EP 068: Storytelling with Haley Everheart

EP 068: Storytelling with Haley Everheart

This week’s episode is all about storytelling and using video to tell those stories effectively with Haley Everheart.

I interviewed Haley, a queer femme CEO, content creator, and creative strategist based in Oakland, California this summer. She has been using the internet and digital storytelling tools to build community and create social change for more than 15 years. Haley’s company Everheart Creative helps small businesses and mission-driven progressive nonprofit organizations get their messages out into the world.

We talk about getting more comfortable on video, talking to the camera and sitting in the discomfort of being new at something. We talk about angles, lighting and wardrobe and how thankful we are that there are people who can help with all of it.

Haley is a mama who loves to tend to her garden, finding gratitude and joy in creating and sharing home work with partners and kids and has integrated self-care into all aspects of her daily work and home life.

We talk about working during our prime energy zone and the joy of research and a spreadsheet.


Tami: Good morning, Hailey. Good 

Hayley: morning. 

Tami: I’m so happy to have you here on the podcast friends. Haley’s a powerhouse. So I want to hear all about what she does. So let’s start here. Haley, who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Hayley: Well, thanks for having me. I am a professional storyteller. So what that means is I, craft stories and I help other people craft 

Tami: stories.

Hayley: And I realized about 10 years ago that I. You live in this day and age, which I do. and you want to tell stories that it’s best to at least learn how to use video. and so I became a filmmaker. So now I create videos for all sorts of clients, primarily mission driven companies and progressive nonprofits and organizations.

And I also help, movement folks, organizers, small business owners, et cetera, up there, DIY content game. 

Tami: I have to say. About a decade ago, I was doing a training. I was doing a training at a yoga teacher training. I have, I’m a yoga teacher and I was on the staff do. And one of the people said, Oh my God, you’re so funny.

You should do video. And I record in absolute horror. I was like, Oh my God, what are you talking about? He’s I think you’re like the next Renee Brown, which by the way, I have to bring up Renee Brown in every episode. So I just like to drop that there really fast. And I was like, she’s so fantastic.

That’s You just gave me the compliment of the highest order and Oh my God, I can’t think of anything I want to do less than be on video times have changed my friend. So I know a bunch of people just got super sweaty in their armpits. Can you, this is a, I did not prep this question, but can you tell us a little bit, like how do people become more comfortable getting on video?

For their business or for their life or for whatever message they’re sending. How do you help with people doing that part or you just do the video production part? 

Hayley: All of it. And I think that’s a great question. And I will say that growing up, I was a theater kid. I was in performance. And for a long time, I thought I only want to be in front of the camera.

I come from a long line of storytellers. My parents are also filmmakers and I said, I never want to be behind the camera. That’s boring. You know, I would want to be on camera. And then I grew up. And I realized that the person in front of the camera generally has the least power and that you have the most power when you’re behind in the camera.

And then I thought, Oh no, I want to be behind that camera. That being said, that has really changed in this current moment because. We can be both in front of the camera and in control of our own content, because most of us now have high definition, video cameras in our pockets, which is incredible. And I think video is such a powerful way to communicate with your audience no matter who you’re trying to serve, or, you know, what you’re trying to offer or sell.

And I think the biggest thing in being comfortable is just doing it. You know, 

Tami: just 

Hayley: trying it like the first time I, you know, I made my career, I was behind the camera and then my sister kept saying, you’ve got to do a YouTube series. You’ve gotta do a YouTube series. And I was like, I’m too old.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. and I don’t need to be on camera. And I like the first time I sat down to record the first, like 15 minutes of me recording were just me being like. I 

Tami: feel 

Hayley: really. Awkward. Okay. I feel awkward. Still be a little awkward talking to myself like, you know, so I think embracing the feeling of awkwardness and I have always been a firm believer that if something scares you, that’s like a good direction to go in, because it means that there’s like steaks there.

It means that there’s something important. and that means it’s interesting and worth. Doing, you know, so I think it’s like most things it’s not about Feeling totally comfortable. And it’s not about not being scared. It’s about just doing it anyway. And just sitting with your own discomfort and being like, I’m not going to wait until I feel comfortable.

I’m not going to wait until I feel fearless. Like that moment is never going to come. Like I’m going to feel weird. I’m going to be sort of embarrassed. I’m going to worry that no one cares about what I have to say and I’m going to do it anyway. 

Tami: And I have felt all of those, both video and starting a podcast.

I wanted to start a podcast. I don’t know, eight years ago I paused because I was like, but I don’t know the technology. And I now know that was a line of bullshit because, I can hire somebody to do the test. And then once I hired somebody to do the tech part, then I was like, Oh shit, I have a cork in my throat.

I can’t talk. And then I did this whole rigmarole and I actually worked with a coach. I call her my word excavator. I said, please ask me what I think about these things. And she’s I’ve heard you talk about these things for years. Of course you have something to say on the topic, but I was like, no, I need you to ask me and then can you write it down?

I’m going to cut up vegetables. Like I have to sneak up on myself to get my words out. So one of the things that super helped me was realizing that there is a, there’s a coach and a teacher for everything. So if you don’t like how you look on video, Work with somebody on your style, work with somebody on your angles, work with somebody on your lighting, work with experiment, go to YouTube.

I mean, talk about new to YouTube and buy new to YouTube. I mean, I didn’t realize like there was a video for everything, but there’s like how to, there’s a woman she’s like in her fifties and she’s I will teach older women how to look good on video. These are the things you need to look for.

And I was like, what a gift? You are person. I can’t remember your name, but it was like, wow, lighting super matters and angles super matter. Cause I’m telling you, we both like really good. We’re doing this on zoom. We can see each other’s faces, but I know you can’t see us, but we both look really good on zoom right now, but I also have a setup.

Like my camera is always lifted up. Like I noticed the background I got my face is in a window right now. And later this afternoon, I’ll sit on the other side of my desk. Cause the sun will be over here. Like it’s a thing, but boy, am I glad there are teachers and people who are professionals that are like, you can totally do this and you can look good and you can get your message out, but you might not do it by yourself.

How do you tell me about the people who you help tell their stories with their faces in their words? So how did, how do you work with people? So 

Hayley: I love everything you just said, and I think it’s all so true. and I think one of the things I think a lot about is that the tools have really been democratized, but not the skills as much.

Exactly what you’re saying. Like we might have access to the equipment and the editing, but we still might not know how to do it or how to do it well, but. Are so many good teachers out there. and when I work with clients, if I’m doing, you know, full service, video production, I mean, first of all, I approach every relationship.

Like I approach every relationship, I think, to a degree like there’s that period of mutual attraction, you know, whether that comes from a referral or someone coming to my website or me hearing about their project or event and us sort of taking a minute to get to know each other, What are you about?

Where’s the resonance, where’s the alignment and feeling into what that relationship might be, what each of our needs are, you know, in the relationship like, okay, you know, this might be as basic as like this company needs this mission video or, Oh, this nonprofit has. Fundraising event and they need to, you know, raise a lot of money and how can I help them tell their story and really thinking about, you know, what are the needs?

And is there that sort of like mutual alignment that we feel like we can work together in a great way. And then I really spend a lot of time getting to no, my clients. story and their needs, you know, let’s hear about you, who are you speaking to? Who is your audience? You know, if you’re selling something like what happens when people buy?

what happens when people don’t buy? what’s going on? They’re like, these are the things that I want to address and the stories that we’re telling for you, you know, who, what lights you up, you know, and how can we take I’m often working with Big thinkers and visionaries. And like, how can we take this big mission that you have and distill it down into something that’s going to be 90 seconds or three minutes, and is going to resonate with your key audience and also people who are maybe newer to you.

So like how can we be communicating on these multiple levels, to be really strategic and then, you know, moving into the filming. Now it’s a lot of virtual filming. Before it was in person, but it’s sort of the same. It’s like doing interviews, making people like a huge part of my job is just making people feel comfortable on camera.

Like it’s funny. It would 

Tami: be a huge part of my job is just making people feel comfortable. 

Hayley: And, you know, I really, identify with like my caretaking and my femininity in that way. I enjoy the emotional labor of my business. I mean, I want to get paid for it, so get me wrong. But but I love it.

I really delight in that feeling of being able to sit with someone and I think. As you well know, I don’t have to tell you this in your job, but like listening to someone else is such a gift. Like being able to be present with someone else’s experience and everyone that I believe that at least everyone is like more interesting.

The more you get to know them, like there’s no one that I can’t like connect with and just deepen and learn about. And so being able to have that experience of like deeply listening to people and then. Sort of, I see my work as responding to the information they’re giving me. So like taking the core points and then showing it back to them in a way that shines a spotlight and really lights them up.

So they get to see it. And they kind of the experiences like, Oh my gosh, like 

Tami: I am, or we 

Hayley: are doing this amazing work in the world. and now we get to do more of it. that’s kind of the experience that I really see like happening, you know, with my clients. 

Tami: I’m gonna have to book a consult cause I’m sold.

I’m like, yes, I would like that. So cool. So we just do a little business here, guys. You’re welcome. But I’m telling you, I met Hayley in a court, in a coaching program that we’re both participants in and I was like, I want to sit by her she’s effervescent. And she does a thing that I don’t know how to do.

And she’s delightful. So I need to get to know her better. So you’re welcome. So now all of my listeners are going to be like, what you can do video who’s this angel straight from heaven that can make this thing that I think is impossible possible. 

Hayley: Yeah. 

Tami: Right. Okay. So if you don’t yet follow Haley on social media, you should.

So Hailey. Where can people find you on Instagram specifically? Because I watch your stories and I’m like, girl, shut up. I want to come over. I’m gonna invite myself over to your house for some delicious food and some conversation. So tell us first where we can find your stories. And then let’s talk about self care, because that was another thing as I started following you on social media.

And I was like, somebody got the self care deck. D dialed, like she’s got it all. So I want to know more about it, but where can people find you? So they can be like, Oh, this is how you live that self care business. So where are you on Instagram? 

Hayley: So you can find me on Instagram at queer underscore mamma.

That’s my personal page and where I do most of my Grammy. You can also find my video production business at Everhart creative, and that’s ever hurt like your heart muscle, H E a R T creative. so you can find me there and that’s Instagram is where I’m most active these days. 

Tami: Cool. Okay. So how does self care.

And we were laughing before we started recording about how self care isn’t bass and manicures and all that stuff. But we both like those things. So how does self care affect your work in your business and in the world? 

Hayley: So I feel like I’ve gotten to a place, you know, in this, I don’t think was always true, but self care is such an integrated part of my life.

Now, like when I was reflecting on your questions before our conversation, thinking about what I wanted to say, I was like, Oh, I feel like. Every element of my life is self care. Like my work is self care. Like I get so much energy from working with clients. Like I am the lit up. Like I like when I have these long days, like I feel lit up by it.

I feel so deeply. I feel so deeply in alignment with my own life. And that’s something that I really worked for, you know, and I think. Yeah. So self care has become so integrated. Like it’s in my work, it’s in my love relationship, it’s in my parenting. And then of course I also have the things that, you know, aren’t necessarily as you know, productive.

but also bring me a lot of joy, like my garden and like writing and maintaining my relationships with my family and friends and you know, some of those other practices, but it, yeah, it really. It’s all a part of the ecosystem for me now. 

Tami: Oh, I love that idea of it. Self care, being an ecosystem.

And I agree it’s taken me like a really long time to integrate self care into every aspect of my work and my parenting and relationship and just how I live my 24 hours every day that I’m like what part of my life? Isn’t self care. Right. Like sometimes self care is, is having uncomfortable conversations.

I’ve been having a lot of uncomfortable conversations lately and I’m like, woo. But boy, like I am tired. I feel like I have an uncomfortable conversation hangover. And yet the discomfort of carrying that with me. Would permeate every part of my life that I’m like, Nope, I’d rather have the temporary discomfort of having that uncomfortable conversation.

And this is coming from somebody who has been notoriously, conflict avoidant. Like I feel like girl, you are having some growth in this regard, but it is so integrated now that I’m like, I can’t not say something. Yeah. That’s a little bit of self care. Okay. Again, I watch you on your stories. I’m like, who, what kind of magical family did you grow up in?

So I’m going to ask you about your growing up. So what did you learn about self care growing up? And I think you’re a millennial, correct. Okay. So I think so I’m gen X. And so there has been a shift, but I’m curious to see how self care was talked about in your family and in your generation. 

Hayley: So I think I got some conflicting messages growing up, like many of us.

I definitely got the counter example of the martyred working. Mother who was, you know, always doing too much for everyone and always burned out and resentful, you know, in a lot of ways. and I really saw that as a path that I did not want to follow 

Tami: me too. 

Hayley: I was like, 

Tami: I know I was like, no, thank you.

I’m good.

Hayley: Yeah. But then I also had a home where there was a lot of joy and connection with each other and you know, my parents are both really into gardening and they’re really into cooking and like being. Wait with friends. And so I saw some of these like sort of homemaking kind of elements, be a part of self care too.

You know, like my dad cooking 

Tami: done in community in, in partnership, self care or homemaking activities can be, but when it’s one person doing everything, that’s where it’s like, Ooh, that doesn’t look like fun, but it being split. 

Hayley: Yep. But you know, I think a lot of my. My lessons were more like, Oh, I don’t know like how to avoid that, but that is not going to work for me because it just doesn’t seem good for anyone.

Tami: Did you grow up in the Bay area? I 

Hayley: grew up on the East coast, actually. I grew up in DC. 

Tami: Oh, interesting. 

Hayley: What brought you to the Bay area? Well, I went to school in North Carolina college in North Carolina, and I loved it there, but I realized that I wanted to move to a big city for a while. I wanted to move to a big city with a lot of queer people where the weather was pretty decent, where I didn’t have to drive a lot.

These are like three main criteria 

Tami: check. 

Hayley: And then I was like, all right, the Bay areas, he was reasonable. and then I got here and I was like, Oh, yeah, this is home. I’m never leaving. Like I just, I feel like totally at home here. 

Tami: It’s funny. I actually grew up in the Bay area, spent a brief time in DC and was like, Are you high?

Like I could not have gotten home fast enough. And then I did a little stint in Portland and was like, yeah, if you guys could fix the light issue here, it’s too dark. And I drink too much. Like I’m super depressed. I got to go back home. 

Hayley: Like I need sunshine. I 

Tami: need sunshine. I, it turns out I’m a sunflower.

and, I’m in Sacramento, I feel like I’m just Bay area adjacent. 

Hayley: People from the East coast, asked me what I love about the bear and why. I know I’m never going back to DC. The thing I like to say is that In the Bay area, people are so like unabashedly weird and they’re just like doing their thing, like hard, like whatever it is.

And there’s just like an antique uniformity element here that just really works for me. 

Tami: One of the things. So I grew up in Richmond and I did a lot of time in Berkeley and Oakland, like with friends and work. And my mom worked in Oakland and Berkeley, and I remember being a teenager. And I was a nanny and I would drive around Berkeley and then you’d do whatever.

And I remember seeing women who were like perfectly suited up in you know, they’re at work, but they just had on, there wasn’t the, like I’m gonna change into my working girl sneakers to take Bart. They were just like, I’m wearing ugly, comfortable shoes because fuck you. I don’t know. We’re not going to do weird foot things for everyone.

Else’s comfort. Like I’m going to keep my own comfort. And I was like, I like the sensible shoe gals. I am a sensible shoe gal era. And I like it. I like people, like it’s a thing. The, I love the, there is a, a thread of non-conformity in the Bay area that makes my heart swell with of course we’re non-conformance because conformity is constraining and conformity is, it’s meant to shut you up.

I wasn’t born to. Be quiet, especially about injustice. There you go. Okay. So what are some of your, self care practices that you practice as a grownup? 

Hayley: So I have a whole array depending on what my needs are. I love to garden, like when I’m super stressed, like there is nothing better than just like getting my hands in the dirt, like growing things.

you know, if I just get outside being in the sun, being with plants like that to me is just. Just really lights me up. I think gardening is this beautiful way to look at existence. There’s like death in life and like planning, but also like total unpredictability and loss of control in any way.

Everything is for me there in gardening. so that’s a big one for me. And just being in the sun, soaking in buckets of water in my yard, like this being, if I have a really busy day, like I’ll just go outside for Five minutes and be in a Sunbeam. And that’s like really great recharge. I’m definitely a sunflower like you are.

I also meditate from time to time. I really love mindfulness practices. gratitude is like one of my primary go tos. It’s just like, All day, every day, all the gratitude in every way. And that is just a really big standby for me. I’m connecting with my people, especially my sister, who’s my best friend.

I talk to her all the time. and. Also, I asked my partner, I was like, what do I do for self care? Cause I feel like it’s just you know, and he was like, you make spreadsheets, you do lots of research. And I was like, Oh yeah, totally. You know, like it’s very comforting. 

Tami: Like I, I felt I learned some things and that I wrote them down.

I kept him in a safe place. Cause I might need those later. 

Hayley: Yup. And I love to write, I’m a, you know, I’m a journaler and a memoirist and, yeah, those are my big things, 

Tami: you know, so I am a big gratitude person also. And it’s stuff that I’ve been saying lately. Go, I wish I had 39 year old me. Cause it was right when I was becoming a mother and turning 40 and all that everything.

I was just like, Oh, Everything that wasn’t working for me before I’m done. And I took on gratitude as one of those practices. and I feel like it was so life changing internally, but it’s I don’t think anyone who has talked to me for more than five minutes is going to say, Oh, but you are blind.

there’s no blind optimism. And that’s one of the things I said earlier. I said, I’m going to stick to it and effervescent way of being in the world and how you present yourself. But I know that you, or deeply GRA gracious and deeply humbly full of gratitude, and you still see the world for what it is.

Hayley: Cause I think I really did appreciate that, 

Tami: but I think people get afraid. if I get too, if I get to gratitude, I’m going to forget all this stuff. It’s Oh no, don’t worry. It’s still there. And you still see it and you still feel it, but you also feel joy in a way that you can’t, unless you run after it with your hands, like I’m going to grab you.

Joy. I’m going to grab you good things, because like we’re genetically made up to notice the bad stuff. So please don’t use it. That’s going to go way, right? Yeah. But we have to practice that noticing the good stuff, muscle. 

Hayley: Yes. And, you know, I sat in a meeting the other day we were doing some check-in then I was like, I don’t know.

I think I’m just like relentless rejoiceful, but like you said, it doesn’t mean that there’s not a deep attunement with the other pieces. And I think that honestly, one of. The big parts of being a grownup is holding deeply onto contradictions. You know, like I feel like that’s just a thing that’s Oh, wow.

Like here I am with like deep grief and with deep gratitude or here I am in one of life’s hardest moments and. One of the most beautiful times. Like I can truly say that some of the hardest times of my life have also been some of the most beautiful and I hold those things and I sit with the contradictions, but I don’t necessarily try to make sense of them.

If that makes sense. They can just 

Tami: coexist. And it’s so I’m glad you said that because my mom died five years ago and it was, I will just say it is as gut wrenching as the sentence as my mom died is, and. I still practice gratitude every single day to, and including the day that she died, because my mom died.

I could also still see all of the wonderful things in my life on what would could be arguably like the worst day of your life. I was still like, this is the most delicious egg I’ve ever had. Friend who made me like literally five minutes after I found out my mom died, my friend fed me and I was like, I’m not hungry.

And she goes, well, that’s okay. You still have to eat. And I’m still going to feed you and your kid from the chickens, from my backyard, from the food that I grew, my, you love my friend, Candice, I’m just saying, but, and I was like, wow, this is big. And it was like, wow, life isn’t meant. To be easy or pleasurable, but it can be there’s practices that can make that happen.

Yes. Yeah. And they work. Do you actually write it down or do you think 

Hayley: it depends mostly. I just think it nowadays I have kept gratitude journals in the past and you know, sometimes we’ll do like gratitude practices at meals or, you know, but mostly, I just think it now. 

Tami: Yeah, I, we have a, we have gratitude practice at our house with our daughter.

And, and it is astonishing to me where people are like, how come your kid does this? I’m like, Oh, we practice gratitude literally daily. And is, she’s like particularly ungracious about something. I, my response to her as well, but what are you grateful for? She’ll go, Oh my God, how many do I have to do?

And I’m like, until one of us feels better. get your blessings on girlfriend because we’re not going to get stuck in everything sucks because that’s simply not true. 

Hayley: I had this profound moment with my daughter, who’s four going to be five and about a month, recently where she didn’t want to clear her plate.

Right. You know, and it’s hard to still cause she can barely carry like things about drop. you know, it’s high the thing, but you can do a lot around the house. You can fold laundry this and that. She was kind of giving me some attitude about I’m not going to clear my plate, you know? And I was like, well, you know, it’s really important.

And she’s all why. And I was like, well, it’s a way of expressing gratitude. Towards the meal. It’s a way of expressing gratitude to the person who prepared the meal for you, which, you know, in that case was me, or maybe it’s my partner. You know, it’s a way of expressing gratitude to the people who grew our food, brought it to us.

Like it’s a form of reverence basically. Right? It’s a way that we express to each other that we care about each other. Yeah. Network grateful. And she Walked away. And two minutes later, she like came over and started clearing the table, you know? And she’s like, all right. Yeah.

I’m gonna hit that track. 

Tami: Yeah. She’s Oh, that Trish she’s I saw the circle, you drew up this whole, like how the interconnected nature of how something starts as a seed. And that ends up on my plate. 

Hayley: And I only had, I, you mean, 

Tami: I only have to clean off the plate. Okay. Well, I guess I’ll do my part.

Yeah. And kids are into that, That idea of interconnectedness because they understand how connected they are with their caregivers. But as adults, we’re all connected to each other as well. Yeah. Even if we think that we’re not, we’re still connected, present these wacky things called mirror neurons, because what you like part of the reason, I feel like we’re, I feel like we’re kind of on the same wavelength in that I’m like, hi, you are giving me something that I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna smile because our brains are connected in that way.

