here’s some lessons I want you to like, Permanently sit in and live with and then bring the book back. so that’s, it’s a tough book, but it is amazing. The other thing that I think I would say is that I love any book where the author is available to their readers and resume is one of those 

Tami: available to their readers.

In what way? 

Naomi: on social media, like on Instagram, I connected with him and this is a great story. I connected with him, told him I was reading the book from the library and realized I’m going to have to buy the book because he wants us to like, sit with it. and he was so great. He’s give me your address.

I’ll send you one. That’s okay. but he said, I just asked that you come back and continue this conversation with me about how the book has sat with you. So that’s what I mean, like he is, he’s just available for folks that are willing to put in the work of learning. 

Tami: I’m just going to tell you people, if you are listening to this and you’re wondering how to connect and make people true fans of your work, that’s it?

Yep. What I said earlier about the old 90 sevens, they came to my town as a suggestion because I wrote them a letter. At 40 years old and was like, you should come to Sacramento, you should play at this club. They did. And then when they came, I wrote my fantasy set list, sent it on social media and then they played it.

Naomi: That’s amazing. 

Tami: And shouted me out from the stage. And I was like, I have died in this club, a million deaths because of this. Yes, 

Naomi: I have another favorite. 

Tami: Yes. 

Naomi: Zombie loyalists by Peter Shankman. And the reason I just brought that up is because what you just expressed was that band was creating a zombie loyalist in you through the way that they worked and interacted with you.

You will always shout them out and you will tell everyone about them. And so while they’re sleeping, You’re doing the work of marketing for them. So for anyone who’s listening to this, it’s brilliant. 

Tami: I mean, it’s so funny. Just the other day, rat, the singer was reading poetry on to shout out a poet and he was reading poetry and somebody, I didn’t see it cause I don’t follow the poet and somebody tagged me.

I was like, This is the best bang ever. Like I am like one of those fantasies after a show. And you’re driving home from San Francisco in the middle of the night with your friends. You’re like, what scenario should we put our favorite singer in? That would be like the most pleasure. Well, and the number one thing was let’s have Rett reading us stories from a book.

Naomi: I love it, but that’s where it really, it becomes personal and it becomes engaging and think of. Now  think of all of our elected officials behaved that way. 

Tami: exactly. PS. That’s why I love Twitter because most people don’t hand their Twitter off to social media managers. A lot of people handle their own Twitter.

Pro tip get on Twitter. I know people are like, I hate Twitter. I’m like that’s for all the kids. I don’t know if I’m qualified to hang out are so I like to hang out there and be like, hi, I don’t have much to say, but I’m here to learn. 

Naomi: Well, but the thing about Twitter though, like we were talking about being able to say no, thank you like that.

That resonates with social media too. You can just say no, thank you to a conversation and no, thank you to engaging with stuff that makes you feel icky or uncomfortable, that’s true. 

Tami: So, okay, so that does lead me to two questions. One, what is your favorite personal development book followed of course by what’s your favorite social media channel?

Naomi: Oh goodness. So I thought that the, self development book was going to be the easiest one to answer. When we talked about this earlier, I want to give a shout out to Alex ELLs after the rain. it is a newly published. I don’t think that she would call it a self development book, but it is a self-awareness tool to help guide you through some really cool self personal development stuff.


Tami: it. And was that a, is that a 20, 20 bucks? 

Naomi: Yeah, she crowdfunded it and now it’s out. and her last name is E L E and she’s also exquisitely producing some meditations and, she’s just a cool cat. 

Tami: Love it. All right. So what is your favorite media? Social media channel. Instagram. Okay. And are you a grid person or are you a story’s reels person?

Like what’s your jam? 

Naomi: So I have a really cool grid on my city council site that I’m really struggling with because I don’t want to mess it up, but I know I have to get more engaged on the grid. I am a stories person though, hands down. I do love though, the grid to be able to storytell. And put my writing out there.

Cindy Spiegel, who runs the CRA the community that we keep referring to deer growing 

Tami: up. Grown-ass women, ladies, dear grown-ass woman, you should join 

Naomi: it where it’s at. Cindy does a really good job of using her Instagram profile posts for storytelling. and I do love that, but I just really love stories.

Tami: I know Cindy is a master at many things and using social is one of them, for sure. Absolutely love her. what is your favorite TV show? Oh, different things. You gotta get different things for different, Twitter for learning Twitter for laughing, because one of my favorite things is. Not being the smartest kid in the room.

It makes me nervous when I’m the smartest person in the room. I’m like, you guys, we got we’re up shit Creek, because I feel like if I have to be in charge, we’re not going to get very far. So when I go on Twitter, I’m always like, there’s a hundred million people here who are way smarter than me.

Thank goodness. I know where they all are and I can visit. so I do love, I’d love Twitter for that. And I like the direct access to people that you can get through Twitter that I can’t seem to find anywhere else. I love Instagram for connecting to people and here’s how I love a story. And I am always the person.

If you ask a question in an Instagram story, I will be answering it because. It’s lonely. When you ask a question, no one answers it. And I never want someone to feel like they are like, Oh man, no one likes me here. This is dumb. So I’m always like my favorite color is blue. I’m glad you asked that. What is your favorite color?