Right. So the more, the more gratitude and the more reverence that you bring into your life, the more you. You get that back? 

Hayley: Yes. And the more you see, like you said, how, like you are always in collaboration with everything around you, you know, like back to the garden, I’m like, my plant is growing because of the sunshine and the water and the butterflies, like so many things are collaborating with us in every moment.

Tami: Right. And conversely, if everybody’s an asshole, but you, it might be, you. 

Hayley: Yes. Also true from toxic people. I’ve known. It’s at some 

Tami: point you gotta be like, there’s only one of us in common. It’s me. And I used to be that person. So I know this, I mean the only thing that saved me in my pre gratitude life as I am very funny.

And so people were like, ha. I was like, I know, but it was funny. It was like, it was a very sharp knife instead of a dull knife. But you got cut nonetheless. Sorry, not sorry, but that’s the thing like, what you get, what you give out, you get back and it’s not some, it’s not woo karma. It’s like science.

That’s how brains 

Hayley: work. Yes. 

Tami: Oh God. I love brain research that tells me the things that I have found out in my life. Thank you for figuring that out scientists. Okay. So where do you feel like your self care is going well? And what areas would you say would need more attention 

Hayley: if any. Okay. Well, I think one of the areas that I always think about is I really love to move my body joyfully, and that’s always kind of on my list of do more of, because I’m like, so in my brain and most of my work is in front of the computer.

Like many of us. and I’m very privileged and fortunate to have a like relatively at this point in time, it hasn’t always been true, but like a very mobile body that kind of behaves in the ways that I expect it to. but I always lend Oh, I want to get stronger and get more flexible.

And that is one of the things that kinda gets low on my priority list. But, you know, I do a lot of dishes. I walk around my kitchen. I like. I am in the garden. I have dance parties with my kid, but I’m probably never going to be like a regular exerciser. and again, that’s just about you know, I think it’s great to move our bodies.

Bodies are meant to move. It’s not, yeah, something I sort of feel shame about, but it’s one of those things that never makes it high on the list. 

Tami: What’s funny is again, after my mom died, the, ex I became a daily exerciser really easily because. My mom died at 69. I became a mom at 40 and I was like, Oh, I don’t want my, I don’t want to.

And my mom died of complications from diabetes, essentially, which can be, you know, a lot of lifestyle stuff can help in my family, blah, blah, blah. And so I don’t exercise for anything except internal. Like I exercise for my brain 

Hayley: exercise or 

Tami: for, I exercise for 80 year old me. 

Hayley: Yes. that’s what I wanna, that’s why I want to exercise a little more.

And when I was pregnant, I like exercise all the time because I felt like, because I knew it was good for the baby. So anyway, Ooh, 

Tami: that’s a good clue. Yeah, because you might have to think of future you as your like, motivation, like Oh yeah, because I feel like it’s human design flaw that we have to do all these things would have to have such a long like future me is going to love this.

But present me is this is dumb. 

Hayley: I could just keep working. 

Tami: I could just keep working or I could just keep sitting here, although. I, since the last couple of years I’ve been like, just kidding. I’m officially middle age. I just turned 50. And so I’m like, Oh my God, this is for real I’m in that age where they’re like, you have to stop screwing around, like 

Hayley: moving out here now 

Tami: feature arrived.

And you’re like, but I just don’t feel like past me. And they’re like, here’s your a colonoscopy. Wow. I didn’t anticipate that for some reason. Yeah. They’re like, even if you can pass for somebody younger, you’re still gonna have to do this stuff. 

Hayley: They’re like, all right. Fair enough.


Tami: Okay. So what’s your 

Hayley: morning routine? Like I’m big on 

Tami: morning and evening routines. So if you have a morning routine that works for you, or if you have a PM routine, I did not ask that in the questions, but I’m curious about. My am routine on lock. It’s so easy for me, cause I’m a morning person. My PM routine is always in flux and can go to hell in a handbag at any moment.

So tell me about your routines, Hailey. 

Hayley: Okay. So I don’t have a ton of routines. There’s only a couple things that I do every day in the morning. I always drink coffee and I always have an orgasm. 

Tami: You’re the second person 

Hayley: coffee orgasm, 

Tami: just saying, 

Hayley: yeah, I get up. Usually it’s strange. I’m a really early riser and my current partner, is the only person I’ve ever been with, who wakes up earlier than me.

So he often brings me coffee in bed. and I’ll drink coffee in bed and, you know, enjoy some time cruising on the internet or. I start checking my emails. I’ll have my morning orgasm and you know, and then I’ll get up and get to work. And then when my kid wakes up, I’ll, you know, snuggle with her, I wake up earlier than my kid.

Yeah. Yeah. and I’m the most productive in the morning. So I really like to like, do my focused work, like my script writing, or dive into a project, like 7:00 AM to like noon is like power time for me. I really like to dive right into work. And I also think I learned a long time ago because I am an early person that if I got my work done early in the day, then I could hang out with people later.

Tami: Yes. Like I feel like in a way. Like I keep farmers hours. it’s easier for me to get up at 4:00 AM than it is for me to stay up until 4:00 AM. So I’m like 

Hayley: a hundred percent 

Tami: we meet at 4:00 AM. I will just have slept a whole night before we do it. 

Hayley: Absolutely. I’m like, I will get, if I have thinking work to do, I can work late on certain things, but if I have like important thinking work to do, like I’d rather get up at four or 5:00 AM and do it, you know?

And then I like to be. 

Tami: I’m laughing. Cause I’m like, when you say late, do you mean like past 2:00 PM? 

Hayley: I know if I can be done by work at three I’m like awesome. You know, then I can start cooking. I can like, hang out with my kid. Like I can do whatever, you know? And then in the evening, you know, I like to read, maybe read before bed, always an orgasm before bed to, you know, yep.

Tami: I think you may have just unlocked a secret for a lot of people that are like, I, what I’m hearing is I’m not having enough orgasms or reading enough. 

Hayley: Yeah. That is 100% true. I think if you’re like orgasms, you will definitely sleep better and you definitely won’t feel worse. 

Tami: Right. Okay. I might add to catch the am and, or PM routine, both.

And I have you guys, if you are like, but I have issues around that area. I have an episode with my friend Kara house, who, her business is all about, sex ed and sexuality through from, I met her because she gave a talk to our preschool class, not the kids, but the parents. about how we can help not give our sexual baggage to our kids.

Hayley: Yeah. 

Tami: So she shout out to Carrie, I’m going to write in your notes, like link to Kara’s episode. I’m writing on my desk. there’s my big secret. I write in pencil on my desk. 

Hayley: I love it. You just need a little whiteboard desk. Well, I kind of have one chalkboard paint. it’s 

Tami: you know, I have an Ikea desk from 

Hayley: a white Ikea desk and a 

Tami: pencil.

It works great. but anyway, I’m going to add, I’m going to put orgasm on my list. I think that’s a good idea. Okay. So what else should people know about you? And then again, where can people find you online? especially people who are like, Oh, shit, I need help with video. So tell us where do you, what do we need to know about you and where can people find you online?

Hayley: what people can know is that I do full service video production, as I mentioned. So I help companies, profits and small businesses create videos, start to finish from writing the scripts, you know, filming our sourcing footage, editing the piece and giving it to you in a form that you can put on your website for your fundraiser or on your social media.

So do a lot of help with people who are getting their events online, as we know, like everything is video now. So if you have an event that’s turning virtual, if you’re working on an online class, if you need to do some live streaming, like I’m your lady and I got you. And I also do consulting with folks who are trying to figure out how to, you know, better up either their tech or their, you know, On camera personality.

any of those pieces, like I, you know, I feel like I already saw this, but I. I just so strongly believe that everyone can make amazing video and that the world will be a better and more beautiful place. The more of us are sharing our beautiful, diverse stories and selves. And there is no reason in this current moment that we cannot all be harnessing the power of video to share ourselves online.

And I think it’s just such a powerful tool for connection and for growing, a business or a cause online. 

Tami: I love it. And I. I wholeheartedly concur with we, people want to work with people they know and trust, and there’s no better way for people to learn about you and your business and who you are then actually seeing your face and talking to them.

Hayley: Yeah. Exactly. So you can find me on Instagram again, queer underscore mamma or Everhart creative. And you can also find me on my website, Everhart creative.com or you can email me Haley, H a L E y@everhartcreative.com too. Perfect. 

Tami: I love it. Okay. Haley, are you ready for our quick fire questions? 

Hayley: I’m ready.

Tami: Okay. So I used to watch inside the actor’s studio, but only the last five minutes because I did, it was like, I don’t care about the craft and all that. You all say the same thing. What I want to know is the quickfire questions. So I came up with my own and I took one of theirs, which is the last question.

Which is, what is your favorite swear word? Because I always want to have an explicit rating. People are like, Oh, I don’t want to have an explicit rating on my podcast. I’m like every fucking episode it’s explicit because I cannot be thinking about not swearing while I’m having good conversations. I cannot be bothered with censoring myself.

So that’s why I chose that question. Okay. First question, Haley, what is your Enneagram type? 

Hayley: You could probably guess it’s a three.

Tami: I hear you. I see your three, but you also said that you have it. Oh, you don’t have an inner critic? 

Hayley: No. Okay, cool. I mean, not really. 

Tami: I have one, I have yours. Don’t worry. I love threes. Cause I’m like, I get you. I get tons of stuff done too. But then I’m like, Ooh, that girl in your, head’s not slowing you down.

Like she’s slowing me 

Hayley: down now. I know I’m more of a wing two. Maybe then anything else? Like 

Tami: I’m a one wing too. There we go. Okay. Okay. Introvert or extrovert? 

Hayley: I like it. Just say that I’m an outgoing introvert or a very selective extrovert. 

Tami: Okay. So do you know your Myers? 

Hayley: I get in TJ. 

Tami: Really? I am Inn. Yes.

Okay. Known as the extroverted introvert. 

Hayley: Oh, maybe I need to retake it. Maybe it’s been awhile. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Okay. Have you heard of the Gretchen Rubin for tendencies? 

Hayley: I looked it up because I liked to prepare. 

Tami: Okay, good. And so did you take the quiz 

Hayley: or you did 

Tami: and what did it come up with? 

Hayley: Okay. It came up with obligers.

The one that’s meets external expectations, right. More than internal. Yeah. Yeah. Close I’m. Like I bridged that in the upholder, but. I definitely have some obliger tendencies. 

Tami: Okay. And I work with almost exclusively. I we’re working with, I work with almost exclusively, obligers because I need external accountability and rebels and cause rebels are like, you can’t boss me around and neither can I, and I’m like, let me explain how we can work around your internal dialogue about getting stuff done.

And I am a questioner. It means every time somebody comes at me with, I have to do something I’m like, You better prove it the off. Cause I’m like, I’ve been like that since birth. I just am super quiet about I’m not doing it. I’m just like, 

Hayley: you know, see, I think I was like that when I was younger, but I think I’ve structured a life such that like the only people that I let give me external expectations, I’m like very selective about.

Yeah. And then I think the obliger piece, like I’m moving definitely more into the upholder because of, you know, my own battery work that I’ve done in the past 10 years. Exactly. I 

Tami: mean, it’s so interesting though. Right? Okay. Love language. But he 

Hayley: asked what service for sure. 

Tami: 100%. And it’s so funny again, watching you and what girl, I see you doing stuff now.

What is your, do you know what your secondary is? 

Hayley: It’s like active services. So high. I think my secondary is way lower, but it’s words of affirmation. 

Tami: I’m words of affirmation and then acts of service. And my spouse is opposite. He is acts of service words. So we’re just in this love language continuum of doing stuff and giving compliments.

Doing stuff that compliments, 

Hayley: I was not, I was previously married to someone who was not acts of service. And now my current partner is definitely acts of service, Mormon background, like service deeply embedded to like the cultural norms, you know, and yeah, it’s exactly what you’re describing. Just all like beautiful acts of service and the other pieces come into, but like we really get each other on that way.

Tami: And it’s I. Okay. So that book is super Jesus. See, at the end, like I want to rip the last 50 pages out and go, don’t read that part. So I think I can’t wholeheartedly, Oh my God. Dive into this, but I, the framework to be so helpful. And once he found that out, I was like, Sweetheart. We never have to buy another gift.

He’s Oh, thank God. We’ll see. We can stop pretending we care about gifts. I’m like, I will want gifts, but I’m going to tell you what I want. And you’re going to buy that as an act of service. And we’re going to high five about how I want exact thing. And he’s right back at you, 

Hayley: I’ve been with people who like, it’s like quality time is their number one.

And like quality time. I mean, of course I like care about it, but it doesn’t have that like resonance for me. And I’m always just Okay. I guess here we are. This seems fine. I don’t know. it’s not really doing for me what I think it’s supposed to be doing for you. 

Tami: Totally. And it’s so funny.

I had to rename all of the love languages. So I call, acts of service, getting shit done, or doing shit for you. I call words of affirmation is gold stars. 

Hayley: Yeah, 

Tami: and I call quality time asses in the seats. physical touch is like it’s hugging and gifts as gifts. I’m like, I don’t know what to tell you, but it’s so funny.

One of my friends. Her fiance is, he’s a, his love language is gifts. And he is like so extravagant. And I’m like, dude, every time when you leave the house, you just get him something, anything. Yeah. Thinking about you, I got you this chocolate chip cookie. Now you don’t know that I got free with my lunch, but I thought of you.

And she was like, what? And she tried it. She was like, Oh, I was like, I know I don’t it’s it’d be that simple, but I’m like, maybe it’s that simple. 

Hayley: Totally. 

Tami: maybe it’s that simple. I just have to give you the thing that makes you feel the way you want to feel. 

Hayley: Okay. 

Tami: And they have it for kids.

Have you done it for your 

Hayley: daughter yet? I haven’t. I should. That would be fun. 

Tami: I will say my kid is a quality time. With an acts of service slash gold stars that just might be modeling, but that’s her secondary. But I tried it because I thought no way. And then I started playing board games at 6:00 AM.

Hayley: My daughter’s behavior. 

Tami: Completely changed. I was like, I just had to play UNO and then, and you’ll be like, so cooperative, like one day we’ll get me homework done. Another game of UNO will get me complete compliance on the morning routine. 

Hayley: I feel great. I feel like quality time is probably my kids. Number one, but the acts of service, definitely a close second.

I can’t remember recently because you know, my partner and I are really into acts of service and he is such a homemaker and he was always dialing things in the house to really be like delightful for me and for us. And the other day she was like, Evan, I feel like I need a towel in the bathroom.

That’s my height. Like she’s starting to notice these like moments. And I feel like, yeah, it’s really her way of saying this is how you can show me that you love me too, you know? And they’re in a step parent relationship he’s been in our lives for maybe a year and a half, you know? So it’s it’s just fascinating.

I’m so beautiful to see like that culture of like love, you know, of all. 

Tami: Well, and I just got chills because your daughter’s not even five. And she’s Hey, you know, it would be really helpful for me. Is this very small, what we could do be kind of look out as maybe even insignificant. And she’s but if you give me that, then I can participate in this meaningful way in work that is making our house better for everyone.

Yeah. I’ll just tell you, Haley, you come to my house and you go, can I have a spoon? And I’m like, sure. Go to the drawer by your knees. Like, why is your silverware so low? Because when my kid was two, I said, can you put that silverware away from the dishwasher? And she’s really short. So we just everything’s our microwave.

It’s six inches off the ground. I to heat up something I have to get on the ground and people like, why am I, well, I want my kid to be able to make a case. Yeah. So the microwave has to be low. Her dishes are low and the silverware is low. Because I want her to have this meaningful, I want her to have meaningful work in her house so that she builds this confidence that she is a meaningful contributing member to our family.

Hayley: Yes. Part of our culture too. And people are always like, wow, your kid does X, Y, and Z. And I’m like, yeah, I mean, you know, part of it’s her, she was definitely the life one and a half year old. I do it myself. But also part of it’s as, you know, being like, no, this is what it means to be in a family.

Totally. I mean, 

Tami: my daughter’s name is Ruby, but she. Called herself, Rudy for years, Rudy, I was like, okay, Rudy, let me teach it. every time there’s a hole in something that she, that belongs to her, I don’t really know how to sell, but I can make a hole, disappear, something 

Hayley: in a rude way, 

Tami: threaded the needle and gave it to her and showed her how.

And I have all these videos of her, like two and three years old, like sewing her pillow back together or sewing her stuff down and we’ll back together. And people like how I was like, I never had a more enthusiastic participant than a toddler in anything I’m like, Oh, you want to help?

Let me teach you how to fold napkins. And then we’re going to fold dish towels, and then you can fold. I was like, I don’t know how to an advanced degree in laundry, 

Hayley: but 

Tami: I do have somebody who wants to learn. So we’ve been taking summer during shelter in place to, cause we don’t have a house cleaner anymore.

I’m sad. So the house cleaner is me and everybody else that lives here. So I have been teaching her how to clean the bathroom. And so we’re in the shower, like scrubbing the tile and doing the thing. And she turns around and she goes, Oh mama, this is so fun. I was like, Kati you’re so nine gotta collect this energy and you’re going to be so good at cleaning that everyone’s going to be out of your roommate.

Hayley: Me 

Tami: a roommate that knows how to clean the bathroom. Well, and she’s I love spending this time with you. I’m like, okay, we could literally be doing anything and now I’m clean teaching you how to clean a shower. Okay, 

Hayley: cool. I love kids so much. I do too. I do too. 

Tami: Is if we put them to work in the way that’s meaningful, I feel like it’s if you have a border Collie, You can have a nervous Nellie, crazy person, crazy dog who chews up all your stuff, or you can give that dog who’s meant to work a job.

And then they can be like the best dog ever. let’s just harness people’s innate skills and talents and traits. 

Hayley: Yes. Yeah. Kids want to help. They want to work. They want to learn. It’s yeah. And yeah, if you’ve got them at the right age, when it’s still like super fun and not a burden, 

Tami: Yeah, but I will say, but a lot of people like, but they are not 

Hayley: very good at it.

That’s true. It takes a lot of patients. It’s so true. I mean, even with the cooking, like I’m super into cooking and baking and like things don’t always turn out as well, or they take three times as long and that’s where I really do call on future self, and future child. Like I imagine her, you know, at 20 or whatever, like having this high level of skills or I even imagine me, you know, five, 10 years and what she’s able to do because I stuck with it and had that extra level of patience because you see what happens.

It’s like that short term thinking it doesn’t pan out in the long run. 

Tami: Well, I, so I S I don’t know if you know this, but I used to be an elementary school teacher. So when I was in my student teaching, you know, cause right. You know, writing is a process. It’s there’s the thinking part. And then there’s the drafting part.

And then there’s the actual, like writing production. And then there’s the editing. And then, excuse me, there’s the revising actually making it better. And then there’s the editing, which is like correcting your shit. And then there’s the publishing. Right. And the teacher I was working collaborative with, she would do a lot of the, the editing for them.

She’s they’re terrible at this. I was like, but how are they ever going to get better? You’re doing it like you’re sick. And so kids, I had to have a student. My first year of teaching was like, Yeah. A couple months in and he said, I w I’ll never forget this. He goes, you are one of the laziest grownups I have ever met.

And I was like, 

Hayley: okay, 

Tami: can you tell me more about that? He’s you don’t do anything around here, but open the door and write the schedule on the board. And I was like, and your point he’s what do you do here? And I said, well, I said, thank you for noticing. I said, I have a philosophy and that is, if kids can do it at any level, they should be doing it.

Cause I already went to third grade and 

Hayley: I’m 

Tami: good at third grade stuff. Cause I’m like 35 and I said, don’t worry. I said next year, when you go to a different teacher’s class, They will treat you like a baby again, and you will not feel nearly as good about yourself as you do in this moment. But he was like, okay.

Hayley: You’re 

Tami: just, you’re lazy. I’m just, you’re on molest. I was like, okay, whatever. And then the first week of school, the next year, he literally ran up to me on the playground. He’s like, how did you know? I was like, I eat lunch with your teacher. I, we all eat lunch together. They’re my friends. This is how this works.

And he was like, Yeah. Yeah, I go, I just, you guys are terrible at stuff cause you’re inexperienced and I give you lots and lots of opportunity to practice and to help each other. And yes, does it. I was like, does it make my life easier? I was like, yeah, by the end of the year, it’s easier. It’s really hard for me not to micromanage your terrible work right now.

I’m looking at the long game. But I had students write me letters, like when they were in high school and they were like, why literally the hardest I ever worked was in your class. And I was like, I love you 

Hayley: too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: I know. And it’s painful when we’re all growing together and we’re learning stuff. I hate learning.

It sucks. it’s painful. It’s uncomfortable. You’re bad at stuff. but it’s 

Hayley: horrible to be bad at stuff. 

Tami: Yeah. But it’s literally, there’s you can’t skip it. I guess that’s the 

Hayley: point. That’s what I always talk to her about. I’m like, Oh, of course. Oh, learning new things is all hard. It’s so hard to not be good at stuff, but that’s how we learn new things.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. Well, so what’s your favorite last book that you read? 

Hayley: That’s a tough one, but I’m going to say an American marriage. Have you read it? 

Tami: Oh, it was so good. Okay. Good choice. what is your favorite book of all time? Hard 

Hayley: to say, but why be happy when you can be normal to not Winterson memoir, that’s a lie for her mother.


Tami: be happy 

Hayley: when you could be normal. It’s like they it’s like the counter to what you and I have been talking about. yeah. And I, and her rebellion 

Tami: and I’m going to go get it. Okay. What is your favorite personal development book? 

Hayley: You know, I don’t know. I’m not much of a personal development reader, but when I saw this question, I was thinking about the book parenting from the inside out, which I really loved.

Tami: That was one of the only parenting books. Yeah. 

Hayley: Yeah. One of the only ones worth reading how to talk. So kids will listen and listen. So kids will talk. That’s also, 

Tami: I’m looking at that book right now on my shelf and I am a huge proponent of positive discipline by Jay Nelson. but all of those things fit together.

Like they’re all like. Yeah. Parenting from the inside out. If you guys haven’t read it yet, here’s what you need to know, get your shit together. And your kids will be fine. damn. You ain’t even have to read the book. You don’t have to know shit. Cause you know what it’s you, it’s not them.

Mirror neurons. 

Hayley: Get your shit. 

Tami: Your kids will be fine. And that’s what I was like, Oh man, that goes back to the mission of my work, which is. Let us not think that you can somehow parent better than your personal state of being. Yes. 

Hayley: It doesn’t work like that. I know when you hear the martyr parents thing, you know, and they’re so stressed out and they’re so irritable and they’re beating themselves up by, you know, they’re snapping at their kids and you know, this and that.

And all I can think is yeah, you got to get yourself straight. Like you’re never going to be less irritable. You’re not going to serve that to solve that interpersonally until like you take care of yourself and 

Tami: go to the source. 

Hayley: Yeah. Yep. 

Tami: Yeah, I do. I do love that book, although, but reading it, I was like, why is this book more than one sentence?

Hayley: I know, I think I maybe like half of it. And then I was like, okay. Yeah, 

Tami: got it. Get my shit together. Go into therapy. Okay. Okay. Oh, you mean? Yeah. Do self care. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that one up because yes, that is a good one. Favorite social media channel. Where do you like to hang out? Really?

Okay. I’m hearing you. I have enjoyed a lot of watching. Like I see people post stuff on Twitter cause I love Twitter. sometimes Instagram is where I hang out the most, but I do love Twitter, tick tock. Okay. I’m going to say this in the most, uninformed and nonjudgmental. And Annette, I’m going to say stick with uninformed.

I have heard rumors that it’s really bad for information, mining, even worse than like the bullshit we’re on with Zuckerberg. 

Hayley: Yes, it is. You know, and I think that’s a real serious issue. and one that really needs to be addressed, but just in terms of the pure joy I get from hanging out on there, like it’s just got great content, 

Tami: So what kind of content do you consume or do you make content or both? 

Hayley: Both. and again, you know, it was a younger, the person in this case, my stepdaughter, it was like my sister who was like, get on YouTube, I’ve done them all. I was like a huge Twitter person. Like years ago I had an anonymous Twitter.

I’ve done everything. Right. I love YouTube. I still like Instagram a lot, but my stepdaughter was like, you got to get on tick tock. And then I was like, alright, I’ll like, try to make a tech talk. I kept trying to figure it out and I couldn’t figure out. And finally, I just like. Made one while my partner was like doing my hair and then I just uploaded it.

And then it like got a million bucks. And my step daughter was 

Tami: like, 

Hayley: Oh my God, I told you it’d be good. And I was like, well, I guess I am a professional story teller. So even me just fooling around, like it had to be, you know, Anyway, but now I don’t really make that much. I mostly consumed and there’s just everything.

Tami: I mean, there’s just really 

Hayley: interesting content. There’s this whole like lesbian subculture, that’s called like cottage core. That’s basically like cute queer people, homesteading sort of adjacent foresty. There’s a ton of black lives matter content on there. There’s you know, trans and gender queer youth, just being like, I don’t care about you.

And I do a lot of work with like youth driven nonprofits too. And I just got to say the kids are, you know, black and Brown and queer and move out of the way old white guys. So like, whenever I hang out with you, which is a little bit like what I feel like I’m doing on take top, I’m like, all right, we’re going to be fine.

Tami: I think it’s funny. I, as a gen X person, I feel like the thing that has, made this latest generation, which I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna predict it. The greatest generation is the democratization of information 

Hayley: dissemination, 

Tami: like giving everyone their own goddamn channel. He has changed the world cause old white guys they own when there was only four channels that they dominated those Jacqueline.

Hayley: But 

Tami: now that the channels are infinite, you’re like, I don’t have to, 

Hayley: I don’t need those gatekeepers, bye. 

Tami: Exactly. And once the gatekeepers are gone and that democracy, that’s why also why it feels really Oh my God, things are out of control because there’s no gatekeepers. That’s actually a good 

Hayley: thing.

Agreed 100%. I did a project years ago interviewing lesbian YouTube owners on like why they had their channels and this and that. And every single one of them was like, I needed a place to go where I could be in control of my own content. And I didn’t need to ask a gatekeeper for permission. And I was like, yeah, that’s profound.


Tami: just make fingers all tingling when you said that. Yeah. It’s. I’m here for people who were formerly disenfranchised to be like, I’m not going to play within that power structure anymore. Cause I don’t have 

Hayley: to exactly love it as a storyteller. And I just think it’s just very interesting, like from a storytelling perspective, 

Tami: I think it’s interesting from a democracy perspective.

Hayley: Absolutely. 

Tami: You know, I worked in politics for a long time. And again, there was, when I was doing it 20 years ago, there was like one channel, like the internet had basically just started being invented, but we were still for all of our mail. We were sending things in the physical mail. Right. And people had to watch commercials and people had to do all of these things and you don’t have to do any of that anymore.

It re it requires a level of responsibility on the consumers part. Yes. In such new ways. But I like being a grownup about stuff. 

Hayley: I like that. I like that all different kinds of people can see themselves reflected in the media because. There’s so many different kinds of content. Like you said, the fifth year old woman, like how to look better as an older like that wouldn’t no one had, would have funded that show, you know?

Tami: Exactly. Well also because you know, 50 year old women are I’m old. I don’t look, I actually look younger 

Hayley: now 

Tami: than I did 20. That’s 

Hayley: awesome. 

Tami: Part of it is because of the content that I. consume by other people my age, who are like, you know, you need to do, you need to lift that camera up and you need to put the filter on everything that you’re on.

You need to do this. And I’m like, what? 

Hayley: Grab your ring light. 

Tami: Grab your ring light. I’ll we still have to solve there. The glasses in the ring light 

Hayley: conversation. Yes. We need to talk about 

Tami: that. Talk about that. okay. We have gone 

Hayley: off. I know I was going to say that relates to my favorite TV show, which I know is your next question, which is.

Probably I got to say, I’m not actually a big TV consumer. I make so much more content that I consume, but grace and Frankie, baking of incredible older women. 

Tami: I love that. Love 

Hayley: that. 

Tami: I love everything about that show. And it’s so funny because I write this question as what’s your favorite TV show. But what I really mean is what is your favorite show past, present and future, if you were going to write one or if you’ve already got one, so grace and Frankie makes the list.

What other kinds of media do you like or that have you created that other people should check out? 

Hayley: Oh, that’s a good question. I mean, I just think it’s amazing that there’s actually like queer content now. there just were no queer shows like really when I was growing up and this is not a TV show, although I hope they would make it.

But when I saw fun home, which is like the Alison Bechtel, like dykes to watch out for comic, it was made into a Broadway musical. And when I sat in a theater and watched like a Butch dykes story, On a giant stage with a massive audience. I was just balling. Like I was just like, Holy fuck. This is so profound.

Tami: Well, the idea that representation matters is in all regards, it’s so funny. I was having a conversation with somebody who is running for city council, not in my town. And I met her in a group. Called dear grown-ass women. it’s a ladies group for people over 35. It’s awesome. Anyway, we were talking about, representation and I was like, what’s so weird is in 1991, I wrote a college paper about black female representation in Congress and how, the only way that black women were going to be protected in this country is if there were more black women in office.

And she was like, what kind of fucking profit are you? I was like, well, I’m not, I just look at the power structure. And I’m like, dudes are taken care of, they don’t stay women’s health and they sure should throw it saying white women’s health. They’re not sure should not studying black women’s 

Hayley: health.

Tami: And if you have women at the table women’s issues, I was actually working or in later than I worked in the current congressional caucus for women’s issues. That’s not a mouthful to say. but I was like, 

Hayley: they don’t 

Tami: men typically, especially men in power do not see what they are not. They don’t, I don’t give a fuck.

Cause they’re like that doesn’t affect me. We’re not going to study menopause. That doesn’t affect me. And we’re not going to study birth control. We’re not going to study the effects of this common drug 

Hayley: on 

Tami: anybody, but if 

Hayley: 150 year old, Man. I’m like, well, why are you giving it to women? Right. It’s 

Tami: crazy town.

Okay. So that was another soap box that everyone is welcome to. Finally, 

Hayley: Hailey, 

Tami: what is your favorite swear word? 

Hayley: Dominantly. Fuck. 

Tami: The hands down, runaway winner. My daughter just walked in the room, started laughing cause we a week, not that long ago at our family meeting and our goal for the week was for all of us to stop swearing so much because it didn’t work, but we were like, we’re going to have to go out with other people at some point,

edit that out. 

Hayley: I’m 

Tami: going to edit that out. Stop it. Go back in the kitchen. I’m almost done. Go back in the kitchen. Katie, can you add up, edit out Ruby. Swearing. I’m not talking to Katie. I’m talking to Haley. Go in the kitchen.

Okay. That’s what you get. It’s showing off her company. They’re like, Oh, I got some squares. No seriously, Katie, if you could white out that part of Ruby, swearing, anyhow, 

Hayley: fuck 

Tami: is by and large. it’s the word that, it’s the word that keeps on giving 


Hayley: It makes a statement very useful. Very useful.

Tami: Okay. Friends, you know, Haley. It’s going to help you solve your storytelling and your video problem. So find her on Instagram, check out our website. And until next time, remember that you matter too.


EP 67: Organizing Everything with Lisa Woodruff

EP 67: Organizing Everything with Lisa Woodruff

This week’s episode is all about systems and organization. I interviewed Lisa Woodruff the creator of Organization 365 and the author of The Paper Solution.

Organization is a learnable skill. Lisa and I are both former teachers and we talk about teaching our kiddos how to take care of their spaces, stuff and how we can empower our families through imperfect action.

This is such good news because that means if we aren’t yet organized we can learn it and if our kids aren’t yet organized they can learn too!

Tami: Good morning. 

Lisa: Good morning. 

Tami: So happy to see her face. Okay. So who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Lisa: So my name is Lisa Woodruff. I am the founder and owner of organized three 65 and I help busy women get their home and paper organized in one year with functional systems that work. 

Tami: I just got chills because, Oh my God, I help women get their time and energy back so they can go after their big dreams and maybe not be chased by their paper monsters.

So Lisa, tell me. How you work with people and more importantly, tell me about your brand new book, the paper solution. 

Lisa: Yes. So originally with people was one on one as a professional organizer, but now I’m more like your adult teacher and I teach you through the organized three 65 podcast. And if you like my teaching style, then you can go deeper with books and courses.

And in our online communities, And the paper solution is my newest book out. And it’s being published by penguin random house. And it is 

Tami: all about how to 

Lisa: organize paper. There really is not a good book out there. That’s not just the digital solution, but how do we actually do the act of organizing, going from stuffed piling cabinets to a solution that is ready to be digitized that in between organizational phase, that’s where I live.

Tami: And what I did again, I got chills because I actually worked with a professional organizer last year for six months. And one of the things we did is we took four file for like many to Dirk bile cabinets down to one. And I thought, there’s no way this is possible, but it is possible. So I have all of these clients that I work with.

And one of the things that they say is. God, if I could just be more organized, I’m like, I know people who can help you. I know people who do this for a living. So tell me a little bit more about the book. What could people expect about, um, helping slay that, um, that paper dragon, I call it deferred.

Decisions. Yes. I call it my shame pile. So tell us how you help people get rid of that in their home so they can move forward and live a more peaceful existence. Yes. 

Lisa: So your audience that is starting to get organized. I could tell you right now where they’re starting in their closet or they’re starting their kitchen.

That’s where everybody starts, because that’s where we spend most of our time. And the benefit of starting in your kitchen or in your closet is there’s a plethora of information. There are books, there are videos, there’s Pinterest, there’s all these examples of what it looks like when you’re done. When you’re doing paper organization, it looks like a color coded filing cabinet.

Like how does that help you? It helps you with aesthetically, what it looks like. But it doesn’t teach you anything about the categories of paper. And so what I did in the paper solution book was 

Tami: I took your paper 

Lisa: and I made it feel like different categories of clothing or different categories in your kitchen.

So you’re like, Oh, these are all medical papers. These are all financial papers. These are all kid related papers. These are all actionable papers. And then once you got a category of paper, I said, okay, great. Now we have all of our. Medical paper, honestly, most of what you do for medical is still in your brain.

So I need to give you these worksheets and I need you to fill these out and put them with the rest of your medical papers. So you have a complete medical binder. That was the other thing I found with paper. It’s not just being able to categorize and trim down the paper. We have 

Tami: a lot of the really 

Lisa: important part of paper is in our brain or on our computer.

And not digitized on our computer, but like it’s medical records that are in the program that our pediatrician has for our kids. And we go and we get that and we print it out and you added in the binder. So our filing cabinet is about a third what’s on the internet is about a third and what’s in your brain is about a third.

And you add all that together and then you have complete binders and there are four binders that really will help you feel more organized. 

Tami: And I love this idea of getting it out of your brain because. So many people feel overwhelmed because they’re BK because there’s like the clutter of the paper and the like, Oh my God, what do I do?

And why did, why does school send home so many papers? And what’s the deal. But also it’s that constant feeling like you’re missing something feeling like it’s not quite complete. And that drains so much of people’s energy. So I’m super excited about this book. 

Lisa: you’re using your brain like a, to do list and your brain is a super a computer that’s supposed to be planning out the visions and the unique thing that you were created to do in the world.

You’re using it to remember to get milk and to schedule another haircut. And so if you could start using paper for that and a weekly planning time and a couple of binders that run your household, you’re going to free up your brain to do things like think. And it’s, um, it’s amazingly freeing. 

Tami: Yeah. yes it is.

And again, the other side of that is so I help people get their time and energy back so they can go up to their big dreams. But a lot of times when you ask people what they really want, what is their vision? When you ask them, who are you going to be in 25 years? They’re like, I have no idea because I have to order that school uniform, how am I going to handle distance learning?

And what do I do with all this stupid paper? So between the two of us, we can really get people thinking in this bigger, more global, like how can I be somebody who creates the world? I want to see it’s you stop worrying about. All the paper, 

Lisa: a hundred percent. It’s the paper in the house. And I was finding the same exact thing.

Like I say, spend 12 to 18 months with me and then go out and do what you were uniquely created to be in the world. And then people say, Lisa, I’m organized. How do I do that? What I was finding for many women is that they would start to. Do what they were uniquely created to do if they knew what that was.

And then something falls apart at home and then they give themselves guilt and shame about the fact that they didn’t have it perfect at home. So I have to give up that dream and go home and make sure all the laundry is done and all the dishes are done and the house is clean and everything is organized before I’m allowed.

To leave the house like Cinderella and go do anything. And as soon as I am on a plane or over here, and something falls apart at home, it’s my responsibility that fell apart at home. And what I hear from people once they get their paper in their home, organized is they are literally out doing something and they get that call.

Where is this paper? How do we do this? And they go, it’s in the third pink slash in the Sunday basket, go get it. And they feel like a rock star and they go on with it. Yeah. Life. 

Tami: But if their 

Lisa: house is in cleaned and organized enough where they can give those directions, whether they should be responsible for that or not, let’s just not even get into that.

Are apparently 

Tami: when you get an organized, 

Lisa: you get time and then you get freedom because you can give directions to people who are still at home and asking those things of you. 

Tami: and you can also empower the other people in your house to follow the systems that are set up. So I have a rising fourth grader, so my kid’s about to be 10.

And one of the things that I hear over and over, and she has ADHD and some sensory stuff, but what I hear over and over again is she always knows where her things are at school. And it cracks me up because I’m like, of course she does because she has a system because we’ve been working on systems.

For her entire life. So every time she says, where are my shoes? I’m like, I would definitely look in the shoe basket first after that, I don’t know you’re on your own. If you didn’t use the system that we’ve created, but there’s a really good likelihood that they found themselves back where they belong, because we have a system you’ve been using the system, we use the system and it just helps free up everyone in the house.

And it also empowers. Are you are young people. I know you have or kids, but it empowers them to think, Oh, I know how to run a house. Because I learned this step by step way to make these things happen. 

Lisa: you’re pointing out that organization is a learnable skill. It is going to take some people longer to learn it, but it is a learnable skill.

So my children both have learning disabilities, ADHD, sensory, just add just. They’re all the, we have most of the diagnoses you’re going to throw at us. One of them has it. So my son extreme ADHD learned to organize very quickly. He’s very much a minimalist. And so he doesn’t have very many, his thing was, Oh, if I have nothing, the mom can’t make me stay in my room to organize my room that worked for him.

My daughter loves lots of things. She loves she’s very eclectic. So to get her to learn, to organize her room took 18 months. Of me doing it every single Saturday with her and the whole first month was her laying on the bed while I did it verbally telling her what I was doing in overtime. Just this week, she’s reorganizing her basement apartment.

She is 19 years old, comes up in our bedroom and she goes, I don’t know where to start. I said, great. Go get all the laundry and start the laundry. So she goes away, comes back half an hour later. Okay. At the laundry started, what do I do next month? Okay. Go get all the trash. So I’m going through what we learned 10 years prior when I taught her at the age of nine, but she and my son too.

He’ll call me. He’s like my apartment’s over. Where do I start? Okay. Joey, get a little laundry, started calls and call me back, get all the trash, go call me back. And I created this little system for them that eventually they stopped coming in my bedroom and stop calling me because I got them going in that mode of what it takes to organize this.

Space, their space has just gotten bigger than their bedroom. It’s a learnable skill. We get stuffed in overwhelmed when it gets too big and out of control. And we need to get it back in order again. So 

Tami: you used to be a teacher. I used to be a teacher. So I think that for people who are listening, who are not teachers, one of the things I hear from non-teachers is this is one of my favorite questions.

They go, how many times am I have to talk to my kid about X I’m? Like. As many as it takes for them to stop asking for help, like that’s all, as long as it takes, the reason they’re asking is because they don’t know yet. So make it really teachable. 

Lisa: And also everyone has their own bandwidth for what they can handle, like, so I’m recording a whole bunch of interviews today and then I’m going to drive from Cincinnati to Columbus to be something for my son and home.

And my husband’s like, aren’t you going to be exhausted? And I’m like, yeah, but it’s important. And I’m just going to do it. And I have that capacity. He doesn’t have that capacity. So for our children growing up, they have never done a chores. Like 

Tami: they 

Lisa: don’t do dishes. They didn’t learn to do laundry until they were 18 years old was a huge, okay.

Endeavor for them. And they needed a lot of downtime and they had a lot of anxiety. So it’s not that everything is learnable. So because it’s learnable, everyone has to do everything perfectly. And until you have all your chores done, you can’t relax. Like you have to be realistic with everybody’s different capacity levels.

But if you want to teach something, if you want to learn something, there is a way to do it. 

Tami: Yeah, and I feel like, but it’s having, we use a lot of checklists in our house and we use a lot of visual reminders and we use a lot of one, one at a time. There’s not a lot of, um, since we’ve been doing distance learning, obviously we’re in the 20, 20 era.

Um, one of the things, so we don’t have a house cleaner anymore, which is both devastating and amazing because I’m like, It’s a bummer to clean your own house. You guys, we all know that’s part of my self care. However, I took every single job. Like I broke down how to clean a bathroom and I put every single step on a posted note.

And then I put it in the bathroom with us and I brought my nine year old and I was like, what’s one of the pick a thing. Let’s do it. And so I’ve been systematically teaching her each part and every time we’re in the tiny bathroom together and we only have one bathroom, but that thing is spit shined within an inch of its life because she’s like, mama, this is so fun because we’re in there together.

She’s learning grownups skill. I’m like you are going to be the best roommate anyone has ever had. Starting with me being your roommate. I really want somebody else to know how to clean the bathroom. And if you think this is fun, I caught you at the right age. But, and if 

Lisa: you don’t have your house cleaner right now, or you’re like, Oh, it would be nice to have a house cleaner.

I can let you know it’s seven weeks before dust becomes noticing. So go ahead. 

Tami: Everything 

Lisa: that the house cleaner was doing every other week. I didn’t have to do every other week. Now, the bathrooms, they tend to get dirty every week. Cause apparently I don’t do as good of a job as she does that. It makes it two weeks.

And I like to vacuum every week, but dusting, you can go a full seven weeks before you even notice the dust and then it’s unbearable. And so you can dust like every two months, 

Tami: right? Or you could say, Hey, it would be fun four year old, put these socks on your hands and let them do it really imperfectly.

Lisa: Yep. 

Tami: Once a week and then maybe at the two month Mark, you’re like, okay, really? I need to do that. What is the one time to start over? But I love this idea of delegation and teaching. And finally, one of the things finally feeling relaxed and. Like I got this, like, I feel like that’s one thing that really helps people relax, is feeling like, ah, okay, I can do this.

Lisa: One of the things I say and people really tend to glom onto is you do realize there are no organizing police, right? Like, no one’s coming in your house and they’re going to walk through and go, Oh my gosh, you know what, if you really would have finished this and you’re looking for this, you walk through your house and you see every single thing that is undone.

But when you go in your family member’s house or your best friend’s house, you don’t see anything that’s undone, but you feel like when they come in your house, they do it. First of all, nobody’s going in anybody’s houses. So feel free, get it done. But nobody’s noticing that you’re so much harder on yourself than anybody else’s 

Tami: give 

Lisa: yourself.

Grace. And I like to put all of my energy into my bedroom, my bathroom, my closet. Because that’s where I live. And so you have one bathroom, Tammy, so it’d be your one bathroom, your closet, your bedroom. I am in control of that space. I’m an adult woman. and that is the only space in my house truly in control of.

I tell you what right now, if I walked downstairs, the family room and it is not perfect, it is never, it’s only purpose when the housekeeper’s here. It’s not even perfect when I do it. And I am fine with that. Because my bedroom is the way I want it to be, find one space in your house that you are in control of and have that be the way you want it.

and have that be good enough, like at the end of the day, that is good enough. 