So I think it’s such a great way to get into people’s lives. I feel like Instagram is the place. When I meet somebody, I immediately follow them Instagram. And I do some immediate engagement. I like to engage people who follow me. I like to engage people, on their page, on my page. I just like the engagement, but you have, do you have to be, you can’t be a passive.

consumer of Instagram, 

Naomi: no, it won’t work for you that 

Tami: it doesn’t work that way. Like it is a, it’s a thing we have to be social. And then Facebook, I think is stupid and I’m only there because lots of people are there. and I would rather not be, but I feel like I have to be. So what’s funny is I’ve been using my personal Instagram to irritate the shit out of people by just.

I, my personal campaign has to be, when I feel anxious about the election, I give a small donation in hopes to flip the Senate, and then I go on Instagram and I use a very obnoxious all heart. I emoji of myself that says flipping the Senate is on my mind. Mike X Mike SB and Mississippi got a donation from me today.

And I have a list of 15 candidates that I just run through the list. I’m like Raphael Warnock in Georgia got a donation from me. Jamie, Harrison’s going to be getting everyone’s Christmas gift. Cause I hate Lindsay Graham. Oh, did you say Theresa Greenfield in Iowa? Cause you can’t stand Joni Ernst. That’s what I said, everyone flipping the Senate’s on my mind.

So. The nice thing about that is I know I’m irritating some people, which I’m like cool, because after the election, if you haven’t posted about the election, we’re no longer friends on Facebook. So I’m using it as a weeding out tool. And lots of people on Facebook have been like, Oh my God, I’m going to give donations to 

Naomi: peer politics, political 

Tami: persuasion.

Yeah. and it makes me laugh every time I do it. So it eases my anxiety. It, I’m engaging others. I’m normalizing that process. Like so many people are like, I’m going to go broke doing this. I’m like, well, I’m only giving $5 at a time and they’re like, I am too. And I was like, cool. I was like, I really am taking it out of my holiday.

Present buying, go back to earlier gifts. Aren’t my love language. Apparently flipping the Senate is my love language. And so I’m using my Facebook for that right now. I love it. Yeah. what’s your favorite TV show? 

Naomi: I am a fan of anything that Ava DuVernay puts out. and I love that this is a series.

Tami: Okay. My fun fact, my husband’s best friend from high school was on this as well. Oh, 

Naomi: I love that. 

Tami: Yeah. And he did not look like that in high school. I’ll just 

Naomi: say, 

Tami: it’s so funny. I saw him at a wedding many years after high school and was like, who’s the hot guy that’s here. I’m like 

Naomi: what? 

Tami: That guy did look like that in high school.

cause I love that people can become legit movie stars. And that was never the person you think it’s going to be from high school. Right. Anyway. Okay. This is my favorite question because it always is the question that gets me an explicit rating on every single episode. So I never have to wonder if I have to check the box and it is directly from inside the actors studio, Naomi Haddaway.

What is your favorite swear word? 

Naomi: My favorite swear word is a combination of three words and it is for fuck’s sake. 

Tami: FFS. Yes. I love that. Yes. I think you’re the one first cause everybody loves. Yeah, well everybody, no, not for fuck. I mean, literally, almost everyone says fuck. And they have, and they always say it with a laugh with Gusto.

but nobody has said for fuck’s sake yet. And I have to say. I love it. That is a, it is a well-used phrase. 

Naomi: It’s bless your heart. You never really know why someone or how someone is using it. and you’re like, Oh, is she mad? Or is she like pleasantly annoyed? Or is she really piss off? 

Tami: I love that as a California native, nobody ever says, bless your 

Naomi: heart.

I’m married to a Southern boy, so, okay. 

Tami: Right. And I think that w West coasters, when they hear that, they’re like, 

Naomi: Huh? Well, I think it’s a term of endearment and then those that don’t know that they’ve just said, Oh, you’re an idiot. 

Tami: Right? They’re like, here, let me translate your West coast thoughts to what it actually means.

And then you’re like, damn. 

Naomi: Yeah. 

Tami: Damn, that’s a good one. Have you 

Naomi: really amazing person, that you would absolutely love speaking of Southern and Georgia and bless your hearts? she is running for Senate and I’m going to look her up really fast while I talk and fill this space. because her, Twitter speed is everything.

Tami: Wait, so is she running for the Georgia house? The state Senate 

Naomi: she is running for. It says Georgia house. Yes. District 67. Her name is Angela Mayfield and her Twitter handle is pink rock to pus. This is for tagline, Georgia sass machine Southern is all get out. Y’all means all. I was born to bake biscuits and build a better Georgia.

And I’m a lot of flour. Ah, 

Tami: okay. So pink. What sass pink. 

Naomi: Rock. And then the last part of octopus. So it’s like P rock tapas, T O P U S. 

Tami: All right. Well guess what? She just got to follow. 

Naomi: She’s amazing. 

Tami: I have to say I am so thrilled to connect with women. Hell maybe I’ll ask her to be on my podcast. I’m so thrilled to connect with women who are seeing.

Holes seeing problems, seeing issues and are like, you know what? I think I might actually be part of the solution. I’d like to give it a shot. so thank you for, letting me into your life and thank you for connecting with me and thank you for coming here and, letting me get to know you better. Hey everyone.

Go. Do the things where we do the follows and continue these conversations on social, you can find both of us on Instagram and as always, you can go to the show notes for this show at www.tamihackbarth.com/episode 71. And we will talk to you soon and remember that you matter too.