Tami: okay, we get stop here because everybody’s like, good enough. I’m going to have to work. I’m going to have to work on my good enough skills. That’s a hard one to work on, right? Yeah. Okay. So how long ago did you leave the classroom?

Like, tell me a little bit more, cause I need to know like, Almost 10 years for me. 

Lisa: Yeah. So it was eight and a half years. It was the day before winter break, 2011. And I had to stay after for some teacher meeting that was not necessary. It could have been some other time and my kids needed me at home and I couldn’t be at home.

And it was a serious thing I needed to be home for. The worst thing was after that teacher meeting, my administrator kept me back and proceeded to tell me what a bad teacher I am. And how bad I was at my job and I was 39 years old. And I finally was to the point where I was like, you know what? I’m not a bad teacher.

I am a good teacher. I’ve been doing this for 18 months to the detriment of everything else in my life, my house, my marriage, my kids, everything is gone. Second place to this school job. And you’re telling me that this school chop I’m not good at. And I thought, you know what? I’m going to wake up 10 years from now.

My kids are going to be raised. I will not have been the mother I wanted to be, and I will have done what given my whole life to this school job where this administrator thinks I’m not a good job. I thought, if I’m failing at teaching fine, somebody else can step in January and become the teacher.

And I’m going to be the mom. I want to be. Even if that means we go into more debt. One of the benefits of being gen X is we have credit. So I had credit cards and so I use them and I quit my job and I started organize three 65, January 1st of 2012. My house was in the worst shape it has ever been in. I was at the most disorganized I’ve ever been.

I was at the lowest point of my entire life. And I was like, for the rest of my life, the one thing I’m uniquely created to do is talk about organizing. I have no idea. How we’ll make money at this or what I will do. I just know that I could talk about organizing for the rest of my life and I will figure it out and I will become a better mom and I will be there for my 

Tami: kids.

That is incredible. I was, I loved teaching. I was great at it, but what I didn’t love was that they were asking me to do stuff that. Um, I thought it was unreasonable because I’m like, you don’t, I’m a human being, Because here’s the thing. I didn’t become a teacher until I was 33. So it was my second career.

So my principal, my first year, my principal, when I was a first year teacher kept asking me to do stuff. And I was like, get out of my room. I am busy trying to learn how to do this job. Quit asking me to do extra stuff. And she goes, but you’re a new teacher. And I was like, But I’m also a grown woman.

I’m not 23 

Lisa: out of my room. 

Tami: Go ask somebody who has a hard time saying no. And she was like, why? She’s like, I don’t know if you are the best teacher or the worst teacher. Like I am the person that has the best boundaries get out of my room. I need to figure out how to do this job. And I also learned the more self care I applied to any job I’m doing the better I do it.

So that brings me to my question, which is. How does self care affect your work as a speaker, as an organizer, as an adult educator, as a entrepreneur? Like how do you take care of yourself? So you can wear all the hats because you are running like an empire of organizing. I 

Lisa: love this question because, um, I don’t know.

I was raised with a lot of guilt and a lot of perfection, and so I never feel like I’m good enough. Or, uh, like often it’ll be like seven o’clock at night and I’ll be talking to my husband and I’ll say, all right, it’s seven o’clock at night. I could go work for more and more hour, but I really want to take a bath and work on my puzzle.

And he’s like, it’s seven o’clock at night. Go do the puzzle. I’m like, yeah, but I could work till eight. Like in my mind. And I also think it’s the American woman is like this, that we have work and then we have household and then we have parenting and then we’re allowed to have just this little, teeny, tiny bit of self care and like a bath counts that counts it’s okay.

For years, that was myself. It was one 15 minute bath. And now I’ve added like an hour of puzzling to that. And I feel so guilty. Doing a jigsaw puzzle on a Tuesday night. And now I’m to the point where I’m like, my kids are raised, my house is good enough. Yes. There are dishes. I really don’t care.

I’m going to go upstairs. I’m going to draw the bath. I’m going to do the puzzle. And I’m going to listen to a podcast or I’m going to watch TV, or I’m going to read a book. And 

Tami: I still today at the 

Lisa: age of 48 go, no, it’s okay. It’s five 30. You’re allowed to quit working. Like I have to tell myself I’m allowed to quit working.

I just think it’s something that we innately have in us. 

Tami: I don’t know, it’s innately. I think it might be very cultural. I think it might be. I think it’s like that thing where you’re like, here is your rattle and here is your responsibility to take care of other people. And I am also gen X. I just turned 50 in March.

And one of the things that, and I grew up in California, so I think there is actually cultural differences as we go through the States and through the ages. So my mom, uh, She very much said this to me. Don’t do what I did. And I was like, Oh yeah. Cause that doesn’t look that look like Sandy, that doesn’t look very fun.

I don’t want to eat that shit sandwich. I’m going to try not to. But, so it was interesting that she was like, don’t do what I did, but there was no rad, no roadmap to do it differently. Instantly feel like I’m rubbing up against. Culture, which I am 100% guilt-free self care. So in 2016 I interviewed a hundred women and I said, where’s it going?

where’s it not going? blah, blah, blah. What’s your big, deep, dark secret. And I super majority of people said it’s selfish. And I was like, girl knocked me over with a feather because yeah, it’s not in my mind. It’s not selfish because if my family of three is a stool. We had to take care of all three legs or the T or the stool falls down.

Lisa: Yeah. 

Tami: There’s nothing more annoying than that. The wobbly table, because one of the legs is all wonky. So if we, you guys have people in your family, if there’s a wonky leg on your table, everybody suffers. So it’s actually, here we go. Here’s the twist. It’s actually beneficial to your, the family that the mom Peggy taken care of and the dad peg is taken care of.

And the kids when everybody’s needs are yeah. Oh my God. Everyone’s needs are met and we’re stronger together. 

Lisa: Yeah, and my kids are 19 and 20 and I realized that a lot of, now I want to be an independent business owner and travel and do all that, these things. But I have conditioned my family that I’m a stay at home mom.

So part of it is the conditioning that I created because I love being a stay at home. Mom. I love it. I love creating our household and being the heart of the home and being available for all these things. But then as the work gets in the way I am primarily a stay at home mom and the work is secondary.

And now as the work is becoming equal or in some cases, the work is becoming more of a priority. It’s not received as well. 

Tami: I hear you. And I’m hopeful. I will say, I hear you. And I’m hopeful. Okay. So what did you learn about self care in the seventies and eighties from your folks in the Midwest?

Lisa: Interesting. So my family on both sides to have owned their own businesses all the way back. So my father was a salesman and then he, um, was a partner in his company. My mom owned her own company that she ran out of. The basement started, um, ended up in 26 States before she sold it. So I watched my mom was an entrepreneur and my parents would go to country clubs and my dad would play golf.

And my mom was in the junior league and she was part of a lot of, um, Organizations. And so 

Tami: I guess 

Lisa: for self care, my mom would spend money on her nails and on her hair and nice clothing. She always looked very put together. I guess that’s what I would see is self care, but my parents worked morning till night, either socially or, um, they didn’t just sit around the house and read a book.

Like there was no just sitting around, they were out doing stuff all of the time. And when I think of self care, I personally think of time where I get. To be alone with my thoughts. Cause I’m a thinker and I like to be visionary and I like to create things. And so I love, just listening podcasts and taking a walk or literally spending an hour, just rabbit trailing on the computer and getting off all new ideas.

I, that, to me, he is self care. I never see saw my parents doing that. 

Tami: Yeah, I, there was a pattern in our house, which was, you only really got to rest when you were sick. I swear. Every time something came through school, everyone in the family would get it. You take a few days off. Cause that could be your like, get better time.

You never got all the way better, but you got back up and you repeated the cycle. 

Lisa: That’s interesting. Cause my mom was always sick on Christmas day. Like for years in a row, like on Christmas, she would be on the couch while we were opening up all the presents that she had wrapped in different wrapping paper.

And there’s like presence of bum presence, but she was sick always at Christmas time. So made that was so that she could relax. Oh my gosh. That is amazing. 

Tami: Isn’t it? Bonkers? And. And I repeated that cycle. So I worked in politics for a decade before I became a teacher, but I was like the one thing I can say that there was a through line, there was two, three lines through my careers and that is, I want to make the world a better place for women and kids.

And I’d like to burn out, get better burnout, get better, get back. Oh, wow. And I find that met people who weren’t on that roller coaster of burnout. I was like, who are you guys in? What is the secret? And it came down to. Claiming downtime. And it came down to having really firm time boundaries around work.

And I was like, you can do that. What will you do with all your stuff spare time? And it turns out I like to lay in a hammock and read a book. I’ve read. I have it’s August 6th and I have read 85 books this year. 

Lisa: Congratulations. Thank you. 

Tami: I read and I just started keeping track last year, I read over 140 books last year, because I was like, Oh, when I’m not constantly doing for everyone else, I can fill my brain.

So nobody ever has to read a book again. I can just, that’s incredible. Exactly. Okay. So how so puzzles early ending time, bath girls speaking my language. What else do you do for self care? 

Lisa: I okay. So this is maybe not good for my body, but at the end of the day, cause I work for, even though I have a warehouse and in place I work from home and so I’ll get in the car and I drive.

Then I get Culver’s onion rings, which are the absolute best. And I listen to eighties, music really loud in the car. 

Tami: Okay. I just saw, I was looking at your Instagram stories today about the onion rings and I was like, what it makes these onion rings so special. What’s my gosh, 

Lisa: they’re hot. And they’re salty.

They’re hot and they make them, so you have you order them and then you pull ahead. So they come out piping hot. 

Tami: Okay, 

Lisa: they’re terrible for you physically, but I really need to find it, but it’s the drive. It’s the drive and the music and the again, alone in my car. And if the music is up too loud, my gods become so crystal clear it’s.

It’s unusual. 

Tami: I think it sounds like a meditation to be perfectly honest, but you do a transition. It sounds like you’re like, I work really hard at home during the day. And then I end my working day. So it’s like, you’re commuting. It’s the weird thing about commuting when you work at home. I’m in my laundry room right now.

So one of the things I started to do for my commute was my kids’ school is a little bit over a mile from our house. So I walk her to school and walk, take a walk around the Capitol. Cause I live near the Capitol in California and then I come home. I clock five miles on my feet and then I go to work.

Lisa: See, that one would be a healthier self care for me. I have started walking in the morning, so that’s good, but I have not eliminated the Culver’s. 

Tami: And you know what I say, go for it. I love me a barbecue potato chip and any, a French fry and those onion rings. Sound delicious. 

Lisa: My cholesterol numbers are still good.

so far so good. 

Tami: Exactly. I’m here for it. Okay. So where do you think your self care is going well? And what could use a little bit more attention? 

Lisa: So I think what’s going is that I have a lot of different self care that I’m doing now and things that could be a little bit different. Um, I think getting more firm with my shutdown time, like all my employees stop at four 30, but I don’t stop at four 30.

I usually go later into the day and I obviously work on the weekends. Um, so just finding a better stopping day or having days where I don’t do any work at all, which I don’t really do that yet. 


Tami: I have to say, no, I not. Here’s why? Because I can tell you’re super excited about your work. I work part time it’s because I have a little kid who’s like, Oh no, mama, you, we are doing a thing.

Like I’m constantly playing board games in the middle of the day. let’s not forget reading in the hammock, all that, but I tell you what. I wake up most days around four o’clock in the morning. And my brain’s like, so anyway, we’re going to get up and we’re going to do the thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lisa: All right. 

Tami: It’s exciting when you love your work, 

Lisa: it’s exciting. And as it’s growing, employing people and hiring more people and placing orders and impacting lives, like it is fun for me. It is really fun for me. I don’t feel like work is work hardly ever. And if it is, I’m like, we’re not doing that kind of anymore.

Like if there’s 

Tami: right. That. Oh, Katie it’s. At minute 30, we have a freezing. 

Lisa: I don’t think I’m dreading my back yet. 

Tami: Yep. You’re back. Yes. 

Lisa: Um, so if I find something is not working in my schedule or I see it on my calendar and I keep moving it further and further down, I will fulfill that obligation. And then I will.

Say we’re not doing that anymore. Like, whatever it is, I figure out what the thing is. And I say, my energy, isn’t good for that. So we’re not going to grow the company in that direction, or we’re not going to use that kind of an engagement to grow the brand. 

Tami: Okay. And layman’s language because you just used some serious business speak there, which is that thing.

Made me feel like poop and not want to do it. So I’m going to, I am going to finish my obligation cause I am a gal that falls through, but I’m also gonna make a note. I don’t ever need to say yes to that again. You guys, you all need to take note of every activity. So one of the things I do at the end of every year is I look at my calendar and I look back from January one all the way.

And I decide if I was going to put that thing on my calendar again, what I want to do it. I got to tell you, Lisa. I’ve been doing this for years. And I have very few things that I repeat because I also will be like, someone’s going to ask you to do this thing. This is what you’re going to, I write this in my calendar.

This is how you’re going to say no. P S you guys remember that? I have the November challenge where I teach you to how to say no. So you can say yes when it matters coming in November, um, What’s your morning routine. 

Lisa: Okay. So it’s, it was terrible, but because of the pandemic, all of our structures and our routines got exploded.

And I feel that the number one thing that my audience is struggling with is the fact that their structures and their routines are gone. And even though I work from home, mine 

Tami: got imploded 

Lisa: as well, because, I have other people in the house or my business plans got imploded. And so normally.

I would get up at seven 15, I would get ready. I would start work at eight. That was my morning routine. And the morning routine is really the only routine that you’re in control of that your family doesn’t derail as much. So proud of myself for the last time. Almost two weeks, I’ve been getting up at six 30.

And going for a walk and then getting ready and actually starting my day at eight 30 and no meetings until nine. 

Tami: I am loving it. 

Lisa: Oh my gosh. I am loving it so much. 

Tami: What’s the, one of the benefits that you can say about this new routine? 

Lisa: So before I would get up and I would listen to a podcast while I was getting ready, but I was so ready before my day.

Now, when I go walking at six 30, I have a friend who lives in the United Kingdom and she Vox has me on this app called Voxer. So I listened to her Vox. And then I talk back to her. We’re both business owners. And then I’ll start a podcast or I’ll listen to other boxers or all even like, watch my Instagram stories as I’m walking around my neighborhood.

And when I get home, I then relax and there’s one news app I like, and I read the news stories for the day and then I get in the shower. And by the time I get in the shower, it’s the same time I would have gotten in the shower, but I’ve already gotten so much thinking time done. It’s so much connection done and I love it.


Tami: it incredible. I am a proponent of the morning routine and two years ago I added in that walking piece because I had this story, Oh, I don’t have time. I only have this limited time to work loud, blah, blah. But I was like, but I did an experiment, Lisa. Cause my daughter was going to summer school.

It was a 20 minute walk away. So I would have a 20 minute there and a 20 minute back and then I had four hours to work and I’d have to pick her up or my husband would pick her up. And so I just decided I’m going to do it five days a week for six weeks and see what changes. And I dare to say people hashtag morning miles will change ever re thing, because I found like my imposter syndrome went away because I was like, what?

Now? It’s like, I know this from working with students with ADHD. If they exercise straight away in the morning, a lot of times they’re like, Oh my, I can get. To work now because I’ve already done the hard work in the body. So I was like, let me test it out for my kid and myself and see how it goes. And it changed everything.

And I was like, how am I? Like, how am I able to start a podcast now? How am I able to come home? Put my butt in the chair, work for four hours, get more done in those four hours than I would in a regular, like six to eight hour day. I was like clarity and focus comes with exercise. They really need a rebrand on the exercise.

It’s not, it’s like the secret to life. 

Lisa: Aye. Aye. Also it’s done two other things for me. One it’s helped me sleep better at night. Because I’m more tired. Cause literally I would only walk 3000 steps. It’s a day people sometimes only a thousand. It was pathetic. So now I’m getting closer to 10,000, which is great.

Think I feel better about myself, but also in order for me to do it in the morning and to do it without worrying about it, I have to write down exactly what I’m doing at work the next day. And I do it on an index card by hour. So when I get it done and as I’m doing my shower, I’m like, it’s okay. You’ve already played.

It’s okay. You’ve already planned your day. So when I have the coffee and I sit down and it’s. 30. 

Tami: I literally just bust through 

Lisa: my whole list now. And then at the end of the day, I make my list for the next day. I have a lot less waste time, a lot less. I’ll figure that out in the morning, you have to the night before I am just really enjoying it.

Tami: I also think I was at the right 

Lisa: phase of my business to do it as well. And the rate pays in my life to do it. And, climatically, I think a walk in the afternoon is going to be better in the fall as far as, um, temperature wise, but I think I’ll do something different and still have that morning routine time.

Tami: Yes. And I will just say, as a confirmed morning exerciser, some way I live in California, so I can literally walk 365 days a year. However, sometimes it’s too hot here. So I will just, literally, I will walk laps in my house. I live in an 1100 square foot house. I open all the doors and I walk around like rain man, like where to go.

Like I’m walking a path in my house and I have a tiny trampoline. Do you know, what’s exciting do to do I feel like a full on senior citizen, but I’m like, you know what, I am walking off, whatever I need to walk off. And like you, when I like, I go through all of my resistance and all of my avoidance while I’m on my walk, like all the stories I tell about, I don’t have time or this was then I just get it out in my head, on my walk.

And when I get home and in my chair, I’m totally ready to work. 

Lisa: Yep. 

Tami: And I like my family more, I’m not gonna lie. It’s a thing. And we, and so again, going back to the stool analogy, like I, every one of my house practices, self care, so like I’m on breakfast, my husband’s walking out the door and he’s like, I’ll be back.

I’m doing a walk and we work together to make it happen. And since we’re all at home, let’s try to work together to make it happen. Okay. So last two questions before we get to the speed round, the quickfire questions. So what else do you want people to know about you and where can people find you online?

Lisa: What else do I want people to know about me? Um, so I’m not a perfectionist. I’m funny. Um, you’ll feel better about yourself. If you listen to the organized three 65 podcasts, even if you don’t get organized because you’ll, your brain will start to absorb some of the organizing ideas. You don’t, I am not a Pinterest organizer.

I’m a functional organizer and it really is a self development podcast. More than a here’s the how to, of doing things. That’s more in the courses. And how can people find me? I have the organized three 65 podcasts organized three 60 five.com is the website. And I’m organized three 65 everywhere on social media.

If you actually want me, it’s the Instagram Insta stories. That’s where I personally am. 

Tami: I, and I have to say I’m a huge proponent of the stories. Um, I would love. I have to say this, I run coaching groups. And, uh, one of the weeks somebody we sent, brought up getting organized and we were all sitting there.

There’s 10 of us and we’re all sitting there talking and somebody brought you up. And I was like, Oh my God, I love her stuff. And blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. And so when your team reached out to say, Hey, would you like to interview Lisa for our new book? I was like, Hey, you guys, you know what happened?

So you have a little army of my people are like, shut up. You’re going to talk to Lisa from organize three 65. What is even happening? And I’m like, we’re doing the thing. We’re going to find out about her self care and they are thrilled. 

Lisa: Yay. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Okay. So quickfire, uh, one gen X or two, and next the, these, this was inspired by, uh, James Lipton’s questions from inside the actor’s studio.

So Lisa, are you ready for the quickfire challenge? Hope Okay. What is your Enneagram? 

Lisa: I’m a three. 

Tami: Do you wing four or wing two or do you know? 

Lisa: I’m not very detail oriented, so I don’t know for sure. But I don’t remember that part of it. 

Tami: Okay. But you’re like, I just, uh, you just you’re like I get shit done.

Okay. You’re an extrovert. I will, I’ve 

Lisa: heard him. 

Tami: Do you know your Myers-Briggs? 

Lisa: Yeah, I am an E N T J 

Tami: E N T J. Okay. I’m an inf J I knew you were an E and a J I could figure that out. My one 

Lisa: friend is like, you’re the most ENT, J E N TJ. There is. Cause I really like talking about different political issues and I’m like, but we need the solution.

She’s like, Lisa, we haven’t even defined the problem yet. We’re over here in defining the problem. I’m like, let me know when we need the solution. I already have ideas. 

Tami: Okay. So is strategic one of your strengths on the strengths 

Lisa: finder? 

Tami: Yes. People are like, how do you 

Lisa: do that? Dziedzic learner her 

Tami: strategic empathy and activator.

I’m like, just 

Lisa: pick, I don’t remember the other ones, but definitely strategic. Definitely learner can’t remember what the other options are. 

Tami: I don’t know. I’ll just tell you that we have a lot in common. Okay. So Gretchen Rubin 

Lisa: for tensioner. 

Tami: Hey Jen exer. So we do right. We’re like, you’re not the boss of me, dude.

Yes, me convince me. Okay. Your love language. 

Lisa: I’m words of affirmation. 

Tami: Me too, but what is your secondary and what is your spouses? Cause 

Lisa: I like my spouses is quality time. Okay. And my secondary 

Tami: would 

Lisa: probably be gifts and I’m looking at my strengths finder right now. Cause we have our whole team doing this.

Oh that’s. So though I am achiever learner significance, competition and focus. 

Tami: So good. 

Lisa: Does it say what? My secondary, Oh, my secondary is gifts. Yeah. I’m words of affirmation, secondary as gifts. 

Tami: Okay. What’s the most significant gift anyone’s ever given you? 

Lisa: Um, okay. So it’s something I bought myself.

Tami: Terrific. I love when people, um, hi, that’s good self care. You’re like, you don’t get mad. My knee. What is it? 

Lisa: Um, so it’s this ring. And it is a Sapphire custom-made ring by Greg’s uncle is a jeweler. So he actually, it’s a unique, one of a kind ring. Uh, my necklace isn’t I bought this while I was waiting for the ring to be done by the same jeweler.

Um, my dad always bought my mom jewelry for everything, and my husband does not do that. And I love bubbles. Um, in my family, there’s a lot of jewelry. My great grandfather was a purser on a ship. So we have all this amazing jewelry that’s been handed down. And when we achieved a significant goal in the business, I ordered the ring.

To commemorate. 

Tami: Why are you telling me all these things that I’m getting chills? So one of the things that I work with my clients on is, through smart goals, but I have made it less corporate and more about self care. And the last one is treat yourself like, how are you going to celebrate? And people struggle.

Sounds like I really need to connect with the gift people in the world to help me. Help others who don’t have that gift girl. I was in here this morning and I’m like, I’m going to buy a waterproof Bluetooth speaker for my shower to celebrate my last launch. Yes. And I’m going to end the color I want because I can, 

Lisa: Green was expensive. I think it was $1,400. And the reason I say that is because I spent $1,400 on my credit card every month. On stuff that I won’t have a year from now, but I will have this ring for the rest of my life. And I will remember that. And then when I get to, I wear these fake little diamond hoop things and it’s on my vision board.

When I achieve this next significant thing, I will have real diamond earrings. So I love jewelry. It’s going to last forever. I don’t wear fake jewelry. I wear a real jewelry. And so each of my things that I buy are significant and some yeah. Way and they’re expensive, but they’re not outrageous. 

Tami: But also one of the things I’m hearing you say and correct me if I wrong is this is important to me.

So I’m making it happen. I’m celebrating my accomplishments in a way that’s really the scratch that itch of that happening. So my secondary, uh, love language is. Um, acts of service. I changed all the names. It’s w it’s gold stars, uh, getting a, uh, in the seats. You know what I mean? It’s like I ran in, so I was trying to think of the real name.

I like it service. So like, for me, if you want, if 

Lisa: people want a housecleaning house cleaning the car, getting 

Tami: the car wash, getting a detail, the whole shebang, Somebody’s making you like the most delicious meal. Oh my God, all of that. So that’s where I’m like, Ooh, what are the services? When we can start interacting with people again?

What shall I do? Oh, I get monthly massages. I scheduled them again. I started 

Lisa: that. I started that this year. Oh, it’s heavenly. 

Tami: Okay. I get a massage every last Tuesday of every month, except during a pandemic. And I’ve done it for a decade and people are like, but how do you know you’re going to need a massage?

I’m like, Dude. I always need a massage. Yeah. Yeah. So I schedule my stuff out, like by the year haircuts eyebrows, 

Lisa: so organized Tammy 

Tami: it’s because I hate making decisions more than 

Lisa: once. 

Tami: I’m like, I don’t want to waste my decision making on whether or not I should get a bang trim. I know my hair grows.

I know how long it takes. I mean, I am cutting my own hair at this point. However, I also have myself on a schedule where I’m like, Oh, need a little bang trim. Okay. Okay. Now 

Lisa: here’s where Ohio can shine because, uh, I’m getting my nails done and my hair done. And I’m still getting my massages in California.

You’re still shut down. Sorry. But Ohio has so few benefits. I just have to no out of my house. No, for real. You 

Tami: also had the governor who straight out of the gate. Our governor did too, but we also have 40 mill, young people. Yeah. People and some of them 

Lisa: shut it down. 

Tami: Are entitled poops who are not following the rules.

Lisa: That’s in Ohio 

Tami: too, 

Lisa: unless we 

Tami: have those in place. And that really bothers me. But Lisa, you’re a prolific reader. I love watching you on good reads. I’m like, let me see all of the things that Lisa’s reading. So this is going to be, I know a challenge for you. Feel free to add more than one, but what was your favorite last book that you read?

Lisa: Right now I am listening to Jack Canfield’s success principles. I’m loving that. And I have bought the workbook to go with it. So I’m going to listen to it all the way through, and then I’m going to listen to it and do the workbook one chapter a week. Um, I am a learner like I’m a learner. I’m a questioner.

I always want to know more. no more. I love 

Tami: it. I love it. Okay. What is your favorite book? Of all time. 

Lisa: So favorite book of all time is generations by Neil, uh, Neil Strauss and William Howard, or it’s William Howe and Neil stress. Those are the words, I don’t know what the order is. It’s a thick book.

It is hard to find it is not on audible. Um, and it is all about how there are. Four different primary generation types and they repeat over and over again every 80 years. So each is a 20 year span and that they have similar care. So like it’s the best questioner. So the baby boomer generation is the same as the babies that are being born now.

So the kids that are zero to 20 are the same archetype as the 80 to 100 year olds right now. And it’s just fascinating to me that we keep repeating the same cycles over and over again, and these different archetypes of generations. 

Tami: But I love it because, so I recently read a Dale Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people.

And it was published in like the thirties and. Sure. There are a few like old fashioned turns of phrases and all that, but what it did, what it really illuminated is humans are humans are humans and humans act to this way. It’s like, In a way, you’re like, why don’t we, why don’t we pay closer attention so we can learn this stuff, but here we are.

Lisa: and also if you take that in any business you’re in or whatever, your unique gifting and calling is that you’re going to go into, you are going to experience all generations. Baby boomers, look at the world differently than gen X, then millennials than gen Z. And those are the four different generations.

And when you were talking about organizing your stuff, millennials, baby boomers are maximalists. Gen millennials are minimalists, gen X are nobody cares. And there’s 

Tami: like 19 of us anyway. 

Lisa: So whatever, we’ll just skip over them, but we are in between. And so not everybody looks at their stuff the exact same way.

That’s why there is no one right answer because we all experiencing. Things differently because baby boomers had to work so hard to earn that money. And things were really hard to get in the eighties. I mean, my parents didn’t do it, but some parents stood in line for their kids to get a cabbage patch doll.

And then you got the cabbage patch doll 

Tami: or the garbage pail kids 

Lisa: or any of those things that was so hard. The beanie babies that you could get from the McDonald’s drive through 

Tami: any of it. But 

Lisa: yes, and getting everything in the bag. 

Tami: But yes. 

Lisa: So now, like, it’s like, we can get it on Amazon. Like before this interview, I ordered something that’ll be here probably before I’m off of this interview.

So of course we’re like, we don’t need to hold onto stuff because it’s so easy to get it now. Um, so they’re, the ebbs and flows are generational. 

Tami: I know. And it’s. so fascinating. And so we, in my life coaching certification program, I actually went through UC Davis, which is, one of the major universities here in California and we had a generation’s talk.

And I will tell you that. Just so we’re clear, we all sat in our own generations and we could pick where we sat, but like all the gen X kids were at one table and all the boomers were at another because we annoyed the shit out of each other with how we move through the world. And I was like, yes, I’m totally not talking to you guys.

I’m talking to millennials and I’m talking to gen X people, anybody else who’s listening? And you like it. Cool. We must be an outlier for your people. But I was like, that’s, there’s reasons that. What we say and how we say it resonates with people because we have those through lines of our generation. And I’m going to get that book now.

So wait generations by last 

Lisa: week, Neil Strauss and William Howe or it’s Neil Howe and William Strauss. 

Tami: Okay. I will follow 

Lisa: and Strauss. 

Tami: Oh. And by the way, I love when people tell me that about stuff that I’ve never heard of. Cause I’m like, Oh, here we go. Okay. What’s your favorite personal development book?

Lisa: Pay for personal development book? Um, I like Brendon Burchard’s book. I just read it. I think it’s a great book with yellow letters on it. Something habits that one’s really good. There was another one, You just read, um,

And I was like the whole entire book. I was like, Oh my gosh, that book is just amazing. I’ll have to find it and get back to you. I’m not as good as like, um, so I’ve read the Bible five times. I could tell you everything that’s in the Bible, but I can’t tell you the chapter. And first I’m not good at that.

Tami: No, I hear you. And you’re also like, if I can look it up, why am I going to keep it in my brain 

Lisa: at night 

Tami: now I hear you. And so I also, I do follow you on, um, good reads. So I know that you 

Lisa: do a lot of they’re in 

Tami: there. you also do a lot of reading around productivity. And systems is my actual word of the year, this year, because I have come up against where I’m like, Oh, You, I find that I have to tune up my systems and then when you’re in business, you’re like, I didn’t even know I needed a system for that thing.

Apparently I need a system for people 

Lisa: for that too. Yeah. So like to tune up my people. Oh, you like a system have, if you run that, 

Tami: uh, hello, uh, 

Lisa: the house million million dollar habits by Brian Tracy. Amazing book million dollar habits by Brian, Tracy. 

Tami: I’m writing this on my desk because, um, I like to keep notes actually on my desk, because then I looked down, I’m like, why are there scribbles all over my desk?

And it reminds me, and then I cleaned them off as it goes. Okay. You already said that your favorite social media is Instagram stories. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Tami: Because you have people that help you with all of your stuff, 

Lisa: but that is where you are. 

Tami: What is it that you love about stories? And are you going to try reels?

Lisa: Okay. um, I’m not, I just saw the reels yesterday. Of course. I think they just came out yesterday. 

Tami: They did, and I have not, I started to try it and I was like, 

Lisa: okay, this is too much. I don’t even do the filters to people. Like, I’m just like, I’m just practical. You get what you get. I don’t really try to.

Sugar-coated, what I like 

Tami: Insta stories is because it’s just 

Lisa: my own self curated reality TV show was literally in my bath. Now this is so fun. I dry my bath. And then I prop up my phone on and I start with story number one, and they’ll just cascade right through. And like for 15 minutes, I get to watch all these people and see what my friends that don’t even know who I am are doing throughout their day.

I just find it so fascinating. And the other thing I love to do on Instastories is follow couples. So I follow Sarah Blakely of Spanx, but I also follow Jesse Itzler, which is her husband who has his own business as well. And I love watching them independently and I love watching them talk to each other on stories.

I just find it so fascinating. 

Tami: It’s funny as I do that too, I follow Jasmine star and her husband. And is that you’re seeing what you’re seeing the same event through different lenses. It’s I think it’s the industry. Interesting. And I also love. Um, that people have their guard down more and I’ve been able to connect with like big people.

I just air quoted big people. people who have a lot of followers, I’m going to tell you can become everyone’s best friend and Instagram 

Lisa: stories, Ken. And I even I’ll be like, Oh, should I have shared that? I’m like, ah, it’s gone in 24 hours. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 

Tami: Like if you want to see.

Some really bad hair. you’ll see some bad hair and Insta stories. Okay. Show, I know I read it like that, but I like to judge this one up with past present or future, meaning that you are like, Oh my God, I have this idea for this TV show and I want to hear your audience about it. Oh, 

Lisa: okay. So do 

Tami: TV, 

Lisa: Madam secretary, 110%.

I love that show with . 

Tami: Yes. I love it. 

Lisa: Do you want to know why? I love it? I love it because she is powerful yet feminine. She is quiet. She’s not like, yeah, I’ve got to do this. Like, she’s just like, we’ll bomb you then. And she goes, and you see her and her husband in her place. She’s like, Oh, should I not have taken the job as secretary of state?

She like, is this going to ruin our love life? 

Tami: And I’m just like, yes, like that is what 

Lisa: women are struggling with. Like, Oh, should I not own this company, Greg? Because and that’s how I feel. And yet she just looks amazingly great yet. She’s a good mom and she’s missing big events. Cause she’s like, Solving world peace yet she’s on the phone with them and I’m like, 

Tami: you 

Lisa: can’t, this is what a modern day woman.

It looks like to me. I know it’s fake, but anyway, I really love that show, 

Tami: but if we can see it, we can be it. yeah, I don’t want to be secretary of state, but I do not to be, I 

Lisa: want to have a connector for a woman 

Tami: and a powerful one. 

Lisa: Yes. Yes, a powerful feminine woman is what I want to be. And then my future TV show a picture like super nanny for your paper.

So like a wrapped RV that says the paper solution and I go into people’s houses and I helping get their paper in order. 

Tami: Do we have any TV? I know. I was like, I’m all in. 

Lisa: Yes. Yes. And I want to try, I mean, I just want to travel. I’m dying to travel. Even before the pandemic. Totally. But I’m 

Tami: also like, but if you’re driving an RV around the country doing this, 

Lisa: you can totally do it.

Tami: Have you, but have you started watching, um, it’s called hot mess on 

Lisa: HGTV? No, her Cassandra. 

Tami: Yes, of course. You know her, I was flipping through the channels that I saw. I was like the Clutterbuck lady from YouTube. She’s 

Lisa: great. She’s so great. Yeah. HGTV is doing that with her, 

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: So then I also go, do I want to do that or do I want to just self produce it?

I mean, obviously you could do Netflix, you could do Amazon prime or you could just become independent and put it on Roku, Or you 

Tami: could do it on YouTube and get sponsors. Oh, you could do it on Patrion 

Lisa: and people can. 

Tami: Okay. We’re just having, we’re having like ideas popping 

Lisa: out of our questioners together.

I don’t know what to tell you. This is going to happen. 

Tami: I’m like it totally can happen. Did you ever, okay. Do you watch the office? 

Lisa: Yes, I have. I don’t watch it religiously. 

Tami: Okay. What was a long way of saying Jenna Fisher? Pam on the office wrote a book called the actors way, the 

Lisa: actors, 

Tami: and, um, she basically writes.

A book on how to be an actor. And one of the things she says is don’t wait around for other people to choose you. Do your work every day, right? Every day, produce every day and put your shit out because we have the tools, I just saved you from having to read a really good book.

And you should totally do this show because it’s needed. 

Lisa: Yeah, it’s just it’s I know it’s just a timing thing. I know it’s going to happen. I just don’t know when or how, but I know it will happen. 

Tami: I just had this flash of a vision that I’ll share with you, your children. Okay. I can’t believe I said it like that, but the vision I had is that your children are going to help produce the show.

Lisa: I believe it. 

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: Like, they’ll get like the technical bat. 

Tami: They’ll do like the. Behind the scenes stuff. 

Lisa: My son just finished a two year degree in audio production and engineering.

Okay. I 

Tami: literally didn’t know that, but why did I get that hit 

Lisa: of like, they don’t know, but I love it and I’m writing it down. 

Tami: Okay. And when you start the show, you can come back and we can do this again. It can be like, Oh my God, this totally doing that. And 

Lisa: we don’t have, I just come to California. 

Tami: Yes.

I’ve been to California. 

Lisa: Yes. My parents used to have a place in Palm Springs. It was heavenly. Okay. No 

Tami: paradise. I’ve anyway, it’s funny because that’s in Southern California, I’m a Northern California native and I went to Palm Springs for the first time, three years ago for alt summit. And when we get to, and when the world gets back together, Hey, I’m re launching my 50th birthday by renting a house in Palm Springs with my friends, and I’m going to alt summit and it’s lovely there.

I will never go, 

Lisa: but it’s still lovely there. Oh, my 

Tami: God. Your folks had a place in Palm Springs. that’s fancy. 

Lisa: Yeah, they were fancy before they blew it all in their divorce. 

Tami: That was a very gen X thing for you to say.

Now I have to ask, how old were you when you 

Lisa: folks? 35, 35. 

Tami: You were, I’m sorry. You were 35. When your parents got divorced. 

Lisa: Yes. If you’d been in California, 

Tami: you’d have been 10. 

Lisa: It takes a while to do it in Ohio. 

Tami: Exactly. Also they had a lot at stake, but still okay. I am so excited about your future TV show. I can hardly stand it, 

Lisa: but I get Tammy.

Tami: This is the question that I always watched inside the actor’s studio for. I want to know what every celebrities. Favorite swear word is so Lisa Woodruff, what is your favorite swear word? 

Lisa: Shit.

Tami: Okay. 

Lisa: And so I have a funny story about that. 

Tami: We all just giggled. Okay. So tell me your funny story about yourself. 

Lisa: So my mom would say that swear word, and she would say it wasn’t a swear word, but we weren’t allowed to say it. We had to say rats. Okay. 

Tami: Rats reminds me of school, house rock. So I love it. I like your mom is just like, I’m laying down the law and this is how this works at our house.

I say this, and you say that And you all went right.

I want to bring back rats. Yeah. 

Lisa: it’s really a funny word, especially the way she would say she’d go, Oh,

Tami: your mom sounds like a hoot. 

Lisa: Oh my goodness gracious. She is. 

Tami: Oh my God. Lisa, I have so enjoyed having this chat. I CA I’m producing. I’m not a producer, but I wish I was. 

Lisa: And pretend 

Tami: we can totally pretend if you need any buddy, too. Um, run ideas around. I’m an idea machine, especially for other people. So we could get together on the offlines to talk about, uh, episode ideas and all that stuff for your new show that you’re going to produce.


Lisa: like a plan. I’ll let the team know. This is how they find out everything you said. What, 

Tami: where, and you’re like, I’m starting a TV show. It’s going to be great. We got to get an RV 

Lisa: for the fans. So hard to find right now cause of the pandemic. I know, 

Tami: but do you know how available they’re going to be after the pandemic?


Lisa: that right? I’ll take a used one. Yeah, 

Tami: exactly. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good luck on making the paper solution of reality TV show as well as a book and everyone go find lisa@organizethreesixtyfive.com. Find her on all the social channels and buy this book so you can create some papers solutions in your life.

And until next week, remember you matter too.


EP 66: Communication, Relationships and so much more with Dr. Gina Senarighi

EP 66: Communication, Relationships and so much more with Dr. Gina Senarighi

This week’s episode is all a conversation with someone I met online and thought – how often can I repost her content before it gets weird?

Dr. Gina Senarighi, PhD CPC is a therapist, coach, host of the Swoon podcast and author of Love More, Fight Less: Communications Skills Every Couple Needs.

We talked about how she *STOP THE PRESSES* has MET and trained with BRENE BROWN. I KNOW.

Gina is a shame resilience advocate, tends her money the way she does her garden (daily) and sets clear email boundaries.

We talk about envisioning the future you want, experimenting with action plans versus thinking and how the relationship we have with ourselves is the foundation of every other relationship.


Tami: Good morning. 

Gina: Good morning. Thank you for having me. 

Tami: Okay. 

Gina: I, we 

Tami: just had this whole conversation, as you all know, we do the pre we do the pregame and we decided to hit record finally. So Gina, can you tell my friends, who are you and what do you do in the world? 

Gina: I’m Gina center Regi. who am I? currently I am a mom of two.

Small children, a three year old and a one year old. And I live in Madison, Wisconsin, and I work with people all over the world. helping them build more intimate and deeply connected relationships. so sometimes that’s doing couples work and sometimes that’s doing, you know, solo coaching or. It used to be a lot of retreat and workshop leading, not in 2020, but doing a lot of work with people to help them nurture their relationship with themselves, which I think is what ultimately did bring me to you on Instagram is where I know I follow you the most closely because they’re your work with people and my work with people around like relating to themselves, trusting themselves, creating like.

Strong and healthy boundaries. Like all of that stuff just aligns so well, I was, I told you before we started recording that almost every morning, I’m like, Oh, there’s Tammy. And there’s like a thing that she says that’s wise, how often can I share content before my people are just like, you know, like, ah, maybe we should just work.

Tami: I’m just saying exactly this thing, because I’m always like, Oh, wait, I can’t like repost Gina every day, so I’ll try to do it like I like once a week and I’m like, Ooh, is that a lot? I hear you. Okay. So, so what do people come to you? 

Gina: For 

Tami: are they like they want help? Cause I, cause you’re you have a pocket cast called Swoon and that’s about sex.

So when you’re talking and just tell us more, tell us about your podcast. Tell us more about why people would say. Hey, Gina. I need some help. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: a lot 

Gina: of folks come stuff I like to work with the most. Let me tell you the stuff I like to work with the most is people show up and there, let’s say the relationship component, couples work.

They’re like. Goddammit. We are smart people. Who’s done a lot of self-work and somehow we keep ending up relating in these ways that are not serving us, like stuck in a conflict pattern or we’re like recreating her parents’ relationship or were more distant than we want to be. And like, we’ve tried quite a few things.

We’re like aware, we’ve read some books. We’d like, watch some things we’re thinking about it, but dang, we end up. In this spot where one or both of us isn’t really feeling fulfilled or connected or something like that. so I do a lot of like fine-tuning with people around like their communication skills, their like, like vulnerability resilience.

They’re like shame, resilience, they’re stories around, intimacy and meaningful connection. That kind of stuff. And that stuff’s beautiful. 

Tami: Cause I, it would be interesting. And somebody named Gina wrote a book. 

Gina: Oh yeah. Yeah. So I did. Yeah. I also, wrote a book. yeah, and that really kind of like outline and a lot of that stuff because the thing for me has been, you know, I was a therapist before I switched over to coaching and I therapy is super important, super duper important and all kinds of ways.

And it tends to be really healing focused. It comes out of like, a healthcare model. So it’s about illness and healing. And I just don’t have a lot of folks who are really. I mean, they’re unwell maybe, but it’s not like they’re unhealthy. they just are like really needing skills. And so, gosh, now I’m like on a tangent, but, so I kept finding that like I want, and part of it is also, I want people to have actionable steps that they’re looking at taking and trying out and experimenting with to create some change.

And so much of therapy tends to be really heady and thinking about reflecting and changing thought patterns. Totally. Again, important. I’m definitely still a part of coaching, but like, I just, I get impatient and most of my clients come to me at a point when they’re pretty impatient. They’re like, I am ready for this thing to shift.

I’m super frustrated with it or I see how it’s not serving me. I don’t want it anymore now what? Right. Like, they’re not like let’s sit and think about it too much. I want to have some action steps, even while I’m thinking about it. Right. 

Tami: Yeah. It’s interesting because I look at therapy as like swimming around in your trauma and I believe I’m a believer.

Like, you need to swim, you need to like backstroke, you need to get comfortable. You need to deal with stuff. But in my own, like I have been in and out of therapy since I was 10. yes, sexual abuse. That’s where it comes from. But what I found is, as I grew up, I was like, okay, so we’ve dealt with this part.

And what’s next. And so when I found coaching, I was like, Oh my God, it answers the question of what’s next. It helps you envision the future that you want. Now that you’ve like, but the solve on you, but the clean bandage on like your scabs getting healed, but so what do we do next? And so I love the idea and I think this.

I’m going to predict, I think there’s a big part of a lot of therapists going into the coach approach model 

Gina: where they’re like, I’ve got all the skills. yeah. And that’s some of why, you know, what helped me do this? It also helps me have really good boundaries in my work about, you know, there are certainly people who need like actual health care and medication management and sometimes hospitalization for mental health issues.

And that’s not what I. What I specialize in and having the background in it does help 

Tami: me be like, Oh, 

Gina: Hey, you need therapy in addition to coaching or first, and then come back. Right? Like we both are helpful for just about it, everyone. But sometimes there are plenty of reasons and traumas and crises in people’s lives that you want to, maybe have a more medical model there for support nothing wrong with that.

but anyway, having the training does help me kind of discern. who I can best serve and when, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, can you 

Tami: tell us more about your book? 

Gina: I love helping people have actionable steps. Like. Little tools and worksheets. I’m a big worksheet, like workbook person, myself.

I have, I mean that whole rainbow books behind me, people listening, dancing right in front of me. 

Tami: Yeah. 

Gina: All of those are, most of them are like full of like reflection, tools and things. And I really, I mean like you could, if you open them, you’ll see my written answers or my highlighted a lot of that I do personally.

and I, and because of that, I’ve generated a lot of content over the years that are like, Downloadable worksheets or things that I just send and share with my clients. And last fall, I had created all this stuff and I’ve had a lifelong goal of getting a book published by a big-name publisher. and so I’d like accumulated all these worksheets and workbooks over the over 10 years.

And I was about to have a baby and we were moving across the country. And my desktop on my computer was just full of all these little things. And I said, I. It’s coming up on 2020. I did not know what 20, 20, it would hold for all of us, but I was like, I’m either going to use it or lose it. I’m going to like, create like brand this stuff and make something out of it.

Or I’m going to, I can’t carry all this clutter into another decade. So I started clearing it off. And when I did that, I had three different publishers out of the blue, within a period of like a month, contact me and say, Hey. have you ever thought about writing a book and, you know, for people who believe about like that kind of like energetically creating space for something right.

To me, it really spoke to that idea, I got very clear about what I was going to do or not do. And, then I got some really clear feedback from the universe or from these publishing houses saying, do you want to do these things? And, two of them, weren’t a great fit, but penguin random house.

Said they wanted someone to create workbook about communication for all couples, like all kinds of diverse relationships. And that’s been a huge area of my specialization. And so I did it. and luckily for me, because I’ve been writing for so long between blogs and creating these worksheets, it was pretty well already written.

I mean, I got it at the first draft to them and within two months, which is pretty quick. 

Tami: That’s remarkable. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. I was contacted by a publisher twice this year, or like in 2020. it’s weird because 2020 feels like an eternity. So yes, it was earlier this year, but I ultimately decided I don’t want to write that kind of book.

I want to write this other kind of book. So worked with a, book coach, for a couple of months this summer. And I’ve got to start. So by the end of 2020, I’m like just, I just want to collect, cause I’ve been writing on a blog and doing stuff for also like a decade where I’m like, I’m pretty sure you have a lot to say on these 

Gina: topics.

Yeah. Go ahead. 

Tami: Right. Yeah. 

Gina: They didn’t love that because getting it out there is really the first step. You and I were talking earlier about getting our podcasts out there and, just like getting it out of thought formation onto the page or onto the desktop or whatever helps you then start to like, sift through right.

And say like, Oh, there’s a theme here. that either I knew about, or I haven’t quite put together, I mean, I just, before our call, I have these notes because I was putting together. Themes about some things that are starting to sync up, and what I’m seeing in my work over and over again. and I don’t have perfect language for it yet, but at least having this rough draft sketch note gives me something to work with.


Tami: Totally. I mean, this podcast was born out of conversations. I was having with my one on one clients over and I was like, every hour, I felt like I was having the same conversation. I was like, I have some education to do here. Let me just go ahead and share what people are saying and doing. And it’s because it’s not about one person and it’s about women.

Like that’s the through line here is like, cause I it’s weird. I haven’t had a male client yet. And so what I’m seeing is these themes repeated over and over. And I don’t know if you noticed, but in 2019 or 2016, I interviewed a hundred women about self care. Because I was like, if I’m going to put my whole coaching practice in this lane, I want to see if it’s a thing.

Ooh, it’s a thing. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Is that like, so of that a hundred women, I think 80 plus said that self care was selfish and I was like, shut up. Cause that’s not the story I tell myself. Because other people were like, no, it’s cool. I’m broken. it was like, Oh, that’s me. Right. But there was, and there were a handful of women who were like, it’s the best thing ever.

And I was like, but how did you get there? And they’re like, Oh, I lived in self care, selfish land. And then I got divorced and decided to be okay myself. 

Gina: Do people have to get 

Tami: divorced and they’re like, I don’t think so because 

Gina: yeah. Okay. tell me about this trend. Cause this is the one that these are the ones that I see I work with.

This is a lot of where I think our work really overlaps, because I didn’t work with a lot of those women coming out of. initial relationship, one longterm relationship or whatever, or a PA a long string of them who are like, fuck that. I am not doing that again. Helped me figure out how I don’t fall into that pattern again.

And, and the other time I see a lot of people is when a lot of women, most of my solo clients are women wanting to work on their relationship patterns, where their kids get to about four or five, six. and they’re suddenly like above water, a little bit with the parenting and are like, Whoa.

Again, self care seems selfish because I put my kids or my relationship or both. In front of my own like self identity, self care, all of that. And there’s this like super duper hate 

Tami: them right now. Yeah. We did do something to restore order in my house. I have a lot of clients who come here to me who are like, kids are back in school and I need to get a job.

The kids are back in school and I needed to get my confidence back so I can get it. And I’m like, I hear you. Yeah, I hear you. Because the zero to five, I call it a zero too. Full day school. So it’s really zero to first grade, like easy to go underwater because your people can really hurt themselves if you are not full on.

Gina: Totally. 

Tami: Yup. And. You can really resent your people 

Gina: who are not taking 

Tami: care of yourself and holding boundaries with everyone in the house. So I was come back to this analogy because there’s three members of my immediate family and I say, we’re a stool. And so there’s three legs. And if one of the stool legs is wonky or broken or pissed because she never gets her needs met, everyone suffers.

So it’s just like, so I like to try to turn it around, like, Like we were, we are as healthy as our 

Gina: weakest leg. 

Tami: So you got to shore up your everybody’s legs have to be short of equally so that we can all continue to work. 

Gina: Yes. Yeah. I, my quote and I think it’s actually somebody else’s quote, but I don’t know where it starts, where it started from, but just that the is that the relationship you have with yourself is the foundation for it.

Every other relationship you have. And, I see so many folks, I was just talking with a client the other day and we like, you know, she was like, she’s pregnant. And so she’s like taking special vitamins and making sure she gets enough sleep or really taking care of her body. And she was like, wait a minute, if I can do this now, because I’m just stating a human.

Why am I not doing this for myself outside of this context of being like the pregnancy will be a short period in my long history of life, I should be taking my vitamins and drinking my water and listening to my body other times too. Maybe, you know, just for myself, 

Tami: glad to witness your light bulb moment.

I know. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Interesting. Cause I. I don’t. I mean, it’s, I didn’t start with that selfish story. My story was like, if I don’t take care of myself, who’s going to do it. And so right. I mean, that’s, I feel like that’s a telling a story, but it’s also the realization of, I there’s only one me and there’s also a realization that I’m super self-aware in that, like, I’m an Enneagram one.

So when I’m not taking care of myself, I’m going to take everybody down around me. So it’s super comfortable for all of us involved. So just let me do what I need to do so that we can all live peacefully in the world. 

Gina: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. We’re finally, 

Gina: this is great. This is going to be a day long podcast.

Everyone listening? Yeah. Get a snack. 

Tami: Get your water. Gets what you need friends. Okay. So tell us last thing on the book for now. What’s it called? What is it out? 

Gina: Oh, right. It just came out, July 28th. So it’s. It’s fresh off the presses and it’s called love more fight, less communication workbook for every couple.

You can get it at Powells or your favorite indie bookstore, or really easy on Amazon. and if you love it, please leave me a 

Tami: VO. 

Gina: Cause that helps with all the algorithms of sharing it with more people. So, yeah. Yeah. I’m really proud of like reaching that goal and the fact that. I did it in a pandemic with two tiny children.

Feels like extra triple gold stars or something like that. 

Tami: Yes, I do know. I’m like, yeah, this year again, I can’t believe it’s only August and I can’t believe that it’s August already because everyone’s lived a hundred lifetimes in the last eight months. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: There you have it. Alright, Gina, what, how does here affect your work?

Gina: I mean, that one, it re it’s so much of what people come to me is like coming back to themselves like that, like surfacing I’m talking about after, their little ones grow. So, or like they leave the nest or after a marriage, right. People kind of come back to themselves and they’re like, Hey. I used to have hobbies that I really set aside, or like I used to be interested in these things.

I don’t even know what I’m interested in anymore, or like, you know, I used to be expressive in these ways. Who am I? Right. And a lot of self care, you know, I think people think about it like fitness and health care law, which is certainly a component of it. But it’s, I think about it more in this wider context of like, Monitoring and checking in with my self awareness, my spirit, my financial wellbeing, like my goals and my dreams.

Right. My creative expression, like all this much more holistic version of that, which is, you know, a lot sometimes I think they’re probably people listening right now who are like, Holy crap. I can’t imagine holding all of that and managing my daily life. 

Tami: You’re like, I just need to get more sleep. And I’m like, let’s start there.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And, Oh my God. Everything does feel better when you have more sleep. 

Gina: Totally does it totally does. 

Tami: It’s like meeting everybody where they are. 

Gina: Yeah. And as a coach, you know, the other, when you ask, like how does self care affect my work? Like I, Certainly this year. I set aside like some of my like movement practices, like my, I liked to go for a walk every day and get a certain number of steps in.

And, just being out in fresh air in, hopefully the sunlight breathing a little heavy, moving my body, looking around instead of just at my computer screen, simply those things once a day. It changes the Nate, the way I’m able to connect and listen and think through, and problem solve with my clients.

It helps me sleep better. It helps me be better with my kids, like, you know, so, those having those kinds of practices, I do better work when I take my vitamins. I do better work when I’m seeing my friends. I do better work when I’ve gotten in the garden. Right? Like all of those things just help me be cleaner and more clear and grounded in my work with people too.

So I don’t have like a real clear, measurable with that, but the census so clear to me. 

Tami: Okay. But that brings me to, what did you learn about growing up? Are you, I have no idea what generation I’m a gen X gal. 

Gina: And do I think I’m gen Z. I’m like right before millennial. what’s right before Mo like just sketch older than millennial.

Tami: believe that’s elder millennial. 

Gina: Okay. We’ll find out. I’m an elder millennial. Maybe there were not computers in my schools until I went into grad school. Okay. So 

Tami: you were born in the 

Gina: eighties, late 

Tami: seventies. Okay. I’m 1970. Okay. So you’re late. So yeah, you’re an elder millennial 

Gina: slash 

Tami: hella young gen exer.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. So what did you learn about self care growing 

Gina: up? I, A couple of things. I think I had parents who modeled self care in a couple of different ways. They were both, I was raised by two therapists, and, who worked with kids and adolescents. And so, I remember my dad coming home every day from work every single day.

And he would like arrive change into his running gear and be gone. And we just like, wouldn’t see dad for a half an hour, 45 minutes, you know? And that was just like his very regular ritual. My mom was really explicit with me about it. at some point in my life, I remember her saying to me, You know, something like, you know, part of why dad and I have been able to see they happily married is because we have our own friendships and interests that we take time for.

He goes fishing. I go for a weekend with my girlfriends. She has this women’s group that I think has been going for 40 something years where they meet like every other week, every third week or something like that. You know, and they’ve like moved around the country, all kinds of stuff, but they’ve stayed connected to their interests.

and that like being able to balance like autonomy and connection, it ends up fueling a lot of the conversations I have in my work. I mean, we were just talking about it, right? Like not totally losing yourself. Right. So that you’re like completely codependent or in meshed and also not being so completely independent that there’s no connection or no, like overlap.


Tami: autonomy, and sovereignty are two of my favorite words in the 

Gina: English language. 

Tami: Yeah. Yeah. From boundaries, freedom 

Gina: structure. 

Tami: Nexion interdependence, but not. Dependent 

Gina: what again? Yeah, I’m really, I feel really fortunate actually, when you sent that question along, it was like, Oh, I haven’t thought about it that way.

But they modeled, pretty effective self care. you know, and like anyone, I think they also are totally imperfect human beings who, didn’t sometimes either. Right. 

Tami: But there, but there’s, I feel like there’s a, there is a thread of intent and like your mom having that explicit conversation, like my mom, so I’m like almost a decade older.

So my, I think my parents were probably a decade older than yours. So my mom, her message to me was don’t do what I did. And I was like, 

Gina: Oh 

Tami: Yeah, because that doesn’t look attractive to me, but there was no, like, let me show you the way I was like, 

Gina: Oh yeah. 

Tami: So it’s that like, you hear it with your ears, but you’re like, but I’m not really sure what to do next.


Gina: I think it’s, two of the things that made me think a little bit about two other messages. I know I got very clearly from my mom. they waited a long time. They were, old, they’re always, they were always the oldest parents at all the things. and I actually followed in this, but my mom said, wait a long time and live a full life before you have kids.

And for me, you know, that there’s all kinds of things. You know, like privilege and access to birth control, that can be wrapped up in that. But like, but I was able to do that in my partner did too. Now we are old parents and there’s certainly a trade off of being in our forties and having a one year old.

Physically quite demanding. I know. Yeah, 

Tami: I’m 50 and my daughter’s nine. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. and the trade off is also if I had done it in my twenties, I wouldn’t have had as much for me. and certainly some of the things I think of observed in the mom groups I’m in, my twenties, I didn’t have as much self awareness and like emotional, Emotional maturity or practice with relationships is what I think I would say in practice with knowing myself.

and I see that get really stirred up with some of the other moms in the groups that I’m in, who just haven’t, it was much like the practice getting to know themselves, right? So they, they get more stirred up in some of that or some of the relationship stuff. We’re pretty grounded in our relationship stuff.

I’m pretty humble at this point. but we’re exhausted in a way that it’s different than when I was 23. If I had been up all night. 

Tami: Oh, absolutely. but it’s funny too, because my husband’s a little bit older than me. So we were, you know, we’re in our fifties. I’ll just say that, like by the time, so my brother had kids in his early twenties and I had kids in my early forties and he’s only three years old and he’s like, Oh my God, I can’t believe you do this when you’re so old that I was like, I can’t believe you did it when you were so young, 

Gina: because 

Tami: I’m like in my twenties and thirties, I was traveling and.

Drinking a lot and like moving all over the country and doing all of these things. And yeah, I had tons of energy, but I don’t know about you, but, by the time I was in my forties, I’m like, I’m not that interested in like, Going to bars and hanging out and be an outlier because I’m already tired. Right?

Gina: The adventure

Tami: I’m seeing the world in a very different light because my, we like to wake up the birds at our house. We like to get up really early. but, as a 50 year old lady, I’m already getting rolled up real early. 

Gina: So yeah. Yeah. Or 

Tami: you 

Gina: have it. Yeah. I don’t know how we got onto the parenting part, but thinking about that, like, Oh, I know.

Cause we were talking about, that was one of the pieces of advice that my mom gave me an another really clear one that she had seen, you know, she’s from a generation where she really saw a lot of people come to divorce for the first time in their family history. Right. Nobody had ever gotten divorced and and she had said, she said, make sure.

And she, my dad are still together and have they’re actually. Quite well connected. It’s amazing for how long they’ve been together, but they, she said never let yourself be completely dependent on another human for your wellbeing. And I think that came from like seeing her people in her family and also, people around her who really had their whole framework disrupted and were suddenly like really, reeling, just like.

Into the unknown when they did have to divorce for whatever reason, or did need to leave for maybe safety or something like, and again, there’s like a certain amount of, privilege and access of being able to do that for a lot of folks. And, it’s helpful to me think about like, what are my, like, Financial and like resource, frameworks for self care.

Right. And preserving intending to those things, you would asked him the questions about what some of my stuff, self care practices are. And of course there’s like I garden, I drink water. I take my vitamins Abe, but, In the last 10 years, 15 years, I feel really good about coming to a practice of tending my money in a way that’s wise and boundaried and intentional and conscious.

and I, you know, I used to be someone who would avoid that part and it really led to a lot of like financial insecurity and panic and frustration and fear and scarcity and, I tend to like my garden, like every day I just do a little, one thing here, a little, one thing here, pay attention. and I think about what do I want to plant?

And then what, how do I nurture whatever I’m a planting. just like my garden a little bit every day. And, it’s helped me create like a really beautiful baseline for myself and my family. 

Tami: So how, what methods did you use to learn about the tending the money garden? It’s funny. I have a book called tending the money garden.

Oh, you do 

Gina: love that. I saw a talk at a wanderlust speakeasy where Kate Northrup used that metaphor and really talked about like perceiving bills as gratitude for gifts already received. And I am a huge gardener. And so I thought like, gosh, if I want, if I’m wanting this thing to grow, I turn to it everyday.

If I want my kids to grow, I turned to them every day. if I want my money to grow or if I want it to be sustainable, I can’t just ignore it and not. Pay attention to it. And I, you know, I can’t try and like binge and purge kind of with it. I need to have a sustainable practice of showing up for it, with the kind of energy I want.

And so, so big stuff, but I like, you know, each day I just like check my balances and move some stuff around if I need to. And. I pay a little closer attention to there’s a lot of stuff I just set and forget in wise ways too. Like I, I round up all my bills, to the next 25 bucks. Again, this I can do because I’ve built up some savings, but what that meant last year, my partner lost his job.

And just from rounding up our cell phone bill and our electric bill by 2055 or $7 or whatever it is, it accrued. You know, a balance, a credit balance, so that it floated us through a couple of months that we didn’t just didn’t have to pay those bills, which was a huge relief. Right. And I was so grateful.

Oh, I, because we had the score thought we did this thing that was within our means, but really intentional 

Tami: ease. And it was also. I’m going to say relatively painless because you’re like, you did a little bit at a time and it’s like training for a marathon. You didn’t run out, run 26 miles. You’re like I put my shoes on and then I went to the block down the block.

It’s funny. My, So I had a milestone birthday this year and I am kind of a money is a funny thing for me. I’m still, I’m a saver and I’m an accumulator, but then I’m like, now I’m kind of stuck. So my thing, but this year, so my word of the year is system. So I’m putting systems in place to make everything in my life, work better, like everything in my life, in every aspect.

But also I do a 20 for 20 lists. I don’t know if you listened to the happier in Hollywood. And the happier podcast with Gretchen Rubin and her sister Elizabeth Craft, and Sarah 

Gina: Fe, I’m writing it down. 

Tami: Those are two great podcasts, but one of the things I do like a 24 20 lists and an 18 for 18. So I took my 20 for 20 lists and I wrote 20 financial things I wanted to do this year.

Like hire a bookkeeper, read 12 books about money, automate my retirement savings and all these things that were like. Like, it’s building that tending habit in another aspect of my 

Gina: life. Cause 

Tami: like I have 55, five minute things I do for everything else. Why not have, you know, add a few things for money.

Gina: And it’s not opponent. A lot of folks think about with, within the realm of self care. but I really like to look at like, what are my resources, right? And one of them is a financial resource in the world that we’re living in right now. There’s also time. Physical energy, emotional energy. Really, these are all my resources, but if I don’t check in with those account balances on the regular, I do, I have a tendency and I’ve seen this in plenty of my clients to like overspend in some or like hoard in others.

Right. Of like, I’m not gonna to, you know, because I’m getting reactive if I’m not aware. Right. Absolutely. 

Tami: And it’s interesting because how I look at self care or one way to look at it is. What drains your energy and nothing drains your energy more than something that you’re avoiding or something that you’re sweeping under the rug or something.

That’s kind of running you instead of you running it. So if you’re not running your calendar, it’s running you. If you’re not running your money, it’s running you. If you’re not one of your sleep friends, it’s running you 

Gina: like a coaching session for you. I’m just going to keep taking notes. 

Tami: But this is a thing like.

I think another place where our work really, overlaps is in that piece of like, I would say that my biggest self care, apifany lesson, all of it is learning about self-compassion. Okay. And I, and because I feel like for me, that drives everything. Yeah, I’m being kind to myself and I’m realizing that I’m in perfect and you’re imperfect and it’s okay.

And we’re all in this together and we’re paying attention to we’re doing that thing, which is judging and criticizing and comparing. once I brought that into my life, it was like, God, this, everything so much easier. And peaceful. I can sleep better. I can get along with people better. 

Gina: Yeah. You’re one of your wise questions was where is your self care going?

I think, and I had written it, I’m coming to a place of shame, resilience and, really not, allowing shame to take up a lot of space in my life anymore specific. The one that stood out specifically the 

Tami: part where we’re going to talk about Bernie Brown, cause I’ve talked about her in every episode at 

Gina: some point.

Tami: All right. Great. 

Gina: so I did a big training with her, a few, a number of years ago now. And it was the life. I mean, because Darren greatly was life changing for me when I read it. And her Ted talks or maybe the other way around. And then I was like, I need to go train with this woman. So I went to Texas to train with her and it changed.

Tami: Whoa. Did you actually get this training directly with Bernay like you were talking 

Gina: to them? Yeah,

my goodness. conversation about probiotics over dinner at one point, I mean, you know, like, I wouldn’t say we’re best friends, but we definitely have interacted in her teaching. I was really moved by her and her team’s, integrity, like the things they are telling everybody to try and do. I would see them enacting in front of everyone, but 

Tami: also like 

Gina: you could overhear them in the hallway, having conversations, using the things they were suggesting we all use.

And that to me was such, it was profound as far as like seeing the teachers. Really walking their talk. Right. And having a really high integrity model. I, so I have a very high respect for her and her team. 

Tami: Okay. It’s so funny. 

Gina: I, 

Tami: you meet a lot of people online highlight you and then you meet them in person.

And then they’re like, 

Gina: yeah, 

Tami: you’re just like, you are online, but better. How is that even happening? That happens to me when I go places. And I went to all summit a couple of years ago and I sat next to somebody and she goes, You’re so quietly confident. Ooh. Let’s just sit by each other. I was like, okay.

I was like, I don’t have anybody to be, but me that’s it. I don’t know what to tell you. Okay. So you met Renee. Can you explain that? So I know it’s shame, resilience says, but tell us all Gina, when you speak those words, what does that mean? 

Gina: Yeah, I think, I mean, for a lot of folks they’ll use the term like self-critic or like inner gremlins or like how I beat myself up a lot of that.

Yeah, like is shame. It’s the stuff that tells you to keep small or keep quiet or don’t like, but, shame is like the voice that says this thing in you is so messed up. Anyone ever found out they would leave you that, you know, like nobody would want to be around someone like this. It’s like so gross and so 

Tami: ugly bits, all the things seen people.

Gina: Totally. And the more shame we have, I mean, there’s like, Direct correlations between like wellness, on a number, in a number areas in life and the amount of shame we’re carrying around. Right. And the amount of like internalized, like I believe that message. I got it from someone directly or indirectly, and I truly believe.

This thing about me is so yucky. Nobody would love me if they figured it out. And so it leads us to like, live this like life in the shadows where we sneak foods for food shame as big, or we like sneak videos are guilty pleasures. I’m never going to tell anyone I watch reality TV because that would be so embarrassing or, We would like sneak and hide and we do all these things to like, keep it from coming out into the light.

I work a lot with people around sexuality. There’s a ton of sexual shame saying like, Oh, you’re weird because you have an orgasm this way. Something’s wrong with you because you fantasize about this thing, right? Like, and the more we can come to a place where we, so shame resilience is all about discerning environments, where that we can be vulnerable with somebody like someone’s trustworthy enough to share like, this is this thing I’m working on.

I’m thinking about. And the person or the container is safe enough to say like, 

Tami: Hey, bud. 

Gina: okay. You got a thing, you got a thing. Let’s look at how we work on that thing, right? so it’s not judging it. It’s not shutting it down. It’s also not totally fanning the flames. Right. It’s we want to be held with like a, 

Tami: huh?

Okay. Let’s look at that. 

Gina: Right. Like just purely gentle holding right there. Like that’s what true compassion is. It’s like 

Tami: not judgment. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And just 

Gina: enough accountability where if I did. do something that was harmful, you know, that container’s going to say like, Hey bud, leave me not that choice again, but it’s not like you are, is that going to repeat the shame and say, you’re, something’s wrong with you?

You’re terrible. Put that away. Yuck. but it’s gonna be 

Tami: like, okay, we’re going to learn from this. 

Gina: We’re going to not repeat this pattern. So shame resilience is kind of like building up systems in your life where you have that discernment to know, like, is this a safe enough place for me to show up in these ways?

and where I can like deal with that, even showing some of my Shamie bits to myself, right? Like, can I name them and own them that they’re there. and then, Kind of getting to a place of deciding what to do with them. Because like I said, if we’re just like living shame, we’re often like living out of reactivity and we just do things on autopilot.

Bernay talks about, you know, fi like losing time is one of the things that like, suddenly I’ve lost. Three hours on Facebook or I’ve lost time and I’m in a pantry eating or lost time, and I’ve been watching porn for days, or, you know, like, Whoa, This like time-suck happened. I don’t even know how I got here, but I know I said something mean, or I know, you know, like, and the more we can get into a place of.

Owning things and building shame, resilience, the less we’re going to get into that time, suck and end up with like the double shame of trying to clean up wherever we ended up. Right. Like, Oh, I drank a time and I barfed all over and I said something nasty or whatever. Like, Ooh, that’s a lot of cleanup literal and figurative.

Is it that I should never drink for some people? Yeah. 

Tami: For 

Gina: plenty of people yet, or is it that like, I want to be more in a place of choice when I interact with drinking. Right? Or like, what did it, what led me to that place of choosing a lot of drinking? 

Tami: Let me just check that out. 

Gina: Is this making sense?

I don’t know if I’m being really clear about it. 

Tami: Hi, I’m over here. Like, 

Gina: yeah. And 

Tami: for 

Gina: me, one of the ones I noticed is like my body shame. That’s actually the one I wrote about in response to here. There’s so many messages about body shame. And especially for women in our culture of like, your body should look like this or do this thing.

And if it doesn’t look like this or do this thing, there’s something wrong and you got to fix it. It’s broken. You know, you’re not taking care of yourself, whatever. And for me, it’s been huge to come to a place of like, this is my body. I’m not going to spend a lot of time, like hating it because I’ve only got this one chance with it and hating it.

Doesn’t actually do me any good shame, 

Tami: hating your body. Doesn’t make it change a, a. Stereotypical like, 

Gina: right. 

Tami: Do you know Anna guest jelly of, curvy yoga? No. 

Gina: I know curvy yoga. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. Anna is the creator of curvy yoga, and she wrote a book called creatively Kirby yoga. She has her studio she’s in Portland.

Now. She was in Nashville for a long time, but she and her work. And then her, the work of Rosie Molinari who wrote the book. Beautiful. You, they really helped me flip the script on the body shame too. And I love the idea, Anna and I talked about, I think in episode 13, about the idea of. Body neutrality.

So between right, you don’t have to run from one polar and to the other, you can find this place of curiosity and gratitude for what your body is doing the day in this moment. Yeah. Oh my God. I’m still so excited that you met Bernie. I’m looking 

Gina: at all of her books, other, you know, the people who helped me come do a lot of really good work around my own body.

Really? For me, it was in Portland. You must know Dana and Hillary from be nourished. I’m guessing 

Tami: they followed their work. Yes. 

Gina: Okay. You will have them on it sometime and you’re going to love it. Cause I think you all need to be buds. but they have a whole program to help, like working through body trust and it’s so.

Tami: Intuitive eating thread. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And do you know w Cole? 

Gina: Yes. Yeah. Okay. I mean, not personally, but yes. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, coming to that, it’s like, it’s so empowering. not to feel terrible about my body and also to be like, I don’t have to, I’m not like forced to like, love it all the time either.

Right. Like I can just be, like you said, neutral. caring. Right. Compassionate. Right. And accepting more than anything. 

Tami: I feel like, self-acceptance is my life’s work. Like if I had to like, like put a stake in some territory of like, really, what is my, what am I doing here in the world? It’s like, that obviously benefits me.

But let me tell you if you’re sitting next to somebody that has a. That self acceptance piece. I think that’s the quiet, that’s where the quiet confidence comes from because like your anxiety isn’t like shooting out of every poor getting on everyone’s stuff. Cause you’re kind of contained of like, I’m within these limits here.

Gina: My stake is in a shame Slayer, so it’s probably right next door to yours. And, I am remembering when I had my wedding, we’re queer and I had this big. Queer wedding, and have small handful of folks from my relatively  hometown, came out and it was their first exposure to a lot of, very colorful, queer culture.

And I remember sitting down with one of my dad’s best buds, longtime mentor. He would probably not identify himself as conservative, but he certainly was in this group. And I just was like, Hey, how’s it going? And he said, uncle Bob, he said, you know, do you know this place is fucking zoo, but it is an awesome fucking zoo.

And he said that he had never seen so many people so comfortable in their own skin in one place. And I was, you know, it’s not completely inherent in queerness. But for a lot of the people I have chosen to surround myself with, and especially the folks who have worked with their own issues around sexuality and internalized depression, there is this like inner life.

Like I’m good with myself. I’m good with myself. that makes it easier than. For other people, right? Like there’s like a ripple effect of like, Oh, you can be good to yourself. Cause we’re all good here. We’re not, we don’t do X do that. It’s I don’t do the judging stuff. 

Tami: It’s like, you can see, you gotta be able to see it to be it because a lot of people like, wait, that’s an option.

Yeah. Like not hating your body’s an option. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: I didn’t know that. I didn’t know we were doing that. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. And I do want to create that. I want to create a world where everyone can lean into that and lean into where we’re not there yet, but I do want to create the world where. Women, all women, all, everyone is safe and they’re just, I’m here with 

Gina: that.

Tami: Yeah. Okay. So 

Gina: what 

Tami: do you think in terms of your self care? What could use more attention at this point? 

Gina: I think, the. There are ways that the pandemic has been great for my self care. And I miss community. I miss hugging my friends. I miss like the ease of meeting with people in person. And we have been following a pretty strict.

Social distancing guideline. And I feel really good about that to protect my health and my family’s health and other people’s health. And also it, I it’s really hard. we’ve been maintaining friendships online and that is lovely, but I miss people. I miss people and that like sense of belonging and big community celebrations and outdoor music festivals and hugging, like all of that, like relaxed.

People relaxed people, stuff. And I’m trusting that things will work themselves out, that we can get back to something like that again, in my lifetime. But right now I miss it. I miss it. There’s a hole there. Yeah. 

Tami: I’m glad that you said that I had a conversation with the woman who used to co I was like, so I’m just going to call her.

She still cuts my hair, even though she has touch my head in like eight months, I’m hacking away at my own hair, but she lives around the corner from me. And I was sitting on the porch yesterday and she walked by and I was like, how are you doing? She’s like, I’m doing great. I’m on unemployment. Like it’s okay.

Everything’s fine. I’m really, I’m healthy. I’m safe. I’m glad everyone has to have too. I said, great. And then she said, I’m S w we had this moment of agreement where we’re like, are we ever going to go inside with people again? And I was like, I don’t know, but we are lucky because we live in California and we can be outside 365 days a year.

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: And so I’m like 

Gina: dreading the winter here. I mean, I really am dreading it. We have been putting a lot of systems in place to try and sort out, how will we survive winter here? Right. And some of it for us is going to be embracing outdoor sports and outdoor activities more than we ever have.

Yep. And some of it is we expanded our bubble, partially for childcare, so that we’ve got another family. but that also means another home that like, we can go. So Ray and I are going to go work there some days with the other, one of their partners and the kids are all going to be at this house. And then our kids get a different house to plan.

Otherwise our house. Yeah. It would feel very small, very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: So what, tell me about it, your mornings. 

Gina: I have two tiny children, so my mornings start promptly at 5:55 AM when the eldest wakes up and says, right. And then the other one, it’s usually six. So five, six and eight. and so there, you know, like I am, for me, I am not an early riser.

I will sleep until they get me up. for me, my like solo time comes after bedtime at night, but so we’re up and, you know, it’s both sort of chaotic and it’s also like that’s my grounding for the day is I get, I do breakfast with my kids in the morning. We’ve lately been reading books and doing puzzles kind of while breakfast, snacking is going on.

And that feels really good because it’s kept us more grounded and focused and present at the table. we all do vitamins and water with our breakfast, and that is part of my self care ritual. And then once, Our little childcare system is going. I can check email and start my, I like to clear out all of my admin stuff as much as I can first thing in the morning.

And then I don’t check email all throughout the day. That’s a really important boundary for me that I had to create during this pandemic time, because, It’s been so hard for me to find a set focus, time to really respond thoughtfully that I create it. And then, I have an outgoing message that’s like set up in order to like, maintain that boundary of like, I just, I can’t give you my full attention.

Until the next cycle of email time comes back up. 

Tami: and how have people responded to that? 

Gina: I have had, you know, the only thing I’ve had is, good, really positive feedback. Like other professionals saying, I want to steal your message and just cut and paste it into my inbox. And I say, go for it. if anybody wants it, they can email gina@hygiene.com and you will get it right back immediately.

Tami: It’s so funny. Like I, I had a phone thing, so I need to redo mine, but I put my office hours like, 

Gina: and you can expect to hear back from me 


Tami: like two days. Like it’s either going to be two minutes, two days or never. I don’t know what to tell you, but that’s how I roll. but when I was a teacher, so I don’t know, I spent a decade as a classroom teacher.

And so I had office hours where I was like, I answered email. At this time, and this time, if you send an email at some other time, I’m not going to get back to 

Gina: you. Yeah. 

Tami: Cause in my mind, I’m like, no, if we’re, if you’re having an emergency, the last thing you want to do is email someone. 

Gina: Yeah.

Tami: That email is not for emergencies. And so I’m going to, I’m going to respond thoughtfully after 30 minutes after the bell. And then I’m going to respond thoughtfully at 6:00 PM. Because perhaps you were in a meeting at three o’clock and you and or your kid forgot their thing. And this is the first time you’re seeing them as at six.

Gina: Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: And I will check it before work to see if anything fell apart overnight, but, and people are like, but how do people respond? And like, they were great. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: They were really happy. They weren’t like, am I not? I was like, I just gave them a really clear container of when it happened.

Yeah, and I never put it on my phone. I just, this is where I 

Gina: do it. I like to have, I mean, I have all of the people who. I am comfortable with them approaching me for emergencies, my clients, my family, my friends, they know my phone number. They will text or call if they need me immediately. Right.

And the truth is my life is built. And I think yours is probably this way too, where there are. You know, an hour and a half at a time when I’m in session with someone, when I’m giving somebody else my full presence and my family all knows. You know, even if you text me, I may not get it for 45 minutes to an hour until I’m done with this conversation.

And, I’ve given that sometimes to clients as an example. Cause I’ve had some folks say like, Oh, I want, you know, my expectation is that my partner is available to me immediately over texts all the time. And, you know, I, you know, we can have a good conversation then about like, huh? how does that give them an opportunity to be available to other people and build other connections or be present to their work or to their book or their jog or whatever.

Tami: Right. I in, I’m having judgy face. I do that sometimes. Cause I’m thinking, but as I’m like, I don’t want there to be a sense of urgency on something that isn’t truly urgent because I already live in kind of a, a state of that naturally that I’m like, please don’t throw gasoline on my internal fire.

Like we just need to like ramp it back down where it belongs for my comfort. Yeah. Okay. So what else should people know about you and where can people find you online? 

Gina: the, let me think, what else should folks know? I feel like we’ve covered most of the big stuff that I really like working with love and relationships and communication and shame.

Big two good one. Yeah. They could know that I’m a gardener and I have a tiny children, and then I live in the Midwest. Now I do all my work online and tell, hopefully sometime soon we can. Meet in person. I am trying to figure out a way to do couple the intensives, where it would be very small group, maybe two or four people at didn’t go and we could meet in person.

I think there’s gotta be a way to do that outdoors. I just need to work through the like logistics and comfort and risk assessment with people. And then they can find me on my podcast, phone or online at  dot com. and then my practice that is more focused on nontraditional relationships is alt relationships.com or non-monogamous dot com.

They can find me over there 

Tami: too. I like all your you’re, like I’ve got all the ways you can reach me. 

Gina: Yeah. Come find me. 

Tami: Yeah. I mean, so good. Okay. So did you ever watch inside the actor’s studio? I did not, 

Gina: but how long do I have on the quickfire? 

Tami: Okay. As long as you want, 


Tami: can make this quick fire, but it ends up being like soup.

It’s like the slowest burn ever. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Okay, Gina, what 

Gina: does it give you? Quick answers. Okay. I got them. 

Tami: and I’m going to talk your ear off, cause that’s what I do because apparently I’m started for company, Gina, what’s your Enneagram? 

Gina: I am a strong eight with a seven wing. 

Tami: You know, I love that because, and if you, if anybody knows, I struggled with the eights because Ooh, There is not a lot of healthy eights in the world.

There’s some, like, I believe the word megalomaniac came out about the eights. 

Gina: Like 

Tami: they’re strong, they’re undeniable, but man, a healthy eight woo and a healthy 

Gina: woman. I mean, it’s really clear when my stuff is out of balance and the eight, like I just dig in and I’m going to be in control and in charge of everything.

And no one, I was at this retreat this weekend and I got from the instructor. That was good, but she was like, you know, you’re good at setting boundaries. And then there’s a fine line to where it can feel like an energetic, like. Slamming the door in my face or something like that. And I was like, Oh, that’s the eight right there.

you know, it comes out for sure. Yes. It took me a long time to claim that eight because it also there’s a lot of like yucky stereotypes and stories about eight, because we don’t have enough models of what it can look like when that director is. Has is in balance, right, 

Tami: right. Especially of they’re culturally female eight.

So if you guys forgot eights or leaders, So Kamala Harris right now. Hi, I don’t know she’s an eight, but just using her as an example 

Gina: of that way. 

Tami: but, the how culture, how people that are swimming in our culture deal with strong female leaders is we need to take her down like a crab, trying to crawl out of a bucket.

We’re going to grab her leg and yank her back in the bucket. 

Gina: I’m like, 

Tami: We could do this differently 

Gina: friends. Yeah. It 

Tami: would all be better served with more leadership. 

Gina: Yeah. And I think especially for a women, I think we all get a lot of messaging about don’t be too much. I think that like in this eight role, we’re the ball Buster.

We’re like, we’re taking up too much space. We’re bossy, right? Like there’s a lot of, Terrible stereotypes. And especially women of color who are an eight, right? Like, just like the angry black woman, all of that can come out. when a woman is purely acting assertively. Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. It’s funny. I, I’m a one, but I thought for sure, I was an eight and then I talked to my therapist and she was like, 

Gina: Let’s look at that. 

Tami: Yeah. And I was like, but she’s like, look, you’ve been telling me your secrets all these years. I’m just going to let you know. It’s like, and then I loved it. Like. Like the secrets part of the one I was like, Oh, you’re right. She’s like, 

Gina: yeah. Okay. 

Tami: Introvert, 

Gina: extrovert. UNFP. But the older I get, the more my eye is getting cleared up, you know, like I feel like it’s shifted.

I really do. 

Tami: And I will just add I’m an inf J. And I kind of wiggled between the J and the P boy, having a little kid makes that, I think a way up it’s because you’re like, Oh, hi, little energy vampires. Would you like all of me? And they’re like, yes, 

Gina: right now, 

Tami: do you have extra? And you’re like, no, they’re like, that’s okay.

I’m going to take it all. Yeah. Okay. So on the four tendencies from my girl, Gretchen Rubin, so upholder, questioner, obliger, 

Gina: rebel.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yep. I mean, and it fits with everything that I do, right. Like if that’s are my job in this world. Absolutely. 

Tami: and I have to say, and as I’ve gotten more. More healthy. My questions go less from you think, are you sure I have to do that more too? Like how could we make this work? My questions have gotten more refined.

Gina: Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: Love language, 

Gina: huge advocate for my love language. because it gets like, Overlooked, I think by a lot of people, but I met giant acts of service person. If you like change the oil in the car and I don’t even have to think about it. Holy shit. Do I love that? Or like my partner does the dishes every day and has now for 11 plus years, I haven’t touched a dish.

It’s like so good for me, right? Yeah. That like, how could you make your life easier? What’s your secondary. you know, 

Tami: the 

Gina: secondary one, maybe quality time, but, it kind of fluctuates between quality time. And words of affirmation. 

Tami: Okay. and my number one is words, but very closely, like they’re basically married of acts of service.

And my spouse is the same, but he is acts of service and, word second. And once I found that out, I was like, Oh my God, we never have to buy another gift. We never, it was like, Oh, I can let all these. 

Gina: Neither of us are gifts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Tami: The reason I started a podcast, what’s your favorite last book you’ve read?

Gina: I’m still in the middle of it, but the Greenwich, It’s really gorgeous. I’ve been coming back to my own like spiritual practices around like witchcraft and intuition and stuff. And, there’s a particular author. I’m looking behind me to see if I even have it. Cause I started this one. That’s it right here.

Nope. It’s I started this one and it’s so good. I went and downloaded every book by this author. I should be able to quote you her name, but. yeah, if you’re looking for something about like which genus or which, like identity, there’s a whole like self care practices for the modern, which, that she wrote Erin.

Let me look, 

Tami: wait, I think I might have that, 

Gina: which is book of self care would be a perfect one for you, 

Tami: dude. I think I have that on my Kindle. 

Gina: Yeah. So good. I, yeah, I just love it. There’s like clear practices and there’s like a lot of spaciousness about like, instead of, I mean, at least this one talk, I could talk about witchcraft for a while, but instead of, I think a lot of people try and think about witchcraft, like a religious practice, like.

As a dogma. And there’s certainly plenty of that in paganism or in Wiccan practices, but witchcraft is just far more, there’s like just a lot of spaciousness in how you implement practices. And so a lot of it is right in alignment with self care stuff. So anyway, the green, which is good, I’m about to start the house, which I already read the, which is what self care cause that one was like so easy to me.

That’s great. Okay. And you love it when you find an author and then you want to just like deep dive into all their stuff. Okay. 

Tami: So how I found out about self-compassion as a practice and the book is I was reading Bernay Brown so closely that I was reading the footnotes and all of the reference points and the articles.

So what deep readings said what? Yeah. Okay. And now I’m super intrigued by your whole witchcraft thing. Okay. What’s your favorite book of all time? 

Gina: I’m nervous to say this because I’m just nervous about saying this, but when I read it’s more about the experience than anything, even about this particular book, the, when I read the red tent, the first time it like hit me.

So perfectly with where I was coming into being a woman, what I was thinking about like spiritually, I was traveling internationally. And so there were, there just were, I, it was the first book I ever read where. I stopped myself from it. I was like, devouring it. And then I realized I was like 12 pages from the end.

And I stopped myself and started crying about the book that, you know, over and had to like pace it out because I didn’t want my reading experience to end. Like that was my passion for that book. so even more than the book itself, like my connection to it, that’s that reading experience is like of all time.

My favorite reading experience. 

Tami: I love that. And so has it passed the rereading test? 

Gina: Is that it here to reread it? That’s some of I’m like nervous about it because I’m in a totally different place in my life. I mean, I read it 20. Three years ago now, you know, 

Tami: and what’s funny is I read, I started reading that book and was like, Hey, and then a few years later I picked it up and I was like, Oh my God, this is so 

Gina: good.


Tami: Like I think that’s one of those books that if you’ve tried it before, try it again. Cause it’s something that you do. I feel like you have to be in the right space in your life, in your, whatever for it to resonate. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like fireworks for me. 

Tami: What about, what’s your favorite personal development book?

I mean, 

Gina: we’ve mentioned this is not going to be shock to anyone who’s listened, but if you have not read Darren greatly. Everyone. It needs to be like mandated reading, I think for everyone in the world. That is so good about, just about shame, resilience, about personal relationship, but relationship to others.

I’m about healing trauma for so many people. I mean, it’s just phenomenal. and then if you want a couples one, my favorite couple stuff comes anything Astaire Parral writes. I love her writing and she’s got such a gorgeous accent. If you download the audio books, she reads them herself and it’s like yummy to listen to her talk through.

Tami: And she wrote mating in captivity. What is another one 

Gina: fairs? And you know, if you ever know anybody dealing with infidelity, that is the book I recommend for everyone about infidelity, figuring out, like, what is this about? Yeah. I heard her, 

Tami: I think I heard her on dear sugars talking with Cheryl strayed, how that go wrong, but just talking about the idea of infidelity, not being the end of a relationship, I was like, thank you.

Yeah, thank you. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: sure. It can be, but it doesn’t have to be. 

Gina: Yeah. I love that. She’s like, relationships are way more complex than we like to try and make them be. We like to think about it, like all this or not, or this, and it’s just not that way. Right. 

Tami: But also if you want to weigh out and your part, if you secretly want to weigh out and your partner cheats on you, that is sure.

Yeah. Everybody will be like, yeah. What a dog. Woo. Also. Yeah. Yeah, I have. I agree. Okay. 

Gina: Yes. 

Tami: Yes. I have feelings on that. I will, I’ll just leave it at that. We could have a whole other conversation just on that. and people’s minds will be blown. They’re like what? I’ve never thought about that like that before, like I had a conversation with a guest one time just talking about the shame around marriage and.

And divorced. And I was like, but what if we rebranded, divorces getting unmarried? 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. I talk about it as relationship transformation, because most of the folks, especially that I’m working with once you’re married, you have like a coal community or a financial network or children, and that family you’ve created, like you’ve got all this stuff you’ve created that stuff doesn’t end just because you legally.

Untied yourself. It can, but like often it’s more like, how do we want to relate to each other when we run into each other at the kids’ school? And how do we want to be when I, you have a new partner in, am I going to, how are we going to, how are we going to be, you know, around our, around the house that we bought together or the timeshare that we’re in?

Like, how do we want to be together? Even if we’re not together in the same context. 

Tami: and also what I mean, I, so one of the things that I wish that we did here in life is what about if every five years we sat down with our partners. And instead of having this pretend like, I got married at 23 and until we’re dead.


Gina: These are our agreements. They never change. 

Tami: Yeah. Obviously that’s a lie. So, but what if we ever sat down every five years and we’re like, are you in, are you out? What do you want? What do you don’t like re I call it renegotiating the terms, every relationship every few years, so that it gives everyone a chance to evolve.

and if you’re like, if you decide at the end of your fourth contract, so at 20 years you decide. This is a good one, right? You’re like I had a 20 year relationship and we decided to part ways. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: boy, that sure changes the dynamic of this. Like I’m nothing without you. And like, 

Gina: yeah. I, have an assessment tool that I asked my folks to do on an annual basis every year on their anniversary around then, where we look back on like what were cause if okay.

If we were making a. A thoughtful decision to create an, a business together with someone, it would be wise to hire a couple of expert coaches or accountants or lawyers, right. To look over some of our agreements in the beginning, premarital counseling right there. and, then we would meet every, at least every quarter, but like every year, or, and.

Every five years to reassess like renegotiate terms. Are you still a stakeholder in these ways or do you do these roles and responsibilities still fit for you? Do we need to outsource, do we need to hire a nanny? Do we need to outsource and, get a landscaping team? Do we need to, what are our goals now?

Like what are our measurables, all this stuff, right. 

Tami: And we call all the ancillary people in our lives. Our family success team. 

Gina: Oh, I love 

Tami: that. I love that. We need to bring it on too. Our family success team 

Gina: now, 

Tami: obviously 2020, or like, so I give up my whole family success team because we don’t, we’re not in, we’re doing the safety protocol of not, we have a bubble of three.

And so that’s it. So however we are still like, okay, so since we’re not outsourcing stuff, who, how are we taking care of house cleaning? And what we did is we put every single job on a PostIt. We have ended a post, we have it on a poster and we moved jobs and everybody is re is, 

Gina: and 

Tami: it’s not clean the bathroom.

It’s like scrub the sink, scrub the toilet scrubbed of this. And it’s like, Because it makes it to where every, have you heard of that book? Fair play.  it’s good because it’s about distribution of labor at home. And the idea is that each person takes one thing and they take it from idea all the way through a completion.

Gina: I love this. Right. 

Tami: And so, but I just want everyone to know. Like we can reframe things and make them work for us. One of my favorite books is the, the art of possibility. Do you know that book? So great. It’s by Rosenman stone, Zander and Benjamin Zander. And one of the chapters is called it’s all made up.

Okay. Right. And so that’s the thing, all of these contracts that we talking about are made up. So if the construct isn’t working for you, like change the thing. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. and we don’t like, I think what you were saying in the beginning, we just don’t check in. We pretend like something we agreed on when we were 24 is still going to be applicable when we’re 54 and we’ve gone through three career changes, two houses, a few dogs, you know, and like lost a parent.

Like our life is entirely different, right? Like you’ve got a different healthcare needs and. Our schedules are different. All of it. so of course we need to adjust. and I think all too often, folks, don’t very intentionally create those agreements in the beginning. We just kind of default into them.

Like somehow you ended up being the one who does all the laundry. We don’t know how we got there. And five years later, you’re like, why the fuck am I doing all the laundry? Why don’t you ever pick up a piece of underwear? Right. Like that kind of thing. But we’ve never talked about it to get there. And so we don’t know how to talk about it, to undo it, you know, or to redo it.


Tami: One of the funniest questions I get is your husband’s in charge of your daughter’s hair. And I’m like not the doing of it, but I don’t ever take her to her haircut. I also don’t take her to the dentist, but I’ll take her to the dentist. I don’t take her to get her haircuts. Like I just was like, that’s your job.

I don’t want to do that. 

Gina: Yeah, that’s funny the opposite. So he is the regular, like the daily routine ritual. He’s better at showing up for that stuff. And I’m the, like, excetera like the call, the gutter cleaning people. And have we changed the filters in the something and like all this like random one off all the time kind of stuff.

Cause that’s bad. I’m just better at tracking is my skillset. Right. And I mean, at least quarterly. One or the other of us is like, Hey, are you still good? Like, you know, come tax season. I do all of our taxes and that’s not in my skillset. And so he clears a bunch of space so that I can focus. Right. He takes on some other stuff.

Right. Like, but there’s this ebb and flow. And we’re checking in about like, does it still work for you to do the taxes? Are you okay with the fact that you’ve done all the dishes for 11 years? Okay. Alright, fine. 

Tami: Great. We had the, he did all the dishes for awhile because he, cause he was tired of me not doing it.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: And he finally was like, just don’t even bring them to the kitchen. I’ll take care of it. And I was like, this is like a dream come true. So then after a couple of years he’s like, I totally didn’t think you would take that seriously. And I was like, I just believe what you say. 

Gina: Yeah. We also have a rule about, if you’re not participating in the workload, you don’t get input in how it’s done.

Right? So like, I don’t do the dishes. I don’t choose the dish detergent. I don’t get to say it’s not being done on my timeline or how we load their unloads, the dishwasher or whatever. Like he does it. And if I want to start giving input, I can participate in that, in the workload. Right. 

Tami: That made me catch my breath.

Yes, it’s so funny. Cause a lot of times, especially when my daughter was little, we definitely were in the divide and conquer for a long time. And people were like, but how are you still doing X and Y? And I was like, I married a true partner. I trust him implicitly to make sure that she’s alive and well cared for in my absence.

However long that absence is because I married a grownup. 

Gina: Yeah, and that brings us back to both of what we were saying about boundaries and self care, right? Some of self care is saying, this is not mine, or I can’t do everything. Can’t always be done all my way, or I will stir myself crazy because I’ll feel like I need to control or have it done that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There’s not enough time to do all the things. You know, and I see a lot of folks like get so anxious and resentful because they are trying to do all the things all the right ways, all the perfect. Right. And there’s just not room for that. So some of really good self care is saying like, that’s not my thing.

Or I don’t want to take that on or taking that on will burn me out. It’s an energy suck. Right. So, 

Tami: it’s funny cause it’s on any gram one. So my any ground ones thing is like perfection and doing everything right. And so. But so my inner work is deciding when that makes sense. And when it doesn’t like, do I need an, a plus in laundry and a plus and bed making an, a plus and childbearing like, 

Gina: yeah, 

Tami: there’s not enough a pluses in the world.

So I need to pick and choose where I need to be strategic with my time and my energy. Yeah. So that I don’t turn into a giant asshole and ruin everyone’s life. I mean, that’s what it comes down to like, Nobody wants me to be a resentful jerk. 

Gina: Yeah, no, 

Tami: yeah. It’s funny. I’m laughing. Cause I’m like I almost said, especially me and I was like, Nope, I have some real big buy in for my family because the Enneagram is very new to our family.

And it’s only been a couple of years, but when I read like the description of the Enneagram in disintegration, My husband went, Oh my God, that’s never going to change. My daughter was like, are they following you around on a really bad day? And I was like, so we really need to take care of this so we can all be happier, like, okay.

Yeah, surrender into this. Isn’t going to change. So let’s make the changes that are necessary. I just I’m sitting here realizing that we’re celebrating a giant anniversary too. Like we, this weekend, 25 years of dating. 

Gina: Wow. Oh 

Tami: yeah. November 20, 20 years married. Whoa, 

Gina: cool. How are you going to honor that?

Tami: We’re going to get out of town because we’re escaping some heat. it’s so funny. The other day, my friend was like, are you getting a babysitter? I’m like during a pandemic? No, we’re not. how are we going to celebrate? We’re going to hang out. We’re going to go on a hike. We’re going to have a meal.

We’re going to laugh. We’re going to play games. We’re just gonna, like, I feel like we’ve been renegotiating our contract all along. Of our relationship. You know, we have family meetings every week, so we’re really trying to be intentional with how we are, being with each other in the close quarters.

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Even more so, since it’s funny, we have a tendency to do family meetings, infrequently, but the moment that Pam Demmick hit and we are in shelter in place because you know, California’s numbers are still going up. we have been doing family meetings every week. And it just now just comes down to, we ask each member of the family, what do you need this week to be successful?

What do you need 

Gina: this and that so that we 

Tami: can make sure that everybody’s needs are being met because when people’s needs, aren’t being met, it’s when, like all the stuffing falls out of their head and you’re like, Now we have to stop everything to do this. Yeah. And so we even asked for nine year old, like, what do you need this week?

And she’ll say, I need connection. Like this, I need attention like this. We’re like, okay. 

Gina: Yeah, 

Tami: thanks for being upfront because now we know what we need to give in order to get what we need for us. Which is you being more independent, you being a player in this family system. 

Gina: Yeah. I love that. The way that, that you frame those questions.

My three came out of my training with Bernay. And we ask, what is it success look like in this, whatever time period or experience, what are your hopes and what are your concerns? And then what is meaningful support gonna look like? Right. And that’s that like creates our whole, I do that in sessions.

I do that. Like, I mean, that frames out experiences so nicely, I think about 

Tami: right. 

Gina: what are my worries? and then, yeah. What does meanings of full support actually look like? Not just, what do I think it’s going to feel like, right? 

Tami: Yeah, totally. But what’s your favorite social media channel? Like what do you, where do you hang out on social media?

Gina: You got an Instagram. I just added Twitter or not Twitter. I just added pick, talk to my phone and I don’t quite understand it yet. But I think I will soon and I think I’m going to really like it. Okay. That’s my prediction. 

Tami: Okay. I’m sticking it. Cause you know, reels just came out on Instagram and I think that here’s my prediction.

I think it’s going to replace tick doc. 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: Yeah. Maybe not for the super young people, but those aren’t my people like yeah. You know what I mean? 

Gina: Yeah. 

Tami: But your people might be there. 

Gina: maybe I feel a little like, ticktock is kind of young. a lot, but, especially in queer community, 

Tami: that’s what I was going to say.

Gina: Young people tend to run a lot of things, especially stuff like that. And so, 

Tami: but you could be like an elder of the, of the education sort. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Okay. What’s your TV, favorite TV show past present and or future 

Gina: I’m on such. I came to this late, but I cannot stop. You’re catching me in the middle of a binge.

Like I watched an episode already this morning of shits Creek. I just, I came to it late and I’m in the third season right now and I. I don’t know why it took me so long, but it is right where I need to be right now. It’s so good. 

Tami: I watched part of the first episode, I was like, is this for me? Is it for me?


Gina: stick with it. I would even maybe just let yourself buzz through a fair amount of the first season, just to get the context, but by the second season, I mean, the actors, the like the comedy of, The Levy’s and, Catherine O’Hara right. That’s her last name? Yeah. 

Tami: she’s a genius. 

Gina: Brilliant. Yeah.


Tami: Beetle juice. That’s Catherine O’Hara is like, she made beetle juice. What it is. Yeah. Do you ever see that movie? 

Gina: Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s a thousand times slumber party. Cause as a kid, if you, if you want to skip ahead to just really get a good sampling, there’s an episode called family dinner in season two that I feel like if you don’t like that episode or you’re like, nah, after that, then it’s not for you, but 

Tami: okay.

Alright. I’m I find it hilarious. I’m here. I’m here for it. I, and I think I’m like, everybody loves it. I’m like, what? Why don’t I get it? Why isn’t it for me now? I know now I know that the first season sets up what is to come. I should not think that genius is going to happen right out of the gate.

Gina: Yeah. There’s a Turkey hunt episode there. I’ll send you a list. There’s a couple episodes. I’d watch that first for sure. If you want to 

Tami: make sense. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Gina, this is the one question that I would literally watch inside the actor’s studio for. I didn’t care about the, the craft of acting I wanted to know what is everyone’s favorite swear word, which, you know, what’s your favorite swear word, 

Gina: love the versatility of fuck.

I just, you know, I love that it is. It can show up for you just about anywhere you want it. I just watched, that, I don’t know if I’m supposed to say WAP video, right? Is that what? Yeah. and it’s not, swearing, but people have been talking about it because it seems so vulgar. And I’m like, actually, this is the same conversation people were having what salt and pepper, you know, 30 years ago, or whatever of like, Oh God, women of color have owned their sexuality and.

Naming explicitly what they want the way men have been for however long. Anyway. So that’s on my mind right now, I’m thinking about. Naughty talk. but my favorite ever moment of swearing, I worked at a Christian college for a little while that had some very, strict rules about behavior and what was appropriate or not appropriate.

Swearing was not appropriate. And one of my most pious young students, was playing a game. We were like, like camp. Kind of style games with teams and stuff, and she got stuck and couldn’t think of something and out of her mind, this like very collected. hi. Boundaried around her language.

Woman said, fuck me in the face 

Tami: was like 

Gina: the whole room, just like burst out because it was amazing. Then that could come out of her. It was so out of character. 

Tami: Right. You’re like, what did we do? yeah. Which he was just like, 

Gina: so stuck in wanting to win this game. I said, she shouted, fuck me in the face really loud.

And so forever. That’s one of my favorite, like exclamations, they haven’t found great uses for it all the time. Cause it feels like it’s the Supreme sort of, and I love it. 

Tami: Yeah. and again, given the context of where that came out, you’re like, I feel like my work is done here. I’m going to go. I’m going to is going to get fired for this.

It’s not useful. It’s probably going to be me that story with me. Forever. Yeah. I love it. I wonder how that story sits with her and her shame cycle 

Gina: of life. Yeah. Yeah. I have watched most of the students, I worked with back then unfold into. far less rigid, let’s say versions of themselves now.

And I’m happy to see that. not that religion is always bad. but rigidity doesn’t seem to serve anyone. I have yet to find a way that a lot of rigidity serves folks well, so it’s wonderful to watch them relax. Yeah. 

Tami: yeah. Yeah. And I want to say, but I know it can’t, it’s not true is that. Age, mellows people, but that’s not necessarily true.

I know some super uptight people in their seventies, so 

Gina: yeah. Yeah. I think one of the great things about this school is that they did have a very strong belief and, I think they would have said it was diversity. That led folks down a path to more social justice stuff and like exposure to more interactions with different people helps you relax into seeing, Oh, there’s lots of ways to do things my way.

Isn’t the only way it might be right for me, but, huh, that’s right for you. That’s interesting. Right. it like helps you soften, I think quite a bit. 

Tami: It’s so interesting. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area in the seventies and eighties. And so, I feel like that person, I’m the person who was like born on third base and they’re like, why isn’t everybody here?

Because I’m like, of course there’s this. And of course there’s that. And then I realized, wow. And also not that far from where I grew up. Cause I’m in Sacramento now. Like there is, there’s, it’s much more segregated in places and I’m like, wow. And this is in California. So 

Gina: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t, I, where I grew up, we, We had to drive.

Now, this isn’t true. They do have stoplights. We had to drive quite a ways is to practice in our driver’s ed class with stoplights. That was not a thing in my hometown, nor most of my home town in McComb County. and it might 

Tami: drive to stoplights to practice stopping and traveling 

Gina: in a city. We had to go to the city then.

Practice stoplights. And I remember learning parallel parking and thinking, when the fuck am I ever going to use this as a dumb skill, who’s going to need parallel parking. I was like, who needs this? And I, yeah, you need it, all the time. And, I, we had to go. my church group, I grew up in a UCC church and part of the confirmation process is, attending services and other denominations.

And so we had to drive to Chicago three hours away, to experience anything other than Catholic Lutheran or my UCC congregation. So, Yeah. I mean, it’s a lot of folks grow up in little bubbles where they don’t and even within cities, sometimes I know when I lived in Seattle, my bubble, I remember shocked, Al Gore didn’t win the election.

I was like, who voted for him? I don’t know anyone who didn’t vote for Al Gore. And clearly a lot of people didn’t, you know, like w but I was so shocked to my core. Because my bubble right. Had become pretty rigid about who I was or wasn’t interacting with. So I say, 

Tami: yeah. Dina, thank you for spending this morning with me.

I’m glad that we finally got to connect. Not just be a video, but now we actually talked to each other’s faces in real time. That is amazing. I love technology. 

Gina: I like sharing some real time with you and actually getting to see your face. It’s so affirming to when you have that feeling like you were saying, you have that feeling online of like, Oh, I think I would really like this person.

And then when you meet them in it, true. I really do like this. 

Tami: We have so much in common. You’re like, yeah. I’m super excited to get your book. Remind everybody, the name of your book 

Gina: love more fight, less a communication workbook forever couple. 

Tami: I just feel like there’s a period. Like I’m pretty sure everyone can use that, especially since we are so loving, we’re spending so much loving time with our people.

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tami: Maybe that can be on everyone’s holiday list. Maybe. I think I’m going to think I’m going to do a gift guide and put it on there because it’s fun. Yeah. Seriously. One of the things I have said repeatedly to my partner over the shelter in place time is, Oh my God. I’m so glad we got most of our shit worked out before we were forced to 

Gina: live 

Tami: in the 

Gina: same four 

Tami: walls for months at a time.

Yeah, that is not everyone’s experience. 

Gina: You will like, one of the compliments I’ve been getting about the book is, they, the publisher had an idea of how they wanted me to start it. And I was like, no, I want to start with like self-awareness before we get into any of them, the relationship B stuff.

Cause. Like we don’t have that. We’re not, there’s no use in trying to do relationship work. And so, you know, again, it like starts with self care, self relationship, self trust, self Acuff, accountability, all of that is so, so important. So, and 

Tami: don’t you think that’s important or how I’m reading that is? Is when you have one per one whole person. Plus another whole person, then you get a separate entity called a relationship. There’s no like becoming one and all that. So I’m like, I don’t want to be a fraction of something. And I certainly don’t want to try to fill up this other person as a fraction. I definitely need these things to be, I need there to be entities.

Gina: It’s that 

Tami: sovereignty piece that I’m like three nations. 

Gina: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, It’s just so clear to me, like our work is like really good buddies and I really, I love that I was able to have a call with someone where I took all these notes for myself. Now I have at least six more books that I want to read.

And, so really beautiful language. that I’m gonna, I love this. If you’re not running it’s running you. I wrote that down cause I have some thinking to do on that for myself. Yeah. Good. 

Tami: Alright, friends, go find Gina on the Instagrams. Go to, Hey gina.com. And until next week, remember that you matter too.

EP 65: Soul Care with Kirsten Johnson

EP 65: Soul Care with Kirsten Johnson

This week’s episode is all about soul care — self-care that takes care of the deepest part of yourself. I was so happy to talk about soul care with Curvy Yoga certified, community yoga teacher, Kirsten Johnson.

We talked about how we take yoga off the mat and spend much more time these days practicing the other limbs of yoga. We talk about using yoga as a tool to help alleviate chronic pain in the body and how we both feel we are aging backwards.

We talk about self-care being integrated into our daily lives by building our life from the ground up including how we create the lives exactly as we want using daily ritual practices.

EP 64: An Interview with Gender Equity Specialist, Emily Morrow Howe

EP 64: An Interview with Gender Equity Specialist, Emily Morrow Howe

This week’s episode is all about becoming a thought leader in your field with Silicon Valley’s Gender Equity Specialist, Emily Morrow Howe aka Femily. In our talk Femily talks about how she helps womxn go from the “couch to 5k” in terms of being a thought leader and expert in their field. 

As someone who has struggled with public speaking and putting myself “out there” I am so glad Femily is here to help! One of her morning practices that really caught my attention is to write down signs that things are working. I am adding this tidbit to my morning routine right now.

We talk about self-care being integrated into our daily lives by building our life from the ground up including how we create the holidays we actually want